As we careen towards socialism, keep this in mind

[OnceWasLost]

I love how so many of the people on this board are more than willing to sacrifice their sons and daughters for "our freedom" (as if somehow our freedom hinged on who is in charge of Iraq?!), but ask those who have more than they need to give up some money to feed and give medical care to the poor (which is what socialism does), and everyone suddenly gets tight pocketed.

You could confiscate the total incomes of the top 10% and it won't pay the bills for welfare, money is not the problem, government is incapable of meeting these needs. If it could a $3 trillion budget could do it, yet many belly ache that it's not enough.

Taxation is compulsory, there is no option, yet it is never enough and the rich pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. I do "help the poor" we call it tithe, and most churches do the same, and do a much better job than the government. This is an answer to your scripture quote.

As for giving more to the government to see to it, I will not feel guilty for a moment in saying "enough is enough".

[WhitemoonG]

Professor: I think it goes without saying that believers in Jesus Christ, whose lives are transformed by their beliefs, will be open and involved in assisting the unfortunate or those without means in any way they can.

You also seem to assume that many, here or elsewhere, who seriously question socialism, are personally tightfisted and stingy, and I'm surprised to see your judgmental, dare I say holier than thou attitude.

How would you know how much time and money toward charitable causes I or anybody else here, or elsewhere contributes? Assuming you teach at a school or university, how many weeks or months per year do you teach for free, telling the school it can keep the monthly salary check? Or, how many weeks or months do you teach knowing in advance you won't get compensated? How many others here, or elsewhere do things like that, gladly and voluntarily, often trying to provide a witness to the Lord Jesus Christ, whenever the opportunity is, who still also seriously question (for good reason) socialism?


Why is it "more christian" to advocate governance that confiscates large percentages of a person's earnings for mandatory programs, usually poorly administered, that does a poor job of actually providing the supposedly free, and available to all, commodity?


Is it more christian to advocate emulating a system such as in Great Britain, which is in serious trouble of collapse and insolvency? Is the difficult access to health "care," for anything more than trivial, that usually always results from government controlled socialism, with at times scandalously, dare I say almost sinfully long waiting periods, more "christian?"

If anything, it's a double loser: health "care" is harder to get, harder to question, and involves fewer choices, and the simple fact is that often laziness is subsidized at the expense of the hard working, and diligent.
And, while mandated government confiscation poorly administers this inefficient, poorly responsive, and uncaring system, people now have much less of their hard earned income dollars for themselves or their families, and much less discretionary income for other things, INCLUDING charitable contributions and TITHING for one's church.

Would it be reasonable to conclude that this may be a significant factor behind the overall major decline in church attendance, church vitality, and the actual numbers of churches still open, all over Europe? I would certainly think so.

You probably noticed the study, released earlier this year, concluding that conservatives, including religious conservatives, "evangelicals,",, etc. are responsible for a much larger portion of all charitable contributions than religious and political liberals? Just more evidence that all the loud mouthed, moralizing liberals, the Streisands and the like, who have no problem loudly lecturing and moralizing about what should be done with everyone else's money (i.e. taxpayers), are, in general, the real tightfisted, stingy, or selfish ones.



I would propose you rethink conclusions about scriptural directives for our lives and interactions with others, that are not stating things about preferred national governance and fiscal policy, etc. or entrusting most of our means (involuntarily) to a secular government that usually makes things worse.

[dl4Him]

The "entitled" government confiscates it all to support society, a chunk of which is lazy and undeserving. Result? Fewer and fewer new products, fewer new life saving or life enhancing medical treatments, fewer new more comfortable bed mattresses, etc. etc. Society may "win," short term, especially the self inclined lazy, the spongers, but society overall loses bigger.


" lecturing and moralizing about what should be done with everyone else's money (i.e. taxpayers), are, in general, the real tightfisted, stingy, or selfish ones."


Whitemoon, your post is right on target and well stated. [I]A bit testy at times, [I] but great post.

The Lord himself said in 2 Thessalonians 3 : 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you; 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, 9 not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us. 10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

Edited to add: Of course this would exclude elderly, disabled, incompetent, yadayadaya....

[SummerSailing81]

Maybe (SOME..country club Reps)the Republicans should have been more responsible, and less greedy.

Instead, the wealthy shipped our jobs over seas,sold whatever they could sell, and spit on our nation and its people.

If we do go down the democratic socialist pathway, someones greed will hold a great deal of the responsibility.

When family's struggle to pay medical bills, and our jobs are at risk, can you blame them for wanting help when they need it?

Greeeeeeeed destroys good things.

Its fine to make a profit, but keep the opportunity's here, not bring them over there.

The Dems are just as greedy and just as guilty. It's ALL politicians, not just Republicans.

Personally, I'm sick of supporting people who can work, but instead have children out of wedlock to get welfare raises rather than pay raises from a job. I'm also sick of our hard earned tax dollars going to pay for illegal immigrants and their kids to have healthcare and all the other social services that should be ONLY for Americans. I don't see too much difference between Norway and the U.S. Both countries are supporting A LOT of people who should be working rather than getting government handouts at working taxpayer' expense.

[Stinker]

The Dems are just as greedy and just as guilty. It's ALL politicians, not just Republicans.

Personally, I'm sick of supporting people who can work, but instead have children out of wedlock to get welfare raises rather than pay raises from a job. I'm also sick of our hard earned tax dollars going to pay for illegal immigrants and their kids to have healthcare and all the other social services that should be ONLY for Americans. I don't see too much difference between Norway and the U.S. Both countries are supporting A LOT of people who should be working rather than getting government handouts at working taxpayer' expense.

I agree with most of what your saying. BUT, you seem to be lumping the middle and lower middle class in with the illegals, and those who are abusing the system. BIG mistake.

When the middle and lower middle class start to struggle, have a hard time paying there bills, and watch there jobs being givin away, they will vote Dem.

If the wealthy want to keep there tax breaks, they better start understanding this...OR...say hello to Hillary C. Your next prez.

PS(yes the dems are just as greeedy...but they hide it better)

[Issachar]

Both socialism and capitalism; welfare state and free enterprise state, do not exist. Everywhere is a blend of both. The ratios vary from country to country and time to time, but everywhere is a blend of both.

Neither system works in it's pure form at all and blends of them work for varying amounts of time, depending on the ratio.

The sin nature that mankind is born with is the antithesis of God's nature. God is a God of love. That is plain from Gen. 1:1 through the Revelation. The fallen human nature is selfish; again, the antithesis of God's nature. The opposite of love is not hate. It's opposite is fear. Hate is the fruit of what we fear. And what is the greatest fear that "self" has? That is won't get what it wants and therefore won't be "happy" or "feel good". "Self" dwells in the flesh and therefore, wants to make sure the flesh has what it wants. Whether that is achieved through socialism or free enterprise doesn't matter ... selfishness will kill either or, realistically speaking, a blend of them.

Why should we, in the US, pay taxes to have a fire department or a police department or sewers or water supply? How about if those that want those things, pay for those things? What if someone, and another and another .... paid ... say, $400 per year to a dept. that will come and put out a house fire should you have one? Don't want that insurance? Lose your house if there is a fire. Your neighbor pays but their house is at risk if yours burns? Let their fire dept. that they pay for come and keep their house safe until yours is gone and the fire is out. What if someone wants their house protected from fire but cannot afford the (hypothetical) $400 per year? We could socialize fire fighting where everyone pays even though only a small percentage of folks (relatively speaking) receive the benefit. All this same goes for police.

Don't want a sewer? Prefer a septic tank? That should be your choice. But it's not. If your community has septice tanks and switches to sewer systems, then you MUST tie into it AND pay thousands of dollars. Same with water. Prefer your well? Too bad. If others in your community want city water, you MUST tie into it and pay up.

No system is pure. Human nature (selfishness) will cause it to cease.

God will set up His kingdome one day and then we'll see how it should have been done all along. :)

Issachar

[Angyl]

If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? (NIV, 1 John 3:17)

That verse is NOT a call for government socialisim anymore than the verses about Thou Shall Not Kill are a call against the government imposing a death penalty. You're confusing individual responsibilities with Government ones.

I will have all of the socialists and leftists here in this thread note that the Government set up by GOD HIMSELF for the Israelites had not a lick of socialism in it.

[Angyl]

Don't want a sewer? Prefer a septic tank? That should be your choice. But it's not. If your community has septice tanks and switches to sewer systems, then you MUST tie into it AND pay thousands of dollars.

This is exactly what happened to us and it made (still makes) me SOOOOOO MAD to think about it. We bought land with a septic tank and planned to build a 2000 sq foot home on it. The city stepped in and said that we HAD to upgrade to THEIR sewer (single company monopoly) and pay THOUSANDS of dollars to do so. As a result we had to settle for less home to stay within our loan and wound up with just less than 1500 square feet.
To add insult to injury this sewer company is Nazi in its practices - we hate it. You don't pay them on time and they threaten to shut you off and have the city condemn your house.

I keep asking my wife:

"Where??? WHEN???? HOW did we come to a place in this "free" country where men were once [I]encouraged to go out to the middle of nowhere, stake some land and build on it to do what they want, to now where the government dictates EVERYTHING you do on "your" land and forces you to pay through the nose for its services whether you want them or not?

WHO VOTED FOR THAT TO HAPPEN?
WHEN WAS IT?

[Michelle95]

There's a lot of things that we are not allowed to vote on. :rolleyes

[WhitemoonG]

STINKER:


(1) What "tax breaks" for the wealthy are you referring to?

Considering that the top 2% of wage earners pay 50% of annual federal revenues, and the bottom 98% pay the other half, with the bottom 40% or so paying NONE;

that's right! the top 2% of wage earners pay HALF of all taxes,


explain why that might not be "paying their fair share?" And, explain

please just exactly what kind of "tax break" that might be.


This is not to mention a related fact, that the USA has the 2nd highest tax rates for CORPORATIONS in the entire industrialized world, which recent data says is soon to become the HIGHEST corporate tax rates in the entire industrialized world.

(2) As you feel that middle and lower class Americans who are struggling, and then see their jobs given away, will "vote Dem," do you see something ironically wrong with this picture?

It's sad, in my opinion, that all such decent, hard working citizens, often don't see, probably due to historically effective misinformation and class envy demagoguery, that by far the biggest culprit leading to jobs being "given away," which I assume you mean foreign outsourcing, is THE GOVERNMENT. You may think it unfair for some reason that some company executive is well off, but if you and others continue to buy into the same class envy demagoguery year in, and year out, and of course vote Democrat, because they're always "for the little guy," not grasping what the real problem primarily is, things will change little. The biggest factor leading to jobs being "given away," is the GOVERNMENT via stifling and always increasing regulations, mounting inefficiencies and lack of competitiveness due to HUGE additional annual costs to businesses via an unfair tort/liability system that Senate DEMOCRATS refused to allow any reforms, via increasing corporate taxes, already the 2nd highest in the world, and soon to be the highest, as well as increasingly ruinous total labor costs with ever increasing legally mandated benefits, etc. THESE are the things, thanks to the GOVERNMENT, that force many businesses to shift jobs elsewhere, or close their doors. And, although there are individual exceptions to everything, it has in general been congressional DEMOCRATS who typically want more and more regulations, more and more worker related mandated entitlements, and any chance to "soak the evil corporations" with yet higher and higher taxes, confiscatory taxes on future earnings, etc.

So, sadly, with this increasingly stifling regulatory, tax, and liability climate, many businesses have NO REAL CHOICE but to outsource jobs, or start going under. If not LESS jobs, it might soon be NO jobs.


Again, thanks to the GOVERNMENT, not Mr. Snothead CEO and his porsche. Sure, Mr. Snothead might actually be a jerk, and maybe he really doesn't deserve a porche. But, slapping him and turning in his Porche, will have minimal effect on the overall accounting and economic dynamics , and WON'T bring back any oursourced jobs, as it's a drop in the bucket.


Less stifling taxes, regulations, and reasonable wages with less tacked on growing various and sundry fringe benefit entitlements, and some realistic further tort reform, would all BRING JOBS BACK, as well as make them far less likely to leave in the first place.

Note, that all of these things are predominantly courtesy of congressional DEMOCRATS, and trying to reduce the burden on businesses imposed by these things, which could bring some jobs back, and keep them here, is usually bitterly opposed BY DEMOCRATS.

So, to summarize: via misinformed class envy DEMAGOGUERY, the hard working middle, lower middle class citizens rightfully concerned about their jobs, sadly "vote DEM," who continue to succeed at pretending to be the help out there, when in reality they, and their bigger government, and higher taxes ARE THE BIGGEST part of the problem.


It's not the wealthy refusing to give up their tax "breaks" that cause the problem, via already paying HALF of all taxes, it's the GOVERNMENT, and the party usually demanding more of it, and yet even higher taxes, that are the REAL PROBLEM.