As we careen towards socialism, keep this in mind

[Compatriot G]

Why is it so wrong to be wealthy? I have never understood this line of reasoning. If an individual works hard and prospers, then why is that so wrong? Why does he owe everybody else that didn't work as hard as he did? It seems to me that those that complain about this are really just jealous. Doesn't the Bible teach us to be content with what God has provided us? If we are rich, then praise God. If we are poor, then praise God.

[name1]

The weathly are failing in there responsibility, there getting tooo greeeedy(let them eat cake). So the results will be a bent towards socialism.

But... but... but... I thought it was anti-christian to have the billionaire club, pay taxes at the same rate as the rest of us... Sheesh, and not one took Warren Buffet up on his million dollar offer either... to prove they paid a higher tax rate than his secretary...

The basis of socialist policies is to help the "poor". The problem with that is the policies are never about helping the poor to better themselves...only to take from the "rich" and redistribute the "wealth".

I'd beg to differ. In fact, I'd surely be more inclined to say our American policies are more aimed at poor appeasement rather than giving them the means and tools to better themselves, as many socialist countries do.

[WhitemoonG]

Cory: Mr. Mann is just illustrating what is rampant in socialized societies, namely that it in many people's minds rewards laziness and malingering. Furthermore, when those who do contribute are burnt out and gutted from years of being exploited by the goldbrickers, what happens then? If the doers, people that actually do work, and the productive are ground down from working constantly for far more than just oneself (someone has to pay for all the lazy and scammers!), if the workers are exploited into near extinction, from being constantly overburdened, with their proceeds confiscated and transferred to all, who then gets it done?


As for Mr. Mann's "Treason against society and his fellow man," that's

a REALLY FLABBERGASTING thing to say! Ignoring for the moment that

what he describes is likely tamer than what half or more in your

DREAMLAND utopia would be doing under the radar,



You sound awfully close to pronouncing us "ENEMIES of the PEOPLE!"


Are you going to march us all, along with the entire city, on foot into the countryside, so you can direct our "re-education camp" like Pol Pot did, setting up the superior people's socialist republic of Cambodia?

[name1]

Sylvio Burlusconi came here for his heart surgery, he did not go to France, and they are right next door, why? Simple the best care is here, why? Because it is a free market and the government doesn't run it. Please post the article that shows the French system is the best in the world.

If we believe michael moore France is best, ya, but did you see the co pays in France? 10-40% of the cost and the elites still come here. Take a closer look at what people pay to support the system in taxes, please look. Look at how long you wait for care, especially serious care as in the UK.

I don't think anyone is advocating that a country has a better potential health care capability than America. Capitalism surely builds staggering avenues of potential... for those whom can afford it.

The problem, which is just sheer epidemic. Is how many people can afford it in America? Look at the bankruptcy filings for the past decade, much to many peoples chargin... its not "credit card" debt thats getting most people into trouble. Its staggering medical bills. There are far too many people, for our current system to continue whom simply can ill afford proper medical care.

[name1]

Why is it so wrong to be wealthy? I have never understood this line of reasoning. If an individual works hard and prospers, then why is that so wrong? Why does he owe everybody else that didn't work as hard as he did? It seems to me that those that complain about this are really just jealous.

I'm not certain anyone is stating its wrong to be wealthy per'se. Atleast, what I think most people have a problem with is a system in place. Where the mega'wealthy pay taxes at a far lower tax rate than even the poor in our society. A system, that through legal bribes, by the means of lobbiest groups have given them untold mountains of gold at the expense of the rest of society.

Surely, no ones under obligation to pay taxes at a higher rate than they're legally obligated. Surely, its ingenius of a person whom finds/creates a web of trickery to skew the system to his benefit.

Is it morally just though? Without even going into that ponder... I'll just leave it at this. Surely, while there are benefits for the mega'rich to be taxed less than the rest of society... that surely gives justification for disgruntlement and a heavier burden on that very same society.

BTW, working "hard" has nothing to do with how wealthy a person is, nor is how "smart" one works. Granted, self'made people generally work hard and smart, but luck and directions they pursued had a far greater affect. Than again, even in America, atleast according to Newsweek I believe... inherited wealth still had a shockingly disturbing percentage. Atleast, referring to the truely rich.. not the people doing well off making a few hundred k a year.

[name1]

Naive. Thy name is socialism.

I agree with the others, this is a fantasy land scenario.
For one, it depends on all men to forgo greed and evil and contribute equally.
Humans are by their nature sinful, and that WILL doom your utopian system.

Capitalism is not perfect, but it allows for the greatest degree of freedom for men.

Is there any such thing as "pure capitalism" or "pure socialism" or "pure communism"? So if we have a mixed economy, aren't we just disagreeing on how to go about the mixture? Or are you advocating abandoning our system for a libertarian style of society?

[Issachar]

These sort of discussions tend to involve a lot of mixing of apples and oranges.

If someone says help the poor, someone else will say why should I help the lazy. Well, God says to help the poor and considered the lazy as infidels.

Deuteronomy 15:
7 *If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 *But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth. ("wanteth" should read in American English as "lacks")

Ephesians 4:
28 *Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

These are examples from each Covenant; the latter including one of the reasons why we should work ... so we can give to him that needeth.

And then:

1 Timothy 5:
8 *But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Here we see one of God's statements concerning the lazy.

It is my belief that the poor are in two categories. Those that are poor due to laziness and those that are poor due to circumstances beyond their control. If some of you don't know anyone in the latter boat, you need to get out more, even it simply means moving about various circles within your own local churches.

Compatriot G, I didn't see where anyone thought it was a bad thing to be wealthy. If anyone here thinks that, they need to get more into the Word. There are many of God's people throughout the Word that were wealthy in this world's goods. What those with wealth need to keep in mind though is that even though there are certain things they did and certain choices they've made that are a part of the wealth accumulation, it was still done and allowed by the hand of God.

Deuteronomy 8:
17 *... My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
18 *But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, ...

God does not seem to expect us to just dole out bucks to every Tom, Rick and Harry along the path. All through the Word we are admonished to use discernment and wisdom in all our ways and dealings.

I do not believe, since wealth comes by the hand of God, that He places wealth into the hands of individuals just so that they can consume it all upon themselves. Often, His provision for the poor is by the hands of others. One with wealth does not have to live in abject poverty because he's given so much. Seek our Lord's will and He will direct our ways which should include giving. We have become partakers of the divine nature by virtue of being born again. God's nature is a nature of love and love always involves giving.

2 Peter 1:
4 *Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 *¶And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 *And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 *And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 *For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 *But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 *Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 *For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

"... ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." How cool is that?! :)

We need not worry ourselves over whether or not the gov't is going to do this or do that or socialize this thing or that thing ...... God is our provider. If the gov't takes money from us that is not their's to take, well ...... Jesus still says "give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." He didn't rally the boys to protest the oppressive taxes of the day. It's what we have when all is done and said that God looks to see what we have done with what we have in our hands. God is not our provider only if we live in a capitalistic system and so therefore, we have to fight and protest, etc. in order to keep that system so that He can still provide for us. He is our provider; period.

A couple of closing passages to think about:

James 2:
15 *If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 *And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 *Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1 John 3:
16 *Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 *But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 *My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 *And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

Issachar

[OnceWasLost]

The problem, which is just sheer epidemic. Is how many people can afford it in America? Look at the bankruptcy filings for the past decade, much to many peoples chargin... its not "credit card" debt thats getting most people into trouble. Its staggering medical bills. There are far too many people, for our current system to continue whom simply can ill afford proper medical care.

My point was since we have a free market system, and since medical professionals can excel, we have the best health care on the planet. Converting it to a government system would kill that over night.

The cost problem is a separate issue. Tort is taking it's toll, unpaid ER bills, over the top insurance rates for doctors and hospitals are enormous problems that jack up the cost, just to name a few.

A government system will ensure one thing, the quality of care will go down immediately. Government run systems have to ration care or people clog the system every time they get a runny nose. Long waits are a disincentive for those problems, so long waits is what you get.

Cost is a real problem, but given the options I would like to see the government fix the problems I listed above. The alternative is have the people who run Amtrak run the health care system here. :fear

[Issachar]

A government system will ensure one thing, the quality of care will go down immediately. Still not seeing a solution, I'm thinking the inverse of your statement, for the 50 million uninsured, the quality would go up. :)

Issachar

[OnceWasLost]

Is it morally just though? Without even going into that ponder... I'll just leave it at this. Surely, while there are benefits for the mega'rich to be taxed less than the rest of society... that surely gives justification for disgruntlement and a heavier burden on that very same society.

The tax system is what is immoral. The mega rich often get around the tax problem by living off of dividends, not income. ted kennedy is the poster child of this, his income tax is based on his Senatorial salary and not the kennedy fortune which really pays for his needs.

A moral system is that we all pay the same rate on what we consume. Those who spend more pay more. Good for the kennedy's on their success, just tax them and people like them based on what the buy. That guy and the rich politician like him always belly ache about the inhumanity and treatment of the "poor" and yet he sleeps at night never doing what needs to be done to correct the problem.

Even though I think buffett is a clueless individual, politically, I applaud his success. For him to whine about the tax system is just stupid, since his conclusion is more class warfare, "make the rich pay more" garbage we are treated to, by his ideological brethren.

The tax burden is massive on the people who are situated between the high incomes, and trust fund, dividend people. They are the people who are getting hammered by the system, and paying the vast majority of income taxes. Whitemoon post on this earlier, so look at post #30 or the gory details

The edwards, kennedy, buffett, et al types have no business talking about the subject, since they have insulated themselves from high taxation. I wish someone would point that out, to them, the next time they open their mouths and read from II Demagogy ch.1. Sad truth is most people have no clue that they are not the "mega rich" as income tax is concerned.