The Shroud of Turin: Is it Authentic?

[freyasfav]

Yes he was a Jew. I often am not aware that one is Jewish unless they make it known, look white enogh to me. Even Iranian descent is considered Caucasian because the area was settled by the nomadic Teutons as with Europe. I believe we attain new bodies in heaven, personally, & remaining scars would be quite a tie to our sinful life during our eternity in the next. What's more, I like to think burns, limbs lost in war, or what not would be made whole in paradise. Oh, as for the disciples, they didn't recognize because he took a different form. As the angels in Sodom, only spiritual beings are allotted this attribute in the Bible. Since Jesus was already dead he was no longer a mere human at this point & took another face. He may show us the scarred figure in heaven, but I think his TRUE form will be flawless.
My Apologies, while using Antitox's computer I forgot to log out & in under me. This was freyasfav's post & opinion, how embarrasing!

[WillieJ]

Mary didn't recognize Jesus because He then had a resurrection body, a different body, and the only things the same are the scars on the hands and feet and the wound in His side for a memorial so to speak. The two on the Emmaus road didn't recognize Him either. Come to think of it the disciples didn't recognize Him when He walked on the water and came to the boat where they where.
The unsaved today don't notice or recognize the Lord Jesus, they know nothing about Him unless the Holy Spirit opens their understanding etc.

[Steve53]

Hey everybody! :hat

For the second time in this thread I wish to state for the record that I don’t KNOW who’s image is on the shroud. :idunno

I was somewhat dismayed however that a number of the comments made, IMHO, on one hand seemed to be very dismissive and intolerant of the entire topic, and, on the other hand, seemed uniformed at the very least. :ohno

I for one am still interested in what others have to say and would like to see the topic expounded upon (without derision) for the educational benefit of all concerned.

Educational benefit?

Yes. :thumb Not only from the standpoint of the dangers of idol worship, (How would an image of our Lord be a bad thing if it were not worshipped unto itself?) but also from the viewpoint of: what if the shroud IS authentic? Does the shroud make for a good “silent” witness? :preach

Some say yes, others, no. Fine. WHY do you say yes or no? What have you heard or read that convinces you one way or the other?

Some, such as myself, aren’t sure one way or the other, but are interested nonetheless simply because it is a fascinating relic. A relic that could possibly be real, since, IMO anyway, there is thus far no absolutely unimpeachable empirical evidence available that puts the question to rest. And, IMO there probably never will be such evidence put forth. For the preceding reason I will never be certain it’s the image of our Lord unless and until I hear the answer to that question from Him.

So to add to the discussion I thought I might contribute the following for everyone’s consideration and edification: :hug

Christ’s internment was very hasty as the hour was late, the Sabbath was about to begin and Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus did not have very much time to fully prepare Christ for burial in the full Jewish tradition. That’s probably why the wrapping of strips of cloth and the anointing of oils and perfumes had to wait……

Luke 23:50-56
50And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Luke 24:1
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.


For those posters who have inquiring minds - -

Here are just a few resources available for a broader understanding of the mystery of the shroud.


Shroud of Turin Apologetics –

http://www.shroudstory.com/

http://www.shroud.com/menu.htm

http://www.sindone.org/en/welcome.htm

http://www.shroudforum.com/

http://www.historicaljesusquest.com/


Biased Shroud of Turin Skeptics –

http://skepdic.com/shroud.html

http://www.mcri.org/home/section/63-64/the-shroud-of-turin

http://www.creationtips.com/shroud.html

http://www.physorg.com/news4652.html

http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic/shroud/

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2005/20050210.htm


Mostly Unbiased Skeptic/neutral Overviews and news articles–

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3624753.stm

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/03/21/shroud-turin.html

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/shroud_of_turin/index.html

[KaiafromBergen]

my only thought is that one would think that the bloodtype would be O positive...the universal donor....

Um, I think O negative is the universal blood donor . . . but that is neither here nor there . . .

I think the Shroud is not real for the same reason we do not know exactly where the the tomb of Jesus is located, have authenticated pieces of the original cross, the Ark of the Covenant, or the cup of the Last Supper. He knows the human heart and the fact that people are so focused on what our five senses tell us, that it would be a stumbling block, an opportunity for idolatry to take the place of "Faith Alone." Galatians 3:11 "The just shall live by faith."

[House of Light]

[QUOTE=steve53;784272]

Not only from the standpoint of the dangers of idol worship, (How would an image of our Lord be a bad thing if it were not worshipped unto itself?) but also from the viewpoint of: what if the shroud IS authentic? Does the shroud make for a good “silent” witness? :preach





Um....because people will always...(history and the Bible prove this) worship an idol over God. Why would the Lord leave a stumbling block such as that? As for "relics".....they come to be worshipped and held in "high esteem". For example, in the Catholic Church in our small town(Not the church I go to, btw) there is a bone of a "saint" built into the altar. :ohno We focus on these relics instead of Christ...who, btw, gave the Holy Spirit as our witness, not some piece of cloth...which was "man made". Anything that takes our focus away from the real Jesus, to an "image" on a cloth is not from God.










[

[I'mready]

[QUOTE=steve53;784272]

Not only from the standpoint of the dangers of idol worship, (How would an image of our Lord be a bad thing if it were not worshipped unto itself?) but also from the viewpoint of: what if the shroud IS authentic? Does the shroud make for a good “silent” witness? :preach

Um....because people will always...(history and the Bible prove this) worship an idol over God. Why would the Lord leave a stumbling block such as that? As for "relics".....they come to be worshipped and held in "high esteem". For example, in the Catholic Church in our small town(Not the church I go to, btw) there is a bone of a "saint" built into the altar. :ohno We focus on these relics instead of Christ...who, btw, gave the Holy Spirit as our witness, not some piece of cloth...which was "man made". Anything that takes our focus away from the real Jesus, to an "image" on a cloth is not from God.
[



Yes - consider the Source!!?

[Steve53]

[QUOTE=steve53;784272]

Not only from the standpoint of the dangers of idol worship, (How would an image of our Lord be a bad thing if it were not worshipped unto itself?) but also from the viewpoint of: what if the shroud IS authentic? Does the shroud make for a good “silent” witness? :preach


Um....because people will always...(history and the Bible prove this) worship an idol over God. Why would the Lord leave a stumbling block such as that? As for "relics".....they come to be worshipped and held in "high esteem". For example, in the Catholic Church in our small town(Not the church I go to, btw) there is a bone of a "saint" built into the altar. :ohno We focus on these relics instead of Christ...who, btw, gave the Holy Spirit as our witness, not some piece of cloth...which was "man made". Anything that takes our focus away from the real Jesus, to an "image" on a cloth is not from God.

I think you changed the premise of the question. :hat

How would an image of our Lord be a bad thing if it were not worshipped unto itself? IOW if the image/cloth brought people to Christ (as it already has) why would that in and of itself be a bad thing?

You stated that people will always worship an idol over God - but as presented in this scenario - the image is not to be worshipped nor the medium the image appears on (the cloth). To restate: Jesus is worshipped, not the image or the cloth.

For the scenario as stated, I wanted to keep the parameters very narrowly defined so as not to hijack the thread.

Also I believe it can be argued successfully that Jesus did leave us something tangible of Himself here on Earth. The Holy Bible. His Word.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Do people idolize the Bible?

I guess I just really have a hard time with idol worship in general. I could never worship an object so I can't really comprehend how anyone else could find some mystical power or deity in an image, statue, carving, etc.

John 20:29

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Anyway I guess we all pretty much agree that idol worship is not a good thing. :thumb

But, again, what about the "silent" witness of the shroud for the doubting Thomas' out there?

The shroud itself, real or fake? And why?

[AnotherOldGuy]

The shroud is inconsistent with how Jesus was buried according to the Gospels. Jesus was wrapped in strips of linen cloth.

I agree with Kenneth's posting that it is inconsistent with John's account in scripture.
No, John does not say "strips of linen". The greek has word that means 'piece of linen'. The word is plural, so there were more than one - but the shroud does not mean there weren't other pieces of linen.

Personally, I would kinda like the shroud to be genuine, but I don't believe it is.

[LindaLee]

Christ burial clothes were done as most were in that day...in strips soaked in a resin, perfumed ointment and applied like the Egyptians did their dead. Christs' burial clothes were soaked in Myrrh, Frankinsense, which are heavy perfumed oils, and when dried they are hard, unlike the shroud which isn't. There was a seperate piece of cloth that was for the face/head. Remember the cloth used to cover Jesus' face was folded, the others was were not folded...they couldn't be folded as they were hardened.

My opinion is that the shroud is a fake.

[Steve53]

Christ burial clothes were done as most were in that day...in strips soaked in a resin, perfumed ointment and applied like the Egyptians did their dead. Christs' burial clothes were soaked in Myrrh, Frankinsense, which are heavy perfumed oils, and when dried they are hard, unlike the shroud which isn't. There was a seperate piece of cloth that was for the face/head. Remember the cloth used to cover Jesus' face was folded, the others was were not folded...they couldn't be folded as they were hardened.

My opinion is that the shroud is a fake.

What you described is a very time consuming process. If it had been completed before the Sabbath, why would Mary M and the other women feel the need to return to the sepulchre with the spices and ointments?