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Steve53
November 29th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Who’s "wanting to believe the image"? :scratch Forgive me, but I feel or detect perhaps some condescending in your comment......


Yes I'm a little saddened about the condescention here also.

You both are mistaken. :hat Absolutely no condescension intended nor implied, only words of caution. And, while I am not trying to patronize anyone here, I stand by my earlier comment. Simply wanting (or wishing) something to be true does not make it so.

Too many people are too quick to believe we have a "picture" of Jesus and that's a very dangerous thing indeed. :ohno

Contrary to the opinions previously put forth concerning evidence proving authenticity, the fact is, to date, no one has unequivicoly proven the shroud is or is not authentic. That's why there is a debate in the first place.

For more clarification on my thoughts on the shroud and the manner in which it is being discussed, please look up-thread (towards the first few pages). :hug

Caver
November 29th, 2009, 05:29 PM
the facts are subjective and manipulative
faith comes by hearing the word of God, not seeing evidence
blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe

Which facts are subjective and manipulative Buzz??

The fact that the absolute leading expert in the field says this is defiantly the finest of linen and of no doubt from the 1st century?

Faith comes from many ways, reading in my case.

Many testimonials are available from born again Christians that are scientist who came to faith based on what they found in the scientific world which caused them to seek the Word and then they were saved. Who cares the path as long as they arrived.

Neither of us ever expected this to turn out to be anything over 20+ years ago when we first started to individually follow it. It would turn out to be a hoax, we both felt sure. Over the years it gained and lost in creditability but the preponderance of evidence has shifted to creditable.

Of course it should never be the basis of our faith. Neither of us have any internal wishes for it to be one way or the other. But, neither or us are going to dismiss either this or any other artifact out of hand.

Ya gotta admit, many archaeological "confirmations" seem to be showing up in these, the last days.

Buzzardhut
November 29th, 2009, 09:14 PM
Which facts are subjective and manipulative Buzz??

The fact that the absolute leading expert in the field says this is defiantly the finest of linen and of no doubt from the 1st century?

Faith comes from many ways, reading in my case.

Many testimonials are available from born again Christians that are scientist who came to faith based on what they found in the scientific world which caused them to seek the Word and then they were saved. Who cares the path as long as they arrived.

Neither of us ever expected this to turn out to be anything over 20+ years ago when we first started to individually follow it. It would turn out to be a hoax, we both felt sure. Over the years it gained and lost in creditability but the preponderance of evidence has shifted to creditable.

Of course it should never be the basis of our faith. Neither of us have any internal wishes for it to be one way or the other. But, neither or us are going to dismiss either this or any other artifact out of hand.

Ya gotta admit, many archaeological "confirmations" seem to be showing up in these, the last days.

not to rehash the old argument......, Jesus was beaten beyond recognition, beard ripped out, the face on the cloth is recognizable, the burial head cloth was separate, this is one full piece
the skinny little man on the cloth does not represent a person who went through what Jesus experienced, lots of little debatable details, but what it boils down to is people want to dedicate a religious faith in the image, facts will not change personal beliefs
the fact it can also be reproduced today makes it suspect

Sundial
December 16th, 2009, 07:26 AM
Jerusalem tomb discovery casts further doubt on Turin Shroud


Archaeologists say they have discovered the first known pieces of a burial shroud from the time of Jesus in Jerusalem, casting doubt on the authenticity of the Turin Shroud.

Published: 10:21AM GMT 16 Dec 2009

Researchers believe the fabric of the fragments, the first of their kind to be discovered in Jerusalem, are of a different weave to those of the Turin Shroud, hailed by many as Christ's burial cloth but dismissed by others as a fake.

Radiocarbon tests on artefacts found in the cave, in Jerusalem’s Old City, prove almost beyond doubt that it was from the same time of Christ's death.

It was made with a two-way weave – not the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud, which textile experts say was introduced more than 1,000 years after Christ lived.

Professor Shimon Gibson, the archaeologist who discovered the tomb, said ancient writings and contemporary shrouds from other areas had suggested this design, and the Jerusalem shroud finally provided the physical evidence.

Last month a Vatican researcher said she had found the words 'Jesus Nazarene' on the shroud, proving it was the linen cloth which was wrapped around Christ's body.

Barbara Frail said computer analysis of photographs of the shroud revealed extremely faint words written in Greek, Aramaic and Latin which attested to its authenticity.

The new shroud was found around the remains of a man in a sealed chamber of a burial cave in the Hinnom Valley overlooking the Old City of Jerusalem by archaeologists from the Hebrew University and the Albright Research Institute, both in Jerusalem.

The Hinnom Valley has long been associated with death. The Gospel of Matthew calls it Akeldama or 'Field of Blood.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/6824030/Jerusalem-tomb-discovery-casts-further-doubt-on-Turin-Shroud.html

:scratch

rreighe
December 16th, 2009, 07:35 AM
thats sooo cool!

cheymat
December 16th, 2009, 09:10 AM
The new shroud was found around the remains of a man in a sealed chamber of a burial cave in the Hinnom Valley overlooking the Old City of Jerusalem by archaeologists from the Hebrew University and the Albright Research Institute, both in Jerusalem.


I dont get that part. :scratch So what are they going to say that that was Jesus's body that they found? :idunno

Blood Covered
December 16th, 2009, 09:26 AM
Thats what I was wondering also Cheymat:scratch

Hootmon
December 16th, 2009, 09:30 AM
I dont get that part. :scratch So what are they going to say that that was Jesus's body that they found? :idunnoThey can be reasonably certain that the tomb is about the right age. They didnt say anything about its occupant as far as I can tell.

Sundial
December 16th, 2009, 09:35 AM
I suspect they found a shroud belonging to someone else--not Jesus. :)

The Shroud of Turin contained weaving from a later period to repair the damage it sustained in a fire. :nod The repaired area was initially tested using carbon dating which indicated the date from the Middle Ages--not 2000+ years ago. However, a fiber taken from the original weaving has been tested and it was found to have been much older than initially thought. :preach

drjoshua
December 16th, 2009, 09:41 AM
"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."
Matthew 24:23-28