The Battle of Gog and Magog

[bek1]

Caveman-Totally makes sense :), and I used to feel the same way, but I do believe that very shortly after Christ's return to earth, but before He has crushed all the gentile world power, Israel can be living securely with Jesus in her midst, (brought back to her land by Him) while He is still dealing with the details of dismantling (sp?) gentile world power. This is why I think Gog could be after Jesus returns but before He is done bringing everything under His rule.

[4EverHis]

bek1-
But my tentative view with your above question is that I can see Jesus returning, restoring Israel...bringing her from hiding back into the land of Israel...they are now restored, and Jesus in their midst. (so "safely and securely" can be an immediate overnight condition once Jesus is in their midst IMO)

Taking your "idea", the problem is, the Ezekiel 38 attack, happens when "them that are at rest, that dwell safely," (Ezekiel 38:11).



I think there are numerous wars that encompass all of the last war (Armageddon)

Scripture please :)


I think the destruction of the antichrist is part of the whole matter when it comes to bringing an end to the time of the gentiles. I don't see this being a 1 day event, but a process of wars and fighting.

Scirpture please :)


Until EVERYTHING is under Jesus. Remember he comes and rules with an iron scepter (Rev 19:15 shows this in conjunction of striking down the nations..which I don't see why this cannot be in the beginning of His rule during the 1000 years or in between tribulation and 1000 year reign. )


It is the beginning of His rule, at the end of the Trib :idunno


I think there is room for Israel to be brought back, restored and in a redeemed relationship with God, and "recovered from war" (Ezek 38:8), once again ALL of them in their land with Jesus in their midst and the wars of Armageddon and the nations still being put down and crushed...those that continue to come down to fight Israel.

:scratch Ezekiel 38:8 is God talking about Gog and his cohorts coming against His people, indicating to us that this will occur when Israel has been restored as a nation. Which we know, has already occurred.


So they are recoverd from war and safe and secure in that they are in their land with Jesus and they are "secured" since the enemy that was there was crushed and they have their land back as their own. But I think there is room to allow for other gentile nations that weren't IN Israel at that time to still come against Israel after they have secured their land again with Jesus in their midst. (it would make sense that they would be unsuspecting of an attack in this case)

Again, they are "at rest, that dwell safely," is occurring before the Ezekiel invasion. As for "other gentile nations", Gods Word, in context, says nothing about any other nations, than the ones He names, and Jesus is not "in their midst". He didnt forget, He knows perfectly well the names of all nations.


Another interesting thing to note....just to note...not sure if I am totally set on this, but remember when I suggested using scripture to interpret scripture.

Using "Scripture to interpret Scripture" is not always applicable at all. Predominantly, God just says it like it is :idunno There are those that search all sorts of references, attempting to transform His Words to fit their "ideas". Example selecting just one word out of a verse, looking up the Hebrew meaning, and stating that it changes the meaning of the verse. However, what they are unaware of, is that with the Hebrew language, the surrounding words influence the overall meaning of the verse. God is a loving Father, we are His children. As a Loving Father, you make it simple for a child to learn, not complicated, He wants us to “get it”…to understand. Confusion is not of Him.


There is another (totally separate war) at the end of the 1000 year reign, when Satan is let loose. I think most of us agree this happens, and is totally separate than the end of the tribulation war/wars. But one thing to point out in that particular passage is it appears to me that Gog/Magog is defined....not "apart" of that war, but defined as actually, literally meaning "the nations in the four corners of the earth" (see Revelation 20:8)

Forgive me, but please provide the reference you have for Gog of Magog, meaning "the nations in the four corners of the earth". :scratch Since Gog is a title and not the name of a person, we do not know from these verses, the specific identity of Gog. Gog - a title like Czar, Pharaoh referring to a leader.
However, we can know that Gog will be "of the land of Magog" , and will be a future "prince of the lands of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal". We also know that Gog will be the leader of a large multinational military invasion force which will be brought forth by God to invade Israel at some time in the future.The identification of Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal can be determined from the fact that these tribes of the ancient world once occupied the areas of modern day Russia. There are survivors from the Ezekiel 38 battle, that God allows to live, they flee. In Revelation, they have all just regathered again to come against God.



Seems that Gog/Magog actually means all the nations of the earth in this passage, that this is the term used by the Holy Spirit to describe the nations. So if this is the case there, then wouldn't it be wise to consider that in other eschatological prophecies in Scripture (the same Spirit has breathed it all right?) that when Gog/Magog is referred to it means the "nations of the four corners of the earth" based on the definition actually given in Rev 20)

Forgive me, but Scripture clearly states that satan is let out of "prison", and he deceives nations, including Gog and Magog, to battle. What reference do you refer to that Gog of Magog means " nations of the four corners of the earth" :scratch
Revelation 20:7-8
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8.And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.



Just a thought I started to consider last night....it just stood out all of a sudden. And although there are specific nations that the Holy Spirit lists in Ezek 38-39 that are apart of this particular battle, it also is stated more than once in the same passage "and many nations" or "the nations" showing that those listed, aren't the ONLY ones in the battle.

Holy Spirit? It is God speaking directly to Ezekiel, not the Holy Spirit, this is the OT. Gods Word says "many people" not "many nations".
Ezekiel 38:9
9.Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
Ezekiel 38:6
6.Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
Ezekiel 38:15
15.And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Ezekiel 38:22
22.And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Ezekiel 39:4
4.Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

(Ezek 38:6, 38:9, 38:15, 38:22, 39:4, etc..) So it seems there are many gentile nations involved that aren't mentioned by name, with God including the names of a few that will be involved, and the names of a few that won't approve and be involved..


:scratch God knows the names of nations involved, and names them. Again, there are "many people" not "many nations". He didnt leave anyone out. :)

[4EverHis]

I get the feeling that there is some other view that takes both sides of this and makes it all work. One thing I have learned is that prophecy is not always as straightforward as some would like to make it. Take Isaiah 61 for example. Jesus quoted that and stopped mid sentence and told his listeners that that part had been fulfilled. We have been waiting almost 2000 years for the rest to be fulfilled. I could see tons of debates between scholars of those days trying to "chart out" that passage. I bet nobody got it right. There really was no way to see that pause there. Is it possible that Ezekiel 38 and 39 covers the entire tribulation period? :idunno

No it doesnt. It is the reason for the signing of "a covenant with many" Daniel 9:27 :)

[4EverHis]

great debate here, mind if I jump in? :D

Gog/Magog couldn't possibly be the same time as Armageddon IMHO

Isreal is dwelling safely when Gog invades in Ezekiel 38:14

During Armageddon, the faithful remnant of Israel has been in hiding for 3.5 yrs in Bozrah Micah 2:12

point being, I don't see how there could be ANY peace and safety after 7 yrs of tribulation let alone even after the AOD at the half-way point,

so my conjecture is Gog/Magog happens pre- AOD
and likely before or very early in the 70th week, because I think this is what will "cleanse" the holy ground and make way for the 3rd temple :D

do I make sense here?


Its "pre" Trib, the reason for the signing of a "covenant with many". :)

[4EverHis]

Caveman-Totally makes sense :), and I used to feel the same way, but I do believe that very shortly after Christ's return to earth, but before He has crushed all the gentile world power, Israel can be living securely with Jesus in her midst, (brought back to her land by Him) while He is still dealing with the details of dismantling (sp?) gentile world power. This is why I think Gog could be after Jesus returns but before He is done bringing everything under His rule.

This is Jesus, the Son of Almighty God we are speaking of here. His judgment will be swift and intense. He is not coming back, walking around, gathering remnant Jewish Believers, He is executing swift judgment. "He is still dealing with the details of dismantling gentile world power"? :scratch There is no "still dealing", it is done. He is the Son of God, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, everything already is "under His rule". He kills them immediately, with just "with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse". Jesus uses the Word of God to defeat His enemies, Most of us have experienced the cutting edge of the Word of God in our lives (Hebrews 4:12,13). Jesus' words of judgment will kill the soldiers gathered at Armageddon. It is done without Him even dismounting. There are no more battles, wars after this.

[JustinSolo]

No it doesnt. It is the reason for the signing of "a covenant with many" Daniel 9:27 :)

You state this like it is proven, but it is conjecture. There is no verse that states that the Gog/Magog battle is the reason for the covenant. We don't even know for sure it is a peace treaty.

The only scriptural reason I can see so far for arguing for this battle towards the beginning of the 7 years is because Israel must dwell safely/securely in the land. Is there any more?


This is Jesus, the Son of Almighty God we are speaking of here. His judgment will be swift and intense. He is not coming back, walking around, gathering remnant Jewish Believers, He is executing swift judgment.

Swift judgment can still take time. The fall feasts cover 15 days. So for Jesus to fulfill all that in his second coming, means he will be walking/riding around doing something for those days. But who knows...there is no detailed itinerary of Jesus' return...just some highlights. Anything said concerning this is most likely speculation on both sides. Lots of details are left out.

[Gideon300]

You state this like it is proven, but it is conjecture. There is no verse that states that the Gog/Magog battle is the reason for the covenant. We don't even know for sure it is a peace treaty.

An event has to occur that points Israel's heart back to God and reestablishes their Old Testament Covenant, and that is exactly what is described in Ezekiel 38 & 39.


The only scriptural reason I can see so far for arguing for this battle towards the beginning of the 7 years is because Israel must dwell safely/securely in the land. Is there any more?

This is a pretty big BUT, though, Justin...

Israel also burns the fuel for 7 years, and cannot do this during the tribulation. Israel could do this for the first 3.5 years, but after 3.5 years the AOD happens and Israel flees. This event can't happen at the end because they are dwelling safely in the land, so these two points in the scripture right here tell you it is not during the tribulation.

[JustinSolo]

I went back and reread Ezekiel 38, 39 tonight. Some things that came to mind...

Verse 38:4 specifically mentions horses, horsemen, and swords. If we are to take the nations mentioned literally, then it would seem only fair to take this at face value. If so, I see this as support for having the battle at the end of the trib. Otherwise you need some other catastrophe to happen first. Or you symbolize the weapons...but the writer could easily say "weapons of war" or something like that to cover tanks, missiles, guns, bombs.

Verse 38:11,14 talk about dwelling safely. We mostly agree this is a stronger argument for having the battle towards the beginning of the trib.

Verse 38:20 talks about all men on the face of the earth shaking at his presence, an earthquake, hailstones, etc. This sounds a bit global. To me it has strong ties to the 7th bowl. I'm not saying it is conclusive. Do the supporters of an early Gog/Magog battle line that up with any of the events of Revelation?

Verse 39:7 says the nations will know that I am the Lord, the HOLY ONE IN ISRAEL. Notice it says IN Israel. Not OF Israel. Sounds to me like Jesus has returned and is executing judgment in person. The first part of that verse also says that God will no longer allow Israel to profane his name any longer. How is this possible at the beginning of the Trib? Only the sealed 144,000 would be cooperating with that statement at first. Two thirds is also yet to be wiped out. This all sounds like it belongs near the end of the trib after they look on Him whom they pierced.

We need answers. :panic :pound

[JustinSolo]

This is a pretty big BUT, though, Justin...

Israel also burns the fuel for 7 years, and cannot do this during the tribulation. Israel could do this for the first 3.5 years, but after 3.5 years the AOD happens and Israel flees. This event can't happen at the end because they are dwelling safely in the land, so these two points in the scripture right here tell you it is not during the tribulation.

It is a big but...and I acknowledge that. But I also see big buts for having the battle before/near the start of the trib.

According to what you just said then you need the battle to happen 3.5 years before the Daniel 9 covenant. I am not a fan of huge gaps between the rapture and the start of the trib. In my view when the church is gone the 70th week should start almost immediately, otherwise you have this limbo where there is no "witness" for Christ on the planet. No 2 witnesses, no sealing of the 144,000 jews, and no church. I can't see that gap being very long at all.

So we both agree that burning weapons during the 7 years is hard during the trib. That is why I think the burning can happen during the Millennium.

[JustinSolo]

An event has to occur that points Israel's heart back to God and reestablishes their Old Testament Covenant, and that is exactly what is described in Ezekiel 38 & 39.

Does God have to reestablish an Old Testament Covenant?

From my reading of current events, it sounds more like Jews want the Temple and all that goes with it. They could build their temple today if allowed and would not be serving God. God is Jesus and if they refuse to acknowledge that, they are esentially committing idolatry. Their sacrifices will mean nothing if they deny the Son of God. God would rather they become Christians. I think the millennium will fulfill the promises God made to Israel because then they will be in right relationship to Christ.

The only thing I see that God needs to do before mid trib, is allow/cause events to shape that lets Israel build a temple and resume sacrifices.