The Battle of Gog and Magog

[Gideon300]

So since you agree, Gideon, that chapter 37 is a process that has started and will finally be complete in the MK, is it not also possible that there are elements of chapter 39 that will not be fully complete until the MK?

If you can show me where, in chapter 39, Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, then, I would agree with you on this, but it is not there.

[4EverHis]

JustinSolo-Yes I read the posts. But they don't answer my questions to my satisfaction.

Forgive me Brother, I sence your frustration. :hug


You can't say that it does answer the questions 100% conclusively or you would not even have this debate. Heavyweights like Chuck Missler and Hal Lindsey disagree on this topic. So I believe it is only fair to say their is still room for debate. Like others here, I have not completely made up my mind what I think. But I do think there is far too much conjecture being taken as fact.

Id rather refer to it as a "discussion" than a "debate" :) As for Hal Lindsey, I’m perfectly aware of his position, and believe he is in error. I love Hal Lindsey greatly :nod I owe him immensely, as he personally led me to Christ in a small gathering over 20 years ago. I also attended his church. Scripture is Scripture, the Word of God. Seek the Word of God, over anything else. Men can error :)


About conjecture...Everytime I ask a question, the answer never really answers the question...for example...
I say..."There is no verse that states that the Gog/Magog battle is the reason for the covenant."
4EverHis says..."As Gideon stated, it is Gods Word, not "conjecture"."
Now how does that prove my statement wrong? Yes God's word is true, but if there were a verse that stated this battle is the reason for the covenant, I would not be having this debate.The case would be closed. I am looking for reasons to believe your case. I am willing to believe whatever the truth is. Really!

Gideon had answered the question :)


Then your version of detailed and mine are radically different. There are 24 hours in a day.

Again, according to you, to this world, there are twenty four hours in a day, not to God there isnt. He is the Creator of the Universe, He does not where a watch. His definition of "time" is not the same as "our time".


It says nothing about how long he is at each location (mount of olives, bozrah, etc.) What does he say to wipe out the enemy? Does he say stuff to his church behind Him? What are we doing? Does he get off the White Horse? At which stops? When? See there are a ton of questions...and yes I realize that most of that is NOT IMPORTANT. I got it, trust me.

Forgive me, but do you Trust Him? Forgive me, but your finite questions suggest that perhaps you are worried? Why should we be concerned about what Words He says to destroy Gods enemies for example, or what He says to us? :scratch We will be in the presence of our Lord and Savior. The Son of Almighty God, who will be passing judgment and wrath upon evil. He can do and say what ever He wants, and humbly, by His Grace, we will be with Him on that day.


But all those small details determine how it all plays out in the end. But again, if it is as detailed as you claim, there would not be so much room for friendly debate and discussion. :hat

"All those small details" He will bring to pass, in His Time, and in His way. His Word does tells us "how it plays out". Again, I recommend that perhaps you read Revelation 19. Pray for discernment from the Holy Spirit. :hug

[bek1]

Well, let's look at Chapter 39:


This is speaking of a renewed relationship (Old Testament Covenant) with God. This does not state that they accept Jesus as their Messiah. It specifically outlines the fact that through this event Israel reestablishes their Old Testament Covenant. Israel will have a passion for God again (God will pour out his spirit), but let me reiterate, they will not accept Jesus as their Messiah just yet. The acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah is the reason for Daniel's 70th week. Revelation also speaks of the 144,000 Jewish preachers that accept Christ.

At the beginning of Chapter 38 we read that Israel is living in safely and securely in the land. As we know from the book of Judges when Israel lives in security, they forget God. God wakes them up, and completely renews Israel through Gog/Magog. Not since Moses leading the Israelites through the parted Red Sea has God provided such a rescue to Israel.


I'm concerned about this continual reference to a renewed OT Covenant. There is nothing to renew....what God covenanted to Abraham still stands, it just needs to be fulfilled, and this will not and cannot happen to Israel until she recognizes Jesus as Messiah. The OT practices they pick up during the tribulation are them thinking they are coming back to God, but they are doing nothing different than the leaders of Israel during the time Jesus was in their midst. They are remaining a people who are practicing their religion outside of the will of God. The ONLY thing that renews and restores Israel as a nation in proper relationship to God is when they look on Jesus and are saved. The fact that there is a group of Jews in Israel during this time, and that they are a nation is so prophecy can be fulfilled (ie: the 7 year contract that begins Daniels 70th week...this contract with Israel can only take place if there is a nation of Israel to have a contract with. A remnant of Israel is there for this purpose so that God can fulfill His dealings fortold that HAD to happen to bring Israel to a place of repentance....which will be completed by the end of the tribulation and realized when they set eyes upon Jesus....then and only then will the Covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be able to be fulfilled, and Israel will be the nation above all other nations and all other nations will be blessed thru her. Then all of what God promised thru their forefathers will be fulfilled. The condition of Israel today is far from the condition God has in store for them ....a condition that cannot take place outside of recognizing their Messiah. (I would encourage anyone interested in further study on this to look into Zechariah chapters 12-14 as this clearly shows that their restoration of their relationship with God comes only thru Jesus...this is the next thing that happens to Israel in order for anything to be fulfilled in God's covenant with them.) His eternal covenant.-meaning no renewing has to take place, only fulfillment. In order to bring Israel to the position of recognizing Jesus, the 7 year tribulation has to happen. The temple, sacrifices and jewish practices they start up again is an unfaithful Israel still ignoring the Messiah and relying on the law. But during the time of Daniels 70th week, God prepares their hearts to begin seeking HIm, so that when Jesus comes they believe. Again, I encourage a reading Zechariah all of chapters 12-14...which is just more details of how God brings about his plans and purposes for Israel.

And with regards to Revelation 19. It's an amazing revealing and opening up of more details regarding God's plans and purposes, but it isn't the complete picture. It may complete the picture (sum it up) but you shouldn't rely on it alone for complete understanding about the tribulation or the millenial reign, as it's just apart of the whole of all God has revealed in His Word. Revelation 10:7 "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." Please don't leave out what the God has revealed to us through the prophets. It provides to whole picture. (i will always maintain my position that the Living and Active Word of God is meant to be examined, studied and searched, and that the whole counsel of God is there...and revealed from beginning to end...)

[4EverHis]

Justin, let me expand on what 4EverHis stated here. Speaking of Russia invading using horseback is not out of the realm of possibility at all. There is an ethnic group of Russians known as the Cossacks who were highly loyal to Russian Czars. They were some of Russia's top warriors. They were also known as highly trained horse-back warriors. The Soviet Union suppressed them because they were viewed as a threat, but in 2005 Putin passed a bill reinstating the Cossacks as a valuable military force of Russia. What is interesting about this is that many scholars have suggested that Gog is a Russian Czar, meaning Russia's current form of government dissolves into an absolute dictator. This makes sense that Cossacks are brought back in to do the bidding of their Czar, and expand for a new Russian Empire.

Facinating, Gods Word is amazing. Yes, Gog is a title and not the name of a person, we do not know from these verses, the specific identity of Gog. Gog - a title like Czar, Pharaoh referring to a leader.
However, we can know that Gog will be "of the land of Magog" , and will be a future "prince of the lands of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal". The identification of Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal can be determined from the fact that these tribes of the ancient world once occupied the areas of modern day Russia.The title Czar (derived from Caesar) meant Emperor in the European medieval sense of the term, that is, a ruler who claims the same rank as a Roman emperor, with the approval of another emperor or a supreme ecclesiastical official (the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch).

As for the horses, this is interesting :nod


The United States, by far, reports the highest total number of horses with an approximate 9,500,000.
...
The figures for Europe show the Russian Federation as having the most horses, at 1,319,358, followed by Romania (834,000), then Ukraine (585,000), Germany (500,400), France (422,872). The United Kindom is estimated at 185,000.
...
Other than the Russian Federation, countries with horse population totals over one million included: China (7,402,450); Mexico (6,260,000); Brazil (5,787,249); Argentina (3,655,000); Columbia (2,533,621); Mongolia (2,029,100); Ethiopia (1,655,383); and Kazakhstan (1,163,500). Guam (20) and Grenada (30) had the lowest population totals. Two countries, Rwanda and Saint Helena, reported a zero horse population.
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/09/105.shtml

[4EverHis]

True, they are, but they are in the process of being fulfilled, are they not? In order for David (Jesus) to be their King, they have to first accept God back, don't they?
Ezekiel 36:8 - 11:
Has not most of this already happened? The desert was bare before 1878, after Jews started going home it is has now flourished.
Ezekiel 37 is speaking of a process of restoration for the nation of Israel, is it not? Read Ezekiel 37:1-11, and it speaks of a process, in steps of restoring the body of Israel. Gog/Magog is a step in this restoration, the step of reestablishing the Old Covenant.

Simply put, there is the restoration of the people and land (already happened and continuing), and there is a restoration of the His Spirit to the people, His Covenant. :) He had "hid His Face" for thousands of years, and then tells us He will "hide His Face no more". He is back with them.
Ezekiel 39:23
23.And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Ezekiel 39:29
29.Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

[JustinSolo]

I'm concerned about this continual reference to a renewed OT Covenant. There is nothing to renew....what God covenanted to Abraham still stands, it just needs to be fulfilled, and this will not and cannot happen to Israel until she recognizes Jesus as Messiah. The OT practices they pick up during the tribulation are them thinking they are coming back to God, but they are doing nothing different than the leaders of Israel during the time Jesus was in their midst. They are remaining a people who are practicing their religion outside of the will of God. The ONLY thing that renews and restores Israel as a nation in proper relationship to God is when they look on Jesus and are saved. The fact that there is a group of Jews in Israel during this time, and that they are a nation is so prophecy can be fulfilled (ie: the 7 year contract that begins Daniels 70th week...this contract with Israel can only take place if there is a nation of Israel to have a contract with. A remnant of Israel is there for this purpose so that God can fulfill His dealings fortold that HAD to happen to bring Israel to a place of repentance....which will be completed by the end of the tribulation and realized when they set eyes upon Jesus....then and only then will the Covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be able to be fulfilled, and Israel will be the nation above all other nations and all other nations will be blessed thru her. Then all of what God promised thru their forefathers will be fulfilled. The condition of Israel today is far from the condition God has in store for them ....a condition that cannot take place outside of recognizing their Messiah. (I would encourage anyone interested in further study on this to look into Zechariah chapters 12-14 as this clearly shows that their restoration of their relationship with God comes only thru Jesus...this is the next thing that happens to Israel in order for anything to be fulfilled in God's covenant with them.) His eternal covenant.-meaning no renewing has to take place, only fulfillment. In order to bring Israel to the position of recognizing Jesus, the 7 year tribulation has to happen. The temple, sacrifices and jewish practices they start up again is an unfaithful Israel still ignoring the Messiah and relying on the law. But during the time of Daniels 70th week, God prepares their hearts to begin seeking HIm, so that when Jesus comes they believe. Again, I encourage a reading Zechariah all of chapters 12-14...which is just more details of how God brings about his plans and purposes for Israel.

Thank you for that post. That is exactly what I wanted to say regarding this OT covenant being mentioned. Exactly. I am not always good at expressing myself in written form.

So to Gideon and his question... where is Jesus being accepted?
I would say the last verse of chapter 39 shows it. "And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD." I realize how you are viewing it, but I am viewing it from the perspective that bek1 explained(Zechariah 12-14).


With all due respect, you seem to have formed certain opinions and are merely trying to use scripture to validate them.

I came to have these views simply through my own readings and study in the recent months. I am questioning the pre-trib Gog/Magog view (probably a majority view on this board) because of what I am reading in the text.

[Gideon300]

I'm concerned about this continual reference to a renewed OT Covenant. There is nothing to renew....what God covenanted to Abraham still stands, it just needs to be fulfilled, and this will not and cannot happen to Israel until she recognizes Jesus as Messiah. The OT practices they pick up during the tribulation are them thinking they are coming back to God, but they are doing nothing different than the leaders of Israel during the time Jesus was in their midst. They are remaining a people who are practicing their religion outside of the will of God. The ONLY thing that renews and restores Israel as a nation in proper relationship to God is when they look on Jesus and are saved. The fact that there is a group of Jews in Israel during this time, and that they are a nation is so prophecy can be fulfilled (ie: the 7 year contract that begins Daniels 70th week...this contract with Israel can only take place if there is a nation of Israel to have a contract with. A remnant of Israel is there for this purpose so that God can fulfill His dealings fortold that HAD to happen to bring Israel to a place of repentance....which will be completed by the end of the tribulation and realized when they set eyes upon Jesus....then and only then will the Covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be able to be fulfilled, and Israel will be the nation above all other nations and all other nations will be blessed thru her. Then all of what God promised thru their forefathers will be fulfilled. The condition of Israel today is far from the condition God has in store for them ....a condition that cannot take place outside of recognizing their Messiah. (I would encourage anyone interested in further study on this to look into Zechariah chapters 12-14 as this clearly shows that their restoration of their relationship with God comes only thru Jesus...this is the next thing that happens to Israel in order for anything to be fulfilled in God's covenant with them.) His eternal covenant.-meaning no renewing has to take place, only fulfillment. In order to bring Israel to the position of recognizing Jesus, the 7 year tribulation has to happen. The temple, sacrifices and jewish practices they start up again is an unfaithful Israel still ignoring the Messiah. But during the time of Daniels 70th week, God prepares their hearts to begin seeking HIm, so that when Jesus comes they believe. Again, I encourage a reading Zechariah all of chapters 12-14...which is just more details of how God brings about his plans and purposes for Israel.

Let's look at Chapter 39 again:


22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God.

If Israel looks at God as their God from this day forward, then, isn't it safe to say the nation didn't look at him as their LORD before this day? If you answered yes, then, Israel would not be following Old Testament Law.


23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

God hid his face from them, wouldn't this tell you that the Covenant was not established?

Hosea 3: 4-5 can help us here:


4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Israel will seek God first (reestablish Old Testament Covenant, then seek David (Jesus). Notice how it speaks of the Old Testament Covenant not happening for many days, then, Israel returns, and seeks God. When Israel is right with God they follow the Old Testament laws including making sacrifices. This means they need to build a third temple to make this happen.

Ezekiel 39:25-29

25 "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity [f] and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

God will not hide his face from Israel anymore following Gog/Magog.

[Gideon300]

Thank you for that post. That is exactly what I wanted to say regarding this OT covenant being mentioned. Exactly. I am not always good at expressing myself in written form.

So to Gideon and his question... where is Jesus being accepted?
I would say the last verse of chapter 39 shows it. "And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD." I realize how you are viewing it, but I am viewing it from the perspective that bek1 explained(Zechariah 12-14).



I came to have these views simply through my own readings and study in the recent months. I am questioning the pre-trib Gog/Magog view (probably a majority view on this board) because of what I am reading in the text.

Zechariah 12-14 is Jesus' return. These two events are not the same. Again, show me in the Ezekiel 38-39 where Israel accepts the Messiah. It isn't there.

You haven't answered how Israel can be living safely and securely in the land in the Tribulation when the AC has seized Jerusalem. Also, you run into another problem, Ezekiel 39:26:


26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.

This verse is making reference to Ezekiel 38:8 where it states they live in safety. 39:26 clearly states that they were unfaithful towards God, but we know that during the Tribulation, in the first half, Israel is making sacrifices and following the Old Testament Covenant, in the second half, Israel is preached to about Jesus by 144,000 Jewish preachers that have accepted Christ, and much of the nation comes to Jesus, so how could these two events possibly happen around the same time?

We are going in circles, so please answer these questions.

[JustinSolo]

Israel will seek God first (reestablish Old Testament Covenant, then seek David (Jesus). Notice how it speaks of the Old Testament Covenant not happening for many days, then, Israel returns, and seeks God.

How do you seek God and not Jesus? If you are seeking God you find Jesus. Who did Moses speak to on Mount Sinai? Jesus. Who did Joshua see at Jericho? Jesus. Who did Abraham chat with about Sodom? Jesus. All throughout the OT these prophets, these Jews, were serving Jesus. He is God. He was with God in the beginning. The problem started when he came down as a lowly servant. Then they chose to forsake Him and serve a God of their own imagination. One who does not have a son that died for their sins. Seek God all you want, but if it doesn't lead to Jesus, you have the wrong God.

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Zechariah 13:2 2 “It shall be in that day,” says the LORD of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land.

Ezekiel 39:7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”

I see correlations between these texts.

[Gideon300]

How do you seek God and not Jesus? If you are seeking God you find Jesus. Who did Moses speak to on Mount Sinai? Jesus. Who did Joshua see at Jericho? Jesus. Who did Abraham chat with about Sodom? Jesus. All throughout the OT these prophets, these Jews, were serving Jesus. He is God. He was with God in the beginning. The problem started when he came down as a lowly servant. Then they chose to forsake Him and serve a God of their own imagination. One who does not have a son that died for their sins. Seek God all you want, but if it doesn't lead to Jesus, you have the wrong God.

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Zechariah 13:2 2 “It shall be in that day,” says the LORD of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land.

Ezekiel 39:7 So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”

I see correlations between these texts.

Is Jesus not spoken of as the Messiah? Does Israel, today, believe in God, but denies Jesus? You and I understand that Jesus is God, but does Israel today?

Again, Zechariah & Ezekiel are speaking of two different events. Show where Jesus, David their King, or the messiah is accepted in Ezekiel 38-39.