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Gideon300
November 19th, 2010, 03:41 PM
Is Joel Richardson "very bad news" because he's post trib, or because of all the other things in addition to that? Sorry, but that can be taken as an inference that anyone who adheres to post trib is bad news because of that particular view. They may not be allowed to promote their ideas here, but that certainly doesn't make them bad news. In His Love. :hat :hat

Actually it does.. When you promote ideas that aren't supported by scripture, what good is a teacher like that? The post-trib stance fails the test of scripture, period.

He used to promote books on his site (when it was open to comments) on the "delusion" of the pre-trib rapture. His entire theological theory unravels by pulling on just a couple strings...

metroames
November 19th, 2010, 03:48 PM
His theory is that Mystery Babylon is Saudi Arabia.

First of all Mystery Babylon is clearly a "harlot religion". Second, any time Babylon the city is said to be represented by anything other than the ancient region of Babylon, you have a form of "replacement theology". A hundred years ago and longer, people couldn't fathom Israel becoming a nation again, so they "replaced" Israel with the Church in Scripture. The Bible was clearly speaking of a literal Israel in their ancient land. The same will be with Babylon in Revelation.

More support for Babylon being a literal place in it original land is found in Zech 5. The land of Shinar is another name for Babylon:

Vision of the Woman in a Basket

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, “Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.” 6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket that is going forth.” He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. 10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they carrying the basket?” 11 And he said to me, “To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.”

pinezoo
November 19th, 2010, 04:14 PM
Remember what Paul said in 1 Cor. 13, speaking on prophecy, words, and knowledge. 1Cor. 13:9-13. It was this same Paul who admonished us in Rom.2:1. There are "strings" to be pulled on all sides, that's why they're theories, and they change and grow. Only God has the truth and understands the end of all things, we on the other hand are biased by our outside influences. It's great to share and debate these things, But I try to refrain from making judgements on a person based on their view of the prophetic word. I'll stick to what is clearly outlined in scripture, like the virgin birth, deity of Jesus, salvation by grace, etc. etc. If their teachings on these things are heretical your allowed to say they are dangerous, God does and we're commanded to as well. Basicly what Jesus tells us is that if we go around "pulling strings", we'll get ours pulled as well, only it'll be by Him. LORD bless you!!

Gideon300
November 19th, 2010, 04:21 PM
Remember what Paul said in 1 Cor. 13, speaking on prophecy, words, and knowledge. 1Cor. 13:9-13. It was this same Paul who admonished us in Rom.2:1. There are "strings" to be pulled on all sides, that's why they're theories, and they change and grow. Only God has the truth and understands the end of all things, we on the other hand are biased by our outside influences. It's great to share and debate these things, But I try to refrain from making judgements on a person based on their view of the prophetic word. I'll stick to what is clearly outlined in scripture, like the virgin birth, deity of Jesus, salvation by grace, etc. etc. If their teachings on these things are heretical your allowed to say they are dangerous, God does and we're commanded to as well. Basicly what Jesus tells us is that if we go around "pulling strings", we'll get ours pulled as well, only it'll be by Him. LORD bless you!!

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Sorry, no, that does not work in this case. His theories don't stand up when looking at scripture. You can't possibly tell me that Rome doesn't exist on the statue in Daniel. You can't tell people that Nebuchadnezzar ruling over the world as stated in Daniel is just hyperbole...saying this is the same as calling God an exaggerator. Post-trib theory doesn't stand up to scripture. In order for post-trib theory to work you have to throw out numerous scriptures. Sorry, we aren't going to play "we can all be right" when speaking of scripture.

pinezoo
November 19th, 2010, 04:40 PM
First of all Mystery Babylon is clearly a "harlot religion". Second, any time Babylon the city is said to be represented by anything other than the ancient region of Babylon, you have a form of "replacement theology". A hundred years ago and longer, people couldn't fathom Israel becoming a nation again, so they "replaced" Israel with the Church in Scripture. The Bible was clearly speaking of a literal Israel in their ancient land. The same will be with Babylon in Revelation.

More support for Babylon being a literal place in it original land is found in Zech 5. The land of Shinar is another name for Babylon:

Vision of the Woman in a Basket

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, “Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.” 6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket that is going forth.” He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. 10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they carrying the basket?” 11 And he said to me, “To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.” I agree with that, However the fact that it is a literal city doesn't restrict it from being an idealogical system as well. Scripture supports this. In Gen. 4:17 the name of the city is Enoch, that means "initiator", and a "city" (look in your strongs con.) is anything from a tent with 2 people in it, to a city as we understand it today. The idea is that there's agreement and propigation of those agreed upon ideas between everybody in the "city". There was an initial split in the beginning that resulted in two cities. One for God and another against God. BTW, both lines ended with Lamech, the difference is that one was totally destroyed while the other passed over to start a brand new thing. God told Isaiah that he would tell us the end "from" the beginning. Isa. 46:10 This is EXACTLY the pattern that we find throughout the rest of scripture. God bless you!!

pinezoo
November 19th, 2010, 04:55 PM
kingdom
Sorry, no, that does not work in this case. His theories don't stand up when looking at scripture. You can't possibly tell me that Rome doesn't exist on the statue in Daniel. You can't tell people that Nebuchadnezzar ruling over the world as stated in Daniel is just hyperbole...saying this is the same as calling God an exaggerator. Post-trib theory doesn't stand up to scripture. In order for post-trib theory to work you have to throw out numerous scriptures. Sorry, we aren't going to play "we can all be right" when speaking of scripture. The focus of my post was on the "post trib" viewpoint. You seemed to broadbrush all post tribbers into your judgement of this so called teacher-preacher. That was my point, however, I'll leave you with this. In the case of Rome not being the final kingdom, there's quite a number of "good" scholars that adhere to this, but even if there wasn't I would hesitate basing my judgement of validity on these things alone. You do whatever you feel is right, who am I to judge another's servant. If you need correction God is more than able to administer it, and in the proper portion. The same goes for me, If I'm wrong I stand or fall to God, Therefore, If I err, I want it to be on the side of grace. I pray You'll join me there. God bless!!

pokeygucci
November 19th, 2010, 06:32 PM
Why then is the woman called Mystery Babylon if Babylon is always referring to the geographic spot called Babylon. If that is the case there is no "mystery". S.A. is spawning a false religion so I would think in that respect it could fulfill that aspect. Somehow, even if Joel is wrong I think Islam is going to play a big part in end-times. Just the sheer terror they cause all over the world kind of fulfills the prediction of just as it was in the days of Noah so it will be (the earth was filled with violence in Noah's day). I hadn't heard about Joel's other positions so thanks for the info.

metroames
November 19th, 2010, 06:57 PM
Somehow, even if Joel is wrong I think Islam is going to play a big part in end-times.

With regards to Islam being judged in the Psalm 83/Isiah 17 War being followed shortly by the Ezekiel 38 War I believe you are correct. Islam must decrease for the revived ancient "Mystery Babylon" religion from the time of Babel to increase.

Rapture
Psalm 83/Isaiah 17 War
Confirming of covenant
Ezekiel 38 War
Islam/aithism judged - Mystery Babylon religion takes over and rules until the midpoint of the Tribulation when the beast throws the woman off and destroy her (Rev 17)
Antichrist claims himself to be God and rules for 3 1/2 years
Christ comes back to reclaim the rule of Earth

Chris
November 19th, 2010, 07:05 PM
Have any of you read or seen anything by Joel Richardson. His theory is that Mystery Babylon is Saudi Arabia. In Rev.17 John is carried into the desert where he sees the woman riding the beast. S.A. is in the desert. Thu out the Bible Babylon stands for idolatry. S.A. exports Wahabi Islam to the far reaches of the earth. Everyday billions of people bow to Mecca and worship a false god. The woman is dressed in luxury and precious stones. S.A. ruling family is drowning in luxury as a result of petro dollars. One prince who owns many luxury cars has one mercedes benz encrusted totally with diamonds. It speaks of the kings of the earth fornicating with her. S.A. buys influence and silence from leaders all over the world. They have bankrolled several of our presidents. They donate large sums of money to our colleges and then establish Islamic studies programs. Where it says the merchants of the earth mourn and weep over her demise when she is destroyed in an hour Joel notes that S.A. imports everything. The only thing they export is oil and terror. Since they support radical medrassas and the end result is terror and persecution of Christians and Jews it could be said as in verse 6 that she is drunk with the blood of the saints. As for the beast she is riding that turns on her it is well known that many of S.A. princes live debauched lives in the West and the Wahabi clerics that they support would like to overthrow them. Anyway, it is food for thought. Any comments?

Joel Richardson has some strange theology. He is also not pre-trib. For this reason, we don't allow his teachings on the board.

iSong6:3
November 19th, 2010, 08:14 PM
Some interesting reading:

on of Joel Richardson's books - a critique of his arguments by David Reagan (scroll about halfway down): http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_islam4.php

and here, where Richardson is mentioned as Ron Rhodes joins in about the AC possibly being Muslim:
http://www.lamblion.us/2010/08/quick-q-will-antichrist-come-from.html