Emergent Rob Bell *Merged*

[grape on the vine]

OK, found it in post 51. As I read it it is basically a stand alone question, unless I'm missing where you want to go with it.

The theme of the Bible and all it says, the point from cover to cover (minus the Book of Concordance of course), is God's plan for the eternal redemption of fallen mankind, that redemption being only through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, and the eternal consequences for those who reject that redemption.

That would be it in a nutshell. If I were to make it shorter, I would say that it's all about Jesus. But then one would have to explain who He is and why he had to do what He did.

Did I pass?
Well... Yeah, kinda. The whole point of the Bible, the whole intent of it's authors (and ultimately, it's Author) is not whether or not the Earth was created in six literal days, or whether or not Joseph was literally the father of Jesus, or whether or not the story of Job actually took place. The point is, whether all the facts can be verified or not, what does It say about God? Even the Law was written this way.
Now, can we and should we ask questions about whether the Earth was created in six literal days, etc.? Yes, definitely. Why not? However, if we don't have complete answers nailed down, and others offer different answers that could very well be, we must not get into a semantics battle, because again, that's not the point. We can test answers, but my friend, there are so many questions about the Bible that we just can't answer and really don't need to. Sometimes it's okay to simply say, "I don't know." That phrase has freed me and helped me realize how much bigger God is than me.
Just a thought. Let's not get caught up semantics. I understand wanting to have a pure Gospel presented, and I have no problem with that. Just sayin'... Thoughts?

[Lexie]

From the sex god book

The author of Genesis makes it clear that there is something different about humans... something of God has been placed in them. We reflect what God is like and who God is. A divine spark resides in every single human being. Everybody, everywhere. Bearers of the divine image" (pg 19).

But maybe it’s already a marriage in God’s eyes, and maybe their having sex has already joined them as a man and a wife from God’s perspective. (p. 137)

"As human beings, we take part through our actions in the ongoing creation of the world. The question is: What kind of world are we going to make" (pg. 63).

"How you treat the creation reflects how you feel about the creator. When a human being is mistreated, objectified, or neglected, when they are treated as less than human, these actions are actions against God. Because how you treat the creation reflects how you feel about the creator" (pg 28).

"As human beings, we take part through our actions in the ongoing creation of the world. The question is: What kind of world are we going to make" (pg. 63).


Barbara Marx Hubbard on the New Path of the Co-creator in These Uncertain Times

http://www.shiftinaction.com/discover/audios/barbara_marx_hubbard/new_path_of_the_co-creator

The Gnostics held that the material, empirical, human being is essentially an illusion that envelops, indeed imprisons, the inner, true self. It is only by acquiring knowledge or "memory" (in the Platonic sense of anamnesis) of this inner self that the Gnostic devotee can free himself from this hostile world and achieve ultimate spiritual fulfillment. While the Kabbalists held a similar view regarding the "sparks," their Jewish commitment to the world's essential goofness led them to transform the sparks doctrine into a vehicle for world-redemption.

http://www.newkabbalah.com/gnos.html

No fad has swept through Catholic seminaries and retreat centers in recent years with as much fervor as has the Enneagram.* Teaching the Enneagram, variously billed as “the mirror of the soul” and “a map to the psyche,” has become the new profession of former priests, who offer it as a spiritual guide and an aid to pastoral practice. Welcomed in some dioceses, reviled in others, the Enneagram is a growing source of controversy among Catholic professionals in the fields of education, counseling, and priestly formation.

Shrouded in an ancient, semimysterious past, the Enneagram Theory of Personality is often compared to the better-known Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory. What most Catholics do not know is that the Enneagram has its origins in the occult, specifically in alchemy, Sufi mysticism, whirling dervishes, astrology, Hindu mantras, and the occult Kabbala. Catholic defenders of the Enneagram, anxious to shed any relationship with the occult, point to similar teachings in early Greek geometry, Pythagorean seals, the Desert Fathers, Christian Mystics, and Scripture. As one trainer explained, "What is good we may appropriate for Christianity, just as we did with the thought of Aristotle."

The enormous appeal of this typology is the belief that one gains a guilt-free blueprint to the soul: "What's wrong with me? Why do I always do this?" In response, the Enneagram comforts its believers with the teaching that we are not responsible for our behavior patterns. Having arrived in this plaoe &127;hole-before the world inflicted its trauma upon us-we became determined at our respective points along the circle, perhaps as three- or four-year-olds. Trapped in this type, the personality has an excuse for everything, "Well, what did you expect-after all, I am a 3."

The Rohr Connection Popular retreat master Fr. Richard Rohr penned Discovering the Enneagram: Ancient Tool for a New Spiritual Journey. Rohr's particular twist attaches a "root sin" to each fixation, and uses religious language for many of his explanations. Our root sin, in his scheme, is the obsession that defines all our choices, the friends we make, the jobs we take. This root sin is the source of our energy-the backside of our virtue. Rohr is founder and director of the Albuquerque Center for Contemplation and Action, a gathering place for heterodox, dissident teachers. Visitors to Rohr's center include: Matthew Fox, Rosemary Radford Reuther, Joan Chittister, Daniel Berrigan, Edwina Gately, and Bishop Raymond Luker. Rohr retreated for a month of contemplation to the cottage of his late mentor, Thomas Merton, before withdrawing from New Jerusalem, a lay community he founded,

http://www.lhla.org/globalwatch/gwenneagram.htm


The ENNEAGRAM and KABBALAH
Reading Your Soul *


Patterns in our lives may escape us; reasons for our behavior often confuse us. To help us better understand the interplay of these dynamics, Rabbi Howard Addison combines—for the first time—two of the most powerful maps of consciousness known to humanity: the Tree of Life (the Sefirot) from the Jewish mystical tradition of Kabbalah, and the nine-pointed Enneagram that was developed over several generations by mystics of several spiritual traditions. Individually, each offers guidance and wisdom; together, they show the forces that propel us and shape our personalities and behavior. Most important, the two suggest how we can live more harmoniously with ourselves and with others, minimize friction and tension, and discover our own spiritual gateway to God.

According to some scientific theories, our personalities are a result of our upbringing and genetic code. But, even if scientists and psychologists can explain the physical and emotional aspects of how we respond to stress, anxiety, anger and love, how do we explain the spiritual drive behind our emotions and personalities?

The Kabbalah claims that each person’s soul is rooted in a different aspect of God’s personality, in one of the Sefirot that constitute the Etz Chayim,*the Tree of Life. By looking through the lens of Kabbalah at the nine personalities of the Enneagram, Rabbi Howard Addison reveals the extraordinary correspondence between the two systems. He adapts classical kabbalistic spiritual practices to the Enneagram’s nine personality types, creating a powerful combined tool to enhance your personal spiritual self-discovery.
This pioneering book shows that when brought together the Enneagram and Kabbalah may help you understand your own deepest motivations and the motivations of those around you, thus opening wider the gate to personal growth.

[Betty]

The point of the Bible is that it is God's love story to man kind. All through the Bible we see, that no matter how vile mankind, God forgive us and gives so many chances to repent and have a relationship with Him. Although if your read Rob Bell's book on page 43, he questions that we can even have a relationship with God. I disagree. God has always wanted to have a relationship with mankind. In the begining God would walk with Adam and Eve in the garden. I can just imagine how it broke God's heart when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and hid themselves from God. God did not turn His back on mankind. He sent His Son to die for mankind, but through the years, He still had a relationship with man, even long before Jesus came and died.
From Genesis to The Book of Revelations, God is reaching out to mankind to have a realationship with us.
On page 42 Bell says: "sometimes when I hear people quote the Bible, I just want to throw up."
While it is true when you hear raciest quote the Bible it breaks your heart that they use the Bible to spread hate, I never want to throw up when I hear God's Word to us.

Of course some people like Rob Bell's sort of writing, but to me there are still a few people who preach the truth of the Gospel and I prefer to stick to them.
If you find comfort from Bell's style of writing, then enjoy it. But he is not for me.
betty

[FunMudder]

Well... Yeah, kinda. The whole point of the Bible, the whole intent of it's authors (and ultimately, it's Author) is not whether or not the Earth was created in six literal days, or whether or not Joseph was literally the father of Jesus, or whether or not the story of Job actually took place. The point is, whether all the facts can be verified or not, what does It say about God? Even the Law was written this way.
Now, can we and should we ask questions about whether the Earth was created in six literal days, etc.? Yes, definitely. Why not? However, if we don't have complete answers nailed down, and others offer different answers that could very well be, we must not get into a semantics battle, because again, that's not the point. We can test answers, but my friend, there are so many questions about the Bible that we just can't answer and really don't need to. Sometimes it's okay to simply say, "I don't know." That phrase has freed me and helped me realize how much bigger God is than me.
Just a thought. Let's not get caught up semantics. I understand wanting to have a pure Gospel presented, and I have no problem with that. Just sayin'... Thoughts?


So when God says He did it in 6 days, thats not verifiable? Can you please show me another text where God gives specifics that He didn't really mean literally? Can you tell me why He would tell us something that was not true?

The whole point of the Bible IS that it is 100% accurate, even in the poetic books. It shows Gods infalliability, mankinds complete ineptness at ever being good enough, and how God loves us so much He gave His only son to save our sorry selves. He detailed how His son was coming, how He was going to die, ALL of it, and yet those that were educated in the details, still missed it. To think we have any right to 'reinterpret' so much as a jot or tittle in that book of books, only shows that our egocentric nature hasn't changed one bit.

If ANY one of the facts God gave us is proven wrong, then the Bible as a whole loses it's authority. If it's wrong on who is someones daddy, or who was someones cousin, then it can be wrong about anything and we have nothing to base our faith on.

THIS is where this "new Christianity" shows it's real nature. That it doesn't really matter if something turns out to be wrong, cause "faith can take us over the mistake". That is the mantra of cults, not Christ.

[Betty]

On page 41 and 42 Rob questions whether God really told Joshua to kill women and children. "We all understand that ethnic cleansing is evil” This is not true from God's prospective. I heard a preacher talking about how when Israel took the Promised Land, God had told them to kill every body and one man's family decided to make them slaves instead. He said that Israel suffered at the hands of that group of people through out time, because they disobeyed God. Rob Bell questions why God told them to kill women and children. Children grow up hating the people that conquer the land and then become an enemy to Israel.
To me Rob, has alot of nerve questioning God.


Questions Paul's writings on page 42 He wonders is this Paul talking or God.
Yes Paul did say in 1 Cor to the rest I say this (I not the Lord), but if we believe that God inspired the Bible, we must believe that God had wanted what Paul said from his heart in the Bible.
I believe it is very dangerous to start editing the Bible and leaving out what we don't want. This is what liberal Churches are doing. They decide that God did not mean abortion as murder and God was wrong about homosexuals being sin.
Rob is on very dangerous ground and I would not recommend anyone to read his books.

[corby]

Well... Yeah, kinda. The whole point of the Bible, the whole intent of it's authors (and ultimately, it's Author) is not whether or not the Earth was created in six literal days, or whether or not Joseph was literally the father of Jesus, or whether or not the story of Job actually took place. The point is, whether all the facts can be verified or not, what does It say about God? Even the Law was written this way.
I don't think I could disagree more. Reread my summary above. The Law does not simply say stuff about God. The Law (as Paul discusses in the various epistles, especially Romans and Galatians) show us man is fallen, can't meet God's standard, but that God will provide what is necessary in order to meet his requirements. Your response is confusing because what you say the point isn't has nothing to do with what the point is. The discussion of the literalness and provability of the text isn't directly conntected to the point of the text (it is indirectly).

"The point is, whether all the facts can be verified or not, what does It say about God? " So if a statement of fact fromthe Bible is disproven, we can just ignore that and stick to what it says about God because that's all that matters? This just floors me. I am without speech.


Now, can we and should we ask questions about whether the Earth was created in six literal days, etc.? Yes, definitely. Why not? However, if we don't have complete answers nailed down, and others offer different answers that could very well be, we must not get into a semantics battle, because again, that's not the point. We can test answers, but my friend, there are so many questions about the Bible that we just can't answer and really don't need to. Sometimes it's okay to simply say, "I don't know." That phrase has freed me and helped me realize how much bigger God is than me.
Just a thought. Let's not get caught up semantics. I understand wanting to have a pure Gospel presented, and I have no problem with that. Just sayin'... Thoughts?

I have no problem with saying "I don't know." I say it all the time concerning certain aspects of the Bible. Does that mean we can just leave it at that when God gave us brains to use to try and find the answers? This notion that has surfaced among the EC movement that there is comfort in the unknown, that uncertainty is a good thing, that the discussion or the "conversation" or the "journey" is more important than the answers and destination, it's contrary to the whole purpose of God's word. We have God's word so that we have answers. We have God's word so that we have certainty. We have God's so that we know where we are going.

Where we have answers we need to stand on them. We know that the intent of Genesis is a literal understanding and that God wants us to understand that is was 6 days. There shouldn't even be any debate about it, especially amongst Christians.

One of my favorite things is doing Q&A with other believers. I love to ask and I love to answer. Why? Because it's about the answers, not some psuedo-intellectual buzz we get from asking the heavy questions and not coming up with anything. I think that's the attraction. "We are asking the heavy questions. We are seeking the deeper things. What is the sound of one hand clapping?" It's just the opposite of everything the Word stands for. Take Proverbs for example? Wisdom calls to us to come and get more wisdom. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge, not questions for the sake of questions.

Honestly (and not in a mean way), this line of thinking sickens and saddens me. It makes me physically nauseous when I hear people, especially pastors (whether you are one or not, Grape), talk about this or that not mattering about God's word, talk about how as long as we get the lesson out of it, that's all that matters. I get sad knowing that people are being misled and unintentionally deceived by this low and soft view of God's holy word, especially considering the thousands of people who were tortured and martyred over it.

I don't know how much more I can say about this. I've even forgotten which thread I'm in. Doesn't matter becuase they are intertwined (the sola scripture and the Robb Bell threads) because it seem very obvious that Robb Bell is not sola scriptura.

[corby]

On page 41 and 42 Rob questions whether God really told Joshua to kill women and children. "We all understand that ethnic cleansing is evil” This is not true from God's prospective. I heard a preacher talking about how when Israel took the Promised Land, God had told them to kill every body and one man's family decided to make them slaves instead. He said that Israel suffered at the hands of that group of people through out time, because they disobeyed God. Rob Bell questions why God told them to kill women and children. Children grow up hating the people that conquer the land and then become an enemy to Israel.
To me Rob, has alot of nerve questioning God.

Betty, excellent stuff. Of course God told Joshua to do that. If He really didn't then God's word just lied to us. If that's the case then it isn't God's word and we should just ditch the whole thing. And the bit about ethnic clensing is another demonstartion of how Bell apparently doesn't know how to read or interpret the scriptures. What God commanded Israel to do had nothing to do with ethnicity. It had everything to do with culture. It was cultural cleansing. Several times God states int he Law that the purpose of the law was to separate the Israelites from the nations around them culturally. They were supposed to go in to the promised land and wipe everyone out because they had earned His wrath with their ways (child sacrifice, homosexuality, worhipping false gods, etc). God didn't want any of that in His camp. So the "ethnic cleansing" had more to do with their culture and less to do with their ethnicity. Yes it's true that culture exists within the bounds of ethnicity, but is it never about race.

[Harley]

What gets to me is this quote:

"One of the lies is that truth only resides in this particular community or that particular thought system," Bell says. "I affirm the truth anywhere in any religious system, in any worldview."

I went to the BeliefNet article and read the rest of the quote, and the next thing he said was something like "if it's true, then it's from God". The name "God" is used by a lot of different religions to identify their "supreme being", and they are not all referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That, for me anyway, is not knit-picking.

Since Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by Him, and Paul said there is no other name by which we can be saved, then that statement by Rob Bell is enough to keep me away.

OK - although there is no context I'll still respond.

Bell has said two things:
Ultimate reality is found in Jesus Christ - VE
One of the lies is that truth only resides in this particular community or that particular thought system...I affirm the truth anywhere in any religious system, in any worldview...if it's true, then it's from God. - undocumented

Everyone is so quick to assume the second negates the first - or they just ignore the first because picking on him is more fun... but I digress...

If a Jew says God is one - is that not truth?
If a Buddhist says abortion is murder - is that not truth?
If a Muslim says stealing is sin - is that not truth?
If a secular humanists says 1+1=2 - is that not truth?

Therefore I agree - ultimate and final truth is found in Jesus Christ... but since all truth is God's truth, no matter where it is found it is of God.

Again, NBD.

[Harley]

...anything we choose can be posted and we'll be told how we're misinterpreting it, or how we're misrepresenting him, and so on and so forth.

...if the shoe fits. But seriously, all misrepresentations I have referred to are evident when looking at the context from which the quotes were lifted.

Your "There's gotta be something wrong since so many oppose him..." is a great catch-22... Some would say since he's so popular he must be catering to human desire... you say...

Well anyway - just because most here like LeHaye doesn't make Left Behind a good book either.
Or as Steve Taylor said "They like Jerry Lewis in France, Does that make him funny?"

[Betty]

so you have a problem with the Left Behind books. That figures!:gaah
There is so many preachers who preach the truth of the Gospel. Why spend so much time defending Rob Bell?
betty