Pope says we need to listen to the voice of the earth

[Tominator]

jba4241


It's really pretty suspicious when everytime this guy says something there's people explaining 'what he really meant to say'.

It sure seems that when people who agree with him back him up it's the 'infallibility' of the Pope thing, when he says something flaky, it's 'colloquialism.'


well said Daniel1210...

jba4241, what would the pope have to do or say that you would not defend?

...kiss the Koran?
......state that Allah and God Almighty are the same?
.........run to Fatima to bow before Mary?
............cast aside all non-Catholic Christians as not Christians in an unsaved state: yet, say that a Muslim has a path to salvation?


Oh yeah...the last two popemiesters have already done all this and more.:doh

And don't give me the "you just don't understand" thing...I too used to be lost in the dark pit of catholic heresy.:ohno

[jba4241]

well said Daniel1210...

jba4241, what would the pope have to do or say that you would not defend?

...kiss the Koran?
......state that Allah and God Almighty are the same?

............cast aside all non-Catholic Christians as not Christians in an unsaved state: yet, say that a Muslim has a path to salvation?


Oh yeah...the last two popemiesters have already done all this and more.:doh

And don't give me the "you just don't understand" thing...I too used to be lost in the dark pit of catholic heresy.:ohnoFunny, what you call a dark pit is the pure light of truth from God for me. Isn't it strange how that works!

.....kiss the Koran? Sure wish he wouldn't have done that. The pope was probably wrong, but he was showing respect to that group apparently. He's simply a man. He made a human error. But Pope John Paul II loved everyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, whatever. So, yeah, error in judgement in kissing that thing. But funny, I do quite recall we are to love our enemies. And in his poor human attempt, he was doing that by respecting what they respect. Still, wish he wouldn't have. Doesn't make me doubt an article of doctrine, though. I'm not going to run out and leave the Catholic Church or give up my belief that Jesus is God because he kissed the Koran. How ridiculous would that be.

......state that Allah and God Almighty are the same? I need to do more study on that one. Plus, where did a pope ever say Allah and God are the same? Are you referring to the Catechism where it states that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God? I do believe all three are monotheistic, and I'm just not sure if it's the same God or not. As I said, I need to do more study. Again, that doesn't change my belief in the doctrines of the Catholic Faith, i.e., the belief that Jesus is God, was born of a Virgin, my belief in the Real Presence, etc.

.........run to Fatima to bow before Mary? Personally, I have zero problem with devotion to Mary. Heck, it was through reading a book on Fatima when I was 12 years old that put a major fire in my heart for faith in Christ!! But I'm not about to get into statues and honoring saints or Mary in this thread. Way too much for this lone thread.

............cast aside all non-Catholic Christians as not Christians in an unsaved state: yet, say that a Muslim has a path to salvation? Oh, man. Amazing how these lies are perpetuated soooooooo much. You go do some further research on that. I suggest the Catholic Catechism. You find me one quote from the Catechism that says all non-Catholic Christians are in an unsaved state. You're not getting that from the pope's document last week about the word "Church" in the proper sense, are you? Because if you are, I suggest you do more research. That whole document is being blown out of proportion. But anyway, you tell me specifically where the Catholic Faith teaches all non-Catholic Christians are unsaved. That's my laugh for the day. Thanks!

Joe

[pegmo]

Tominator wrote - And don't give me the "you just don't understand" thing...I too used to be lost in the dark pit of catholic heresy.


It continues to amaze me how many souls Jesus has led out of the Catholic church to His Word and Truth. Praise Him!! I felt fairly alone in that journey when I met Him 3 years ago....but very encouraged by the number that have "come out of her" as He commanded - and on this board alone!! Praise Him again!!

Sorry for the distraction...just felt the need to write this....continue discussing now!

Pegmo

[pegmo]

jba4241 wrote - cast aside all non-Catholic Christians as not Christians in an unsaved state: yet, say that a Muslim has a path to salvation? Oh, man. Amazing how these lies are perpetuated soooooooo much. You go do some further research on that. I suggest the Catholic Catechism. You find me one quote from the Catechism that says all non-Catholic Christians are in an unsaved state. You're not getting that from the pope's document last week about the word "Church" in the proper sense, are you? Because if you are, I suggest you do more research. That whole document is being blown out of proportion. But anyway, you tell me specifically where the Catholic Faith teaches all non-Catholic Christians are unsaved. That's my laugh for the day. Thanks!


Here's the Catholic Catechism that you asked for in your note:

This quote is the heading of a section in the Catechism (before P 846).

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church through which men enter through Baptism as through the door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to enter it or to remain in it [fn, LG 14; cf. 16:16; John 3:5] (P 846).

All of that said, the RCC does put some qualifiers on this requirement:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation [fn, LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872].

Ironically, it would appear it is much better for someone to be ignorant about RCC's claims than to hear about such claims and then reject them based on their doctrine....maybe that's why they don't emphasize evangelism! The Catholic could very well be doing a disservice to people by telling them about the RCC. The person in ignorance might already be saved, but if a Catholic tells him about the RCC and that person rejects its claims, he will be damned. The person would have been much better off being left in ignorance!

[jba4241]

Ironically, it would appear it is much better for someone to be ignorant about RCC's claims than to hear about such claims and then reject them based on their doctrine....maybe that's why they don't emphasize evangelism! The Catholic could very well be doing a disservice to people by telling them about the RCC. The person in ignorance might already be saved, but if a Catholic tells him about the RCC and that person rejects its claims, he will be damned. The person would have been much better off being left in ignorance!Oh, no doubt. With knowing and beleiving the truth comes much responsibility!!! I'm sure you would agree that anyone who knows and believes that Jesus Christ IS the only way to salvation, yet chooses for whatever reason to not follow Him, is doomed, right???

The key is knows and believes. I've got to think that you no longer believe the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ. I'm right about that, correct? Because if one still believes that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ but leaves it anyway, yeah, I'd be scared!!!

That's what that underlined passage means. Willfully leaving that which you believe to be true. You don't believe it's true. Protestants don't believe it's true. Fundamentalists don't believe it's true. All non-Catholics don't believe it's true. You are not -- ARE NOT -- what that passage speaks about.

Joe

p.s. The line there at the end about those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ or His Chruch says they "MAY" achieve eternal salvation. It does not say WILL attain salvation. Many will disagree on that point anyway, as there's a huge thread in Apologetics on that point. Most people here would suggest that God created souls who go to hell through no fault of their own. That concept and a loving, just God does not make sense!!!

[Guy4God]

Why not...the False Prophet comes out of the earth doesn't he?

[dramama]

Just more things falling into place......

[ATYCLB]

......state that Allah and God Almighty are the same? I need to do more study on that one. Plus, where did a pope ever say Allah and God are the same?"Christians and Muslims: We have many things in common as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world. It is marked by numerous signs of hope, but also by signs of anguish. Abraham is the model for us all of faith in God: submission to his will and trust in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection."
~ Pope John Paul II

Are you referring to the Catechism where it states that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God? I do believe all three are monotheistic, and I'm just not sure if it's the same God or not. As I said, I need to do more study.841:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,
in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states that Muslims acknowledge
"the Creator" and that they and Christians adore "the one" God.

The Catechism is clear that the RCC believes that Muslims and Christians
believe in the same God.

However, Allah makes it very clear that he and the Christian God are not the same:

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.
That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of
old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
(Qur’an 9:30)

"Say: Praise be to Allah, Who begets no son, Who has no partner in [His] dominion
and Who [needs] none to protect Him from humiliation;' And Magnify Him with all
magnificence."
(al-Isra' 17/111)

"Allah did not beget a son; Nor is there any god along with Him; Otherwise each god
would have taken away what he had created and some of them would have lorded over
others. May Allah, Be Glorified above all that they allege. He knows what is hidden and
what is exposed. May He Be Exalted over all that they ascribe as partners [to Him]."
(al-Mu'minun 23/91-92)

Allah clearly states that he has no son. Allah is clear that Jesus was nothing more
than a prophet.

2 Corinthians 11:4 tells us:

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye
receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have
not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

Muslims reject the true Jesus and what the Gospels teach us. They embrace
"another Jesus" and "another gospel".

Islam . . . Allah . . . preaches another Jesus.

The RCC clearly bears with him.

The RCC is either completely ignorant of the differences between Allah and the one
true God, the Creator . . . or it is intentionally being deceptive.

So, Joe, do you and Muslims worship and adore the same God . . . the one, merciful
God, the Creator, mankind's judge on the last day?

Is Allah your god? Your creator? Your judge on the last day?

[jba4241]

So, Joe, do you and Muslims worship and adore the same God . . . the one, merciful God, the Creator, mankind's judge on the last day?

Is Allah your god? Your creator? Your judge on the last day?No, Allah is not. God is. However, I guess the point is even if someone has a mixed up idea of God doesn't mean they're not worshipping the same God. I may THINK God is an overweight old man. That's probably not right. But it doesn't mean I'm not worshipping God! I just have the wrong image of Him. He is still God.

That's how I look at Muslims. They have the wrong image of Him, no doubt, but it doesn't mean they're not worshipping God. Just like the Jews have the wrong image of Him. They don't think He has a Son. But He does. Does that mean they are not worshipping Him??? No.

Listen, I am someone who has little respect for the Mulsim faith. I'm no defender of them, trust me. But explain to me how what you posted differs from the Jews who deny their God has a Son, yet you accept that from them. Why?

Joe

[mercyandgrace]

Because the Jews are God's chosen people, Joe.

The Muslim religion is a cult. A counterfeit religion.