Pope says we need to listen to the voice of the earth

[jba4241]

Unfortunately, I think this thread has run its course. Let me say this. Personally, me personally, I'm not so sure God and Allah are the same. There have been reasonable arguments on this thread alone that I can see both sides. Perhaps they are not. Certainly, my long ago dead ancestors would tell me they weren't. (The ones fighting in the Crusades!) Maybe those Catholics would be appalled at the suggestion.

I wish I had the time to study this more at length. And maybe I will do some study. But what I do know is that at this point there is no joining of the Catholics and Muslims, not in any practical sense of the issue. I read the catechism differently than you when it talks about Muslims being included in the PLAN of salvation. But like our interpretatios of the Bible, we'll probably never agree on that part.

Wasn't it just last summer that this pope quoted someone in history saying basically "nothing good ever came of Islam"? Remember the Muslim world was in rage over his statement? The Muslims will certainly never join with the Catholics. Ever. They hate us. They see us as the center of Christianity. They see the Catholic Church, and the pope, as the head of all Christians -- even though you guys definitely don't consider that. So this suggestion or overtone that we're going to join with the Muslims is almost laughable. Again, they hate Catholics.

Even if some Catholics and other Christians in a sense of some common humanity pray to our God with or at the same time as some moderate Muslims pray to basically nothing, a false god, which is nothing, we're never going to become one. And the more the Muslims wage war against the west through terrorism, the less and less likely that is ever going to be. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some form of terrorism by the Muslims will be perpretrated directly on the Vatican.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting debate. I certainly have no issue with you suggesting God and Allah are not the same. So in that sense, you probably won this argument! :hug

Joe

[ATYCLB]

Personally, me personally, I'm not so sure God and Allah are the same. There have been reasonable arguments on this thread alone that I can see both sides. Perhaps they are not.

I wish I had the time to study this more at length. And maybe I will do some study.

Please do, Joe.


But what I do know is that at this point there is no joining of the Catholics and Muslims, not in any practical sense of the issue.

The Muslims will certainly never join with the Catholics. Ever. They hate us. They see us as the center of Christianity. They see the Catholic Church, and the pope, as the head of all Christians -- even though you guys definitely don't consider that. So this suggestion or overtone that we're going to join with the Muslims is almost laughable. Again, they hate Catholics.

I know it upsets you when I do this, and hopefully you understand that isn't what I'm trying
to do, but please take a few moments to read the following articles:


Mary can bring religions together says Muslim writer
7-3-2006
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/muslimary774.html



Mary, Our Hope For Peace With The Muslim World
http://www.cfpeople.org/FrRay/Mary2002a.htm


I read the catechism differently than you when it talks about Muslims being included in the PLAN of salvation. But like our interpretatios of the Bible, we'll probably never agree on that part.

As far as this particular discussion goes, Joe, it's less about a position someone holds in
someone else's plan of salvation and more about an incorrect identification of Allah and God.


Anyway, thanks for the interesting debate. I certainly have no issue with you suggesting God and Allah are not the same. So in that sense, you probably won this argument! :hug
Not looking to win an argument, Joe. Just looking for some good Bible study with my friends.

:hug back atcha!

[jba4241]

I know it upsets you when I do this, and hopefully you understand that isn't what I'm trying to do, but please take a few moments to read the following articles.ATYCLB, I did quickly read them, but I will come back to read them again. I just want to say that I know there's this stuff out there. Oh, by the way, doesn't upset me, and I definitely know you weren't doing that!!

But having said that, I still think these groups are a minority at this point. AT THIS POINT. I will keep my ears tuned for sure. But as I said, the bulk of Muslims hate us Catholics. I just can't see them breaking bread together. And as one who has a devotion to Mary, I hope through her intercession we do become one -- as in they convert to Christianity!!!! But I personally don't see it happening. I think it is going to take the Second Coming of Christ to do that.

The reason I don't fear all this one world religion under the Roman Catholic Church is because we are hated from all sides. We are the enemy to Protestants. We are the enemy to most Muslims. The Jews respect us, but many still want to blame the Catholic Church for the Holocaust. Just about every group hates the Roman Catholic Church. I accept that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But it seems rather ridiculous to suggest that everyone's going to join under the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, just look at the outcry from the pope's writings two weeks ago. Did THAT document appear to be calling all to embrace Catholicism. If that was the intent, it failed miserably.

Now, if something happens, i.e., a false prophet, enters into the church and changes all our beliefs, and everyone joins under that man with new beliefs, sure, it could happen. But it wouldn't be Catholic anymore, and any Catholic who has studied our teachings will recognize that and reject it. That's why we believe Tradition is so important. If all these new teachings come out that contradict what we've believed for 2,000 years, informed Catholics would not go against it.

It might interest you to know that in some Catholic private prophecies it is said that there will come a time when the true pope must flee Rome and an anti-pope will take over. It happened a couple times hundreds and hundreds of years ago where there were more than one claim to who was the true pope. Thankfully, that dispute was political and not theological. But we Catholics with an interest in End Times are very aware that something like that could happen in the future. But there will always be a remnant of true believers.

But at this point, ATYCLB, you have to admit there just can't be a joining under Catholicism with so many groups hating the Church.

Joe

[jba4241]

By the way, I found this headline and article interesting in light of our discussion here:

Pope's private secretary warns of Islamization of Europe. Article here (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1185379013641&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull).

Joe

[Biblenuggetlady]

Wow....ok, let me explain this as simply as I can....

Allah is SATAN!

Walid Shoebat's 15 year old son just wrote his first book, it is called In The Footsteps of Satan. He clearly lays out Islam - and all false religions - how they are all worshipping satan and how satan tried to mirror Christ in his "false religions". So many people today are "thinking", oh it's all the same God, just a different name, etc that this FIFTEEN YEAR old decided he had to right a book to give to those of his own generation because the lie is being propogated. Boy, I pray God mightily bless this boy and the whole Shoebat family and keep them safe.

It will be available next week on ecommerce. Here are a couple links and a phone number if you'd like to call and order it. 720 935 2826

www.insatansfootsteps.com

and a video clip he produced:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b4_1185134898&c=1


Walid Shoebat an ex-muslim terrorist, now a born again-Israeli defending Christian man and he is an excellent resource for explaining who "allah" is.
http://www.shoebat.com/

See also:

http://evidenceandanswers.org/

[jba4241]

Wow....ok, let me explain this as simply as I can....

Allah is SATAN!

Walid Shoebat's 15 year old son just wrote his first book, it is called In The Footsteps of Satan. He clearly lays out Islam - and all false religions - how they are all worshipping satan and how satan tried to mirror Christ in his "false religions". So many people today are "thinking", oh it's all the same God, just a different name, etc that this FIFTEEN YEAR old decided he had to right a book to give to those of his own generation because the lie is being propogated. Boy, I pray God mightily bless this boy and the whole Shoebat family and keep them safe.

It will be available next week on ecommerce. Here are a couple links and a phone number if you'd like to call and order it. 720 935 2826

www.insatansfootsteps.com

and a video clip he produced:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b4_1185134898&c=1


Walid Shoebat an ex-muslim terrorist, now a born again-Israeli defending Christian man and he is an excellent resource for explaining who "allah" is.
http://www.shoebat.com/

See also:

http://evidenceandanswers.org/Two interesting things. First, it's interesting it was his Catholic wife who first stood up to him and told him to read the Bible for himself.

Secondly, this quote from an interview of his:

"Shoebat admonished Christians about falsely degrading each other and not focusing on Islam’s role in Revelation, “Every single country mentioned in the Scriptures, regarding the end of time, that God punishes, for attacking Israel, is Muslim today. Yet as soon as I became Christian, I started looking at all these interpretations, and they told me that the Catholic Church is the Harlot of Babylon, and that the Anti-Christ is coming from Europe. Where in the world did you get this idea? Rome was mentioned fifteen times in the Bible, not once in this fashion. … Do you have 365 days, eight hours a day, so I can show you what the Bible says about the coming Islamic invasion of the world? It’s all over Scripture! God didn’t forget to tell us. You forgot to read the Bible. It is all in there." Article found here (http://www.mcnews.org/michiana_education.html).

Joe

[jba4241]

Another interesting tidbit from Walid Shoebat:

"Mystery Babylon is NOT Rome as popularly thought or the Catholic Church, but Islam and Arabia. Do a search on Arabia in the Bible and see for yourself, then do a search on Rome and you will see about 15 hits with not one instance of a punishment."

Full article here (http://www.therefinersfire.org/psalm_83.htm).

Hey, I think I like this guy!!! Thanks, biblenuggetlady. I will definitely read his stuff about Islam!!!

Joe

[BigBunny]

www.insatansfootsteps.com

and a video clip he produced:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b4_1185134898&c=1

that was good :thumb but how can you protect someone who from a very young age has it put into their mind all the time, every day that Allah is God and it's ok to kill in his name? :scratch

[krw0315]

...That's why we believe Tradition is so important...

well there's yer problem, Pilgrim </John Wayne>

search the Scriptures: Jesus had something to say about the "traditions of men" and it wasn't approving

[ATYCLB]

But at this point, ATYCLB, you have to admit there just can't be a joining under Catholicism with so many groups hating the Church.


Fátima to become interfaith shrine!
11-1-03
http://www.dailycatholic.org/no110803.htm

Delegates attending the Vatican and United Nations (UN) inspired annual interfaith congress "The Future of God", held during October in Fátima, heard how the Shrine is to be developed into a centre where all the religions of the world will gather to pay homage to their various gods. The Congress was held in the Paul VI Pastoral Centre and presided over by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon José de Cruz Policarpo.

The Shrine's rector, Monsignor Luciano Guerra, told the Congress that Fátima "will change for the better." Addressing Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist and African Pagan representatives he stated: "The future of Fátima, or the adoration of God and His mother at this holy Shrine, must pass through the creation of a shrine where different religions can mingle. The inter-religious dialogue in Portugal, and in the Catholic Church, is still in an embryonic phase, but the Shrine of Fátima is not indifferent to this fact and is already open to being a universalistic place of vocation."

The Hindu representative Ansshok Ansraj, described how already in the Far East millions of Hindus are getting "positive vibrations" from visiting Marian shrines without endangering their faith.

Monsignor Guerra pointed out that the very fact that Fátima is the name of a Muslim and Mohammed's daughter, is indicative that the Shrine must be open to the co-existence of various faiths and beliefs. According to the Monsignor: "Therefore we must assume that it was the will of the Blessed Virgin Mary that this comes about this way." Traditional Catholics opposed to the Congress were described by the Monsignor as "old fashioned, narrow minded, fanatic extremists and provocateurs."

For the first time in the 86-year history of Fátima all of the Pagan and Christian delegates were invited to participate in the Ecumenical celebrations. One of the principle speakers, the Jesuit theologian Father Jacques Dupuis, was insistent that the religions of the world must unite. "The religion of the future will be a general converging of religions in a universal Christ that will satisfy all", he said.

The Belgium born theologian argued: "The other religious traditions in the world are part of God's plan for humanity and the Holy Spirit is operating and present in Buddhist, Hindu and other sacred writings of Christian and non-Christian faiths as well." In an impassioned plea he said: "The universality of God's kingdom permits this, and this is nothing more than a diversified form of sharing in the same mystery of salvation. In the end it is hoped that the Christian will become a better Christian and each Hindu a better Hindu."

An official statement put out by the Congress called for a non-proselytising approach by all religions. "No one religion can irradiate another", it said "or strengthen itself by downplaying others and an open dialogue is the way to building bridges and tearing down walls of centuries of hate. What is needed is that each religion be true to its faith integrally and treat each religion on the same footing of equality with no inferior or superiority complexes." It emphasised that the secret to peace amongst all religions is admitting that contradictions exist between creeds but to concentrate on what unites them as opposed to what separates them.

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