Help Please

[true2yeshua]

My concern is that we have many friends there, and I do not want to hurt them by explaining why we have to leave, but at the same time, I love them, and do not want them to be mislead.

The Lord spoke to my heart a couple months ago, and said it is time to move on, and Iam praying about how soon to do it.

Byrd,

Leaving a church where we have grown to love one another is a painful separation. Our family endured this just last September, but God also led us out the door. He does not want His Bride muddied up by the apostacies that are part of this march toward the one-world-religion.

He will bless you for obedience, and for standing uncompromisingly on His Word. We remain in prayer - finally with less tears - for those friends we left behind at our former church. Perhaps God will present an opportunity for you and your wife to share the reason for your departure. :hug

Abba, I praise You for revealing Your Will to Byrd and his wife, and ask that You grant them peace. Abba, I pray You guide them to the very door of the church You would have them attend. In Jesus name, Amen.

Shalom in Christ
__________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem :pray :israel

[Byrd]

Is any place safe anymore? I just did a search & read of the conflict between Chuch Smith Sr. & Jr. It doe seem that his son has jumped headlong into the emerging, contemplative prayer movement, even writing a book about it. When we visit, if we like the church, I will discuss with the Pastor before we make a decision about their stand on the subject. A month agon, I did not know this stuff existed, and now my head is swimming with it.

As I have said earlier, thank you all so very much for your insight, and willingness to help and share. Someday I will be able to return the blessing!

[Berean Girl]

Would you like the paper Roger Oakland wrote about the conflict and also the pastors note that Chuck Senior wrote?

[JoelH]

and of course it's connection with World Vision:




Of course it is good to help the poor.. but the message of the cross is totally NOT the priority.

My questions:

1,Do save the starving and they still go to hell... or
2.Do we saved the starving by feeding them with God's Word and the message of Jesus' salvation.

seems the concentration is only on #1 You can easliy look into all of this and see the absence of the gospel message.

I think this may not be a good enough response. Some of its proponents will respond: "Doing #1 will ppanting the seeds of the gospel for #2" or saying that "You are presenting a strawman argument: we in fact support doing both #1 and 2! They are not mutually exclusive!"

But the way I see it, the crux is that:

1. 99% these people will say we avoid "old-style" gospel sharing because it is too confrontational and will not plant the gospel seed yada yada. The problem is that they will tone down the gospel so much that until there is no real gospel at all. This approach is in fact nothing new and I can quote YMCA and the Salvation Army as the example: they were formed in the 19th century to specifically plant the seeds of the gospel by doing social works, and has basically become charities and social clubs and virtually forgotten the gospel. Been there, done that, and look at what happened to them?

2. A more fundamental question is: what is Christian love? Does it simply mean accept someone's state as it is because "everything is from God and thus reveals His goodness?" or rather because we are made in God's image, each one has his own dignity and thus we always help someone in bad plight and point him to something better?

I believe the contemporary pop 'evangelicalism' has no biblical answers towards these two questions.

[Berean Girl]

Just the mere fact that they are under the auspices of that beast on the east river, the UNITED NATIONS, is troubling in and of itself. As you may know or may not know, that is a totally antichristian institution yet christians are "in league and fellowship" with darkness and wickedness. Not only that, but they dont even support the Jewish refugees and orphansbut rather favor the "palestinians" and arabs' plight. This is unacceptable.

Granted, there may be some born-again Christians who are working with that organization who may have the grace to share the Gospel, but that organization is far from being a fundamental Christian organization, as it owes its allegiance to its parent, the UN, as it is funded by them....

So one has to wonder, why would a so-called christian organization who claims to be such be so happily in league with an antichristian institution. They promote Rick Warren social gospel vs. God's Gospel of salvation and works as a result of faith through grace.

I dont know about you, but I have major issues with that.... alot of handholding and singing kumbaya going on these days. :rolleyes

[antitox]

I had left my church after 13 yrs there because they had gone in that direction (and other things too). Really hated that situation.

Pastors will seek programs that they think will get the masses - fill up his church bldg. Thats' why Rick Warren's program swept us away.
Seems that it all becomes numbers and noses in the end.

Thre western church in the 80s started the megachurch syndrome. Pastors wanted to amass a large assembly and have an empire. As you can see, some fell and others lost their zeal for the Lord, and their church either bottomed out, or they started teaching/preaching other stuff (or someone else's teaching).
It is sad, and since we are seeing so much of it, we wonder if most of the church today is becoming apostate. I'm not sure, but I do think that a good church is becoming harder to find.

[Byrd]

Berean Girl, yes I would like copies of those papers please. Another interesting note about our "church" I found out while doing research last night that Celebrate Recovery is another Rick Warren program. We are doing that also. It seems that the Pastor is trying to duplicate Saddleback Church.

I finished "A Time Of Departing" and passed it along to another church member, and plan on ordering some more. When people ask why we left, I think I will just give them a copy of that book.

[WhitemoonG]

Byrd May the Lord Jesus Christ be with you and sustain you!


I have read with interest your comments about your situation and the challenges you have run into, along with the excellent responses here.

It is indeed kind of interesting and at times seems a bit new and different to be fellowshipping and sharing insights and advice with other believers here, but I think you are already noting how many thrive on it, with additional blessings and encouragement that might not be as easily obtained elsewhere. Many of us also see our postings as something that will also benefit other posters on the board, with practical suggestions, spiritual insights, as well as stimulating our own knowledge of important issues of the day. We all learn here.

The situation you describe, unfortunately, is becoming a frequent theme everywhere. Our family had it start to run into us with some provocative stuff presented at a women's Bible study that started to have my wife be concerned. Then, our wonderful youngest son started bringing to our attention some weird things being promoted within the youth Sunday School, and youth groups. This included a weird, dark 24 hour "prayer room" that seemed more like some LSD house with black light, graffiti everywhere. It seemed to be patterned after Pete Grieg's "Red Moon Rising," a somewhat militant emergent style youth phenomenon. He also brought to our attention the "NOOMA" series and teachings of the flamboyant, "refreshing," "exciting," Rob Bell of Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, with his AWFUL, heretical books VELVET ELVIS and SEX GOD that are sweeping youth programs like fire everywhere.

We thought that within our large, well known Southern Baptist Church, with one pastor having a national reputation for Christian books about personal relationships, that surely the Senior Pastor must not be aware of this stuff being promoted and taking hold. So, My wife wrote a detailed notebook, along with a cover letter from myself, documenting the things brought to our attention, and questions with solid reference sources about the false teachers who were being promoted, asking for a quiet confidential meeting with him. We assumed he would be concerned and alarmed and wish to do exactly that, and soon.

It was quite disappointing, however, to hear nothing for 6 weeks, and after leaving a polite inquiry message about it, having some "junior varsity" church staff instructed to contact us, meet with us, and "clear this thing up." We, not knowing who knew what, and when they did or didn't know it, were not interested in "getting someone in trouble," just simply had grave concerns about the materials and mindsets of those promoting it, and wanted to know why, and what they were intending to do about it. We discussed it with polite but defensive ears, who seemed more intent on "patting the dog" as a formality, before ignoring everything, and little changed.

A difficult thing, Byrd, that I just want to caution you about, if it hasn't happened already, is receiving calls or messages from those you genuinely liked and hit it off with at the former church, who wonder "where've you been? You're just isolating yourself, and God doesn't want that! Why are you so hung up about that stuff? God doesn't want people being "divisive," and I don't know about that stuff, but I know where Pastor Milquetoast's Heart is!"

Taking a stand is not always easy, but even if we wished things were smoother, and the way they should be, it just has to be.

We've been labeled "divisive," "obsessed," "narrow," and probably lots of other things like it.


However, I often think of it, being considered GUILTY of the offense of standing firmly for the Lord Jesus Christ, and his saving grace , and salvation by faith via the death, burial, and resurrection of the perfect lamb.

The more I contemplate the trends anymore, I get a buzz out of thinking that my life is taking it's "Custer's last stand" on the Solid Rock, all other ground is sinking sand!


Byrd, if it helps you, let me share a tidbit that gave me an inspiration. Recently I was starting to read MacArthur's book, "The Truth War," which is a Must, superb exposition of the emergent menace vs. sound biblical teaching and beliefs, and Christian living based on those beliefs. There was a chapter early on about the famous council of Nicea in AD 325 in which the early church figures had to discuss what to do with the growing heresies, and re-affirm the basic CORE tenets of Christianity. Arius, whose heretical teachings denying the Deity of Christ, lost big at that conference, but he was wily and persistent, and succeeded in persuading many in years following, that the council had been wrong, and there was a strong push to compromise, or revoke the council's creed, and accept the attractive heresies. Unfortunately, there were few who refused, and there was one church leader named Athanasius, who was very pro-active and VIGOROUS in defending the truth, and promoting the deity of Christ and other core doctrines despite widespread criticism, and at one point his "friends" pointed out to him that he was the ONLY voice against all the others who felt it better to accept and absorb the heresies into mainstream. When someone opined that the whole world disagreed with his unyielding, uncompromising stance on the deity of Christ, Athanasius replied, "Then I am against the world."

This was later commemorated in the Latin phase


Athanasius contra mundum.



Now, despite any faults the guy may have had otherwise,

That's MY KIND OF GUY!


I think we all are sensing that more and more of this kind of need and occasion to stand firm for the solid, clear truths of the Gospel as clearly revealed in the Holy Scriptures, is taking place more and more often. The almost message free watered down "Christianity Lite," is becoming the popular favorite, which is truly sad.

But as for standing firm for the Lord Jesus Christ, and the profound, yet simple Gospel of sinners saved by grace, it is something I find it an HONOR to be pegged with. If simply being willing to scrutinize and question watered down apostasy, and refusing to abandon contending for the faith is considered "divisive," then I'll be honored to be "divisive" until I die!


The Lord's blessing and sustaining strength be with you Byrd, and all here!

[Berean Girl]

I have to get some assistance in accessing these files as they are archived on my system and I can't open them. I will post what I can find in the interim.

[Byrd]

WhitemoonG, what a wonderful post! You brought to light things I had been thinking about, and pondering what to do about. I work with several people in the church, and started an Adult S.S. class that grew to be large enough they had to purchase a "portable" classroom as we had outgrown all the other rooms in the church except the sanctuary. Now I know why it grew, as I taught verse by verse Bible study, with much discussion concerning hot topics like homosexuality condemned in Romans, and the Gifts of the Spirit that Paul straightened out the Corinthian church on. I prepared lesson outlines, and gave homework for study during the week for the next class. I did not lecture but encouraged questions and discussion, always stressing that we were in class to learn and grow in Christ.

So...it is inevitable that I will be asked "Where have you been?" and I do owe the Pastor an explination for our exit. This is where the pain comes, as I love these people, and saw them come alive when taught God's Word, and I do not want to see them hurt, but I must stand for the Truth, and I will not give my tithe to a church that is not following God's Word, and preaching the eternal truth of Christ's death, burail, and resurrection, as well as His soon coming! Interesting note; when I taught the Book of Daniel, I asked the Pastor what his stand on the end times and when the Rapture would occur, because I wanted to make sure I was on the same page, and not causing confusion. His answer was, "I trust you." He said that he did not study end times much, so was kind on "uninformed" to give an opinion!

Thank God that Jesus has been made unto us wisdom, and that when we lack wisdom we can ask for it and get a liberal dose, as I sure need it! I guess I will just say I left for the Word of God, and the sake of the Gospel.