Related to Spiritual Abraham

[Sing4Him]

Can anyone expound on what this is?
layman's terms... please

and who believes this??

[Mentat]

I think you are referring to the difference between Abraham's physical seed or the spiritual children of Abraham. Not biological heritage but those who love God in the example of Abraham.

Matthew 3:7-10 Where John the Baptist warns the religious leaders that being Jewish (Abraham's physical seed) was no protection. (Also Luke 3:7-9)

John 8:31-45 where he explains to the leaders the difference between a descendent (physically) is different than having the faith that Abraham had.

Paul talks about it in Romans chapter 4:1-16 and Romans 9:6-13. Also in Galatians 3:6-18

In all cases making the point that Abraham has two types of descendants - physical Israel and spiritual Israel.

[gregbed]

I think you are referring to the difference between Abraham's physical seed or the spiritual children of Abraham. Not biological heritage but those who love God in the example of Abraham.

Matthew 3:7-10 Where John the Baptist warns the religious leaders that being Jewish (Abraham's physical seed) was no protection. (Also Luke 3:7-9)

John 8:31-45 where he explains to the leaders the difference between a descendent (physically) is different than having the faith that Abraham had.

Paul talks about it in Romans chapter 4:1-16 and Romans 9:6-13. Also in Galatians 3:6-18

In all cases making the point that Abraham has two types of descendants - physical Israel and spiritual Israel.

In the Luke & Matthew passages then the physical descendants would be the trees to whom the axe is laid. Jesus does not use the word spiritual, He says that "from these stones God is able to raise up children of Abraham." Jesus does not give any hint that these descendants would be limited in any way. And doesn't seem to recognize any benefit for those that are merely physical descendants.
In John 8:44, Jesus says that to be a descendant of Abraham without the faith of Abraham is to be a son of the devil. It's hard to imagine any benefits flowing to a son of the devil.
As I read Romans 4:1-16, I see no indication from Paul of two sets of descendants with two separate blessings. In fact just the opposite. Rom. 4:13-14 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified"; And again in Rom 4:16 "For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,"
Rather than making distinctions, Paul is trying to obliterate them.
In Romans 9:6-13, Paul only deals with those who are Jews by birth and his point is that they are not all beneficiaries of the promise. Those who are of faith are beneficiaries and those who are not have nothing, just like Ishmael and Esau. Paul does not mention Gentile believers until verse 24 and his words there and following argue for a full inclusion of the Gentiles.
Again Galatians 3:6-18, does not make a distinction between a spiritual seed and a physical seed with separate sets of promises.
Gal. 3:7 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham."
In fact, Paul explicitly says there is only one seed. Gal 3:16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ." So there is only one seed - Christ and all others are seeds to the extent they are in Christ.
(Paul seems to be saying in v. 17 that the Law was a side program [a parenthesis, if you will] in God's program of redemption as it moved from Abraham to the Church)
It is interesting that as Paul moves through Chapters 3&4 of Galatians that he uses 4 different words for descendants - in v. 3:16 & 29, he uses sperma (seed & descendant respectively); in v. 3:7&26 and 4:6 he uses uioi (sons); in v. 29, he uses kleronimoi (heirs): in 4:28, 31, he uses tekna (sons). It is almost as if he is preempting the 'hair-splitting' that is attempted with these passages.
It is also instructive that Paul, tells us how, or in what manner Christians are children of Abraham. In Gal 4:28 he writes "And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise." The word for like is kata, that is "in the manner of". So we Christian are children of Abraham in the manner of Isaac.

[Mentat]

In the Luke & Matthew passages then the physical descendants would be the trees to whom the axe is laid. Jesus does not use the word spiritual, He says that "from these stones God is able to raise up children of Abraham." Jesus does not give any hint that these descendants would be limited in any way. And doesn't seem to recognize any benefit for those that are merely physical descendants..

You and I are in total agreement -- I think you misunderstood my post. (Or I wasn't clear in my point.) I agree that that the real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. That was the point Jesus was making to the people, as you mentioned -- and I had in mind, in my original post. (John 8:39-47)

I was making the distinction of Jewish heritage and not "saved" vs. any heritage (Jews or not) and "saved" by Faith in God. As in John 15, God has grafted in the non-jews into the vine. All believers wheither Jew or Greek are saved. I was not saying two type of blessings or salvations.

To go further back, to Joshua, Rahab and family, was grafted into the vine, and Achan and family was removed. The true vine being those with faith in God. (Hebrews 11) (Also Ruth, a moabite - grafted in)

To me "sons of Abraham" = Spiritual Israel = The Invisible Church
vs.
without Faith - children of the devil - the lost

[gregbed]

I think you misunderstood my post.

I did. Thanks for the clarification.

Greg

[CarolLyn]

To me "sons of Abraham" = Spiritual Israel = The Invisible Church
vs.
without Faith - children of the devil - the lost

I think the pov you are presenting is Covenant Theology. You are taking Romans 11 and applying it all the way back into the Old Testament. Is the term “spiritual Israel” used anywhere in scripture to describe the church? I can’t find it.

According to Romans chapter 4, if we have faith, that faith is counted to us as righteousness: Romans 4:3. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." and Romans 4:23. Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him,
24. but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25. He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. So, in this sense, and according to these scriptures, if we have faith as Abraham had faith, then we become spiritual children of Abraham. Nothing is said here about us becoming spiritual Israel.

Now, let’s look at the following verses in Romans 11:
Romans 11
5. In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7. What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8. just as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.
9. And David says,
"Let their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10. "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever."
11. I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12. Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
13. But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14. if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15. For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16. And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too.
17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
24. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25. For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in;

A careful reading of especially verses 17 & 18 and 24 & 25 will show that there are two olive trees. 1) a cultivated olive tree, which is Israel and 2) a wild olive tree, which is elect Gentiles. Also, we see reference to the rich root. This root is Jesus. You see, branches were broken off of the cultivated olive tree (Israel) and a wild olive tree (the entire tree, which consists of elect Gentiles during this present dispensation) was grafted directly into the root (Jesus). So, the part of Israel that was not hardened has Jesus as it’s root and the elect Gentiles grafted into that same root. That does not make the church spiritual Israel, but rather it makes us spiritual Christians, along with believing Jews. So,the present day church consists of Gentiles and Jews who are one in Jesus (the root). Jesus is our common root, and the rich sap, (the Holy Spirit) flows from the root to feed both trees,which have become one.

Oh hallelujah! Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Edited portions of this post are highlighted in blue.

[Mentat]

You see, branches were broken off of the cultivated olive tree (Israel) and a wild olive tree (the entire tree, which is the church) was grafted directly into the root (Jesus).

I think the wild tree represents the gentiles in general, with the faithful gentile branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree. That we are allowed to join into the family of God's chosen. I don't see the church as the wild tree.

So, the part of Israel that was not hardened has Jesus as it’s root and the church is grafted into that same root. That does not make the church spiritual Israel, but rather it makes us spiritual Christians, along with believing Jews. So,the present day church consists of Gentiles and Jews who are one in Jesus. Jesus is our common root, and the rich sap, (the Holy Spirit) flows from the root to feed both trees,which have become one.

Agreed



verse 26 - all Israel will be saved - I see that as all who have faith - the true "Israel" as one who wrestles with God and seeks to know Him and have relationship to Him. (Romans 9:1-8) (John 15:1-11)

[CarolLyn]

Originally Posted by CarolLyn
You see, branches were broken off of the cultivated olive tree (Israel) and a wild olive tree (the entire tree, which is the church) was grafted directly into the root (Jesus).

I think the wild tree represents the gentiles in general, with the faithful gentile branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree. That we are allowed to join into the family of God's chosen. I don't see the church as the wild tree.

So, the part of Israel that was not hardened has Jesus as it’s root and the church is grafted into that same root. That does not make the church spiritual Israel, but rather it makes us spiritual Christians, along with believing Jews. So,the present day church consists of Gentiles and Jews who are one in Jesus. Jesus is our common root, and the rich sap, (the Holy Spirit) flows from the root to feed both trees,which have become one.

Agreed

verse 26 - all Israel will be saved - I see that as all who have faith - the true "Israel" as one who wrestles with God and seeks to know Him and have relationship to Him. (Romans 9:1-8) (John 15:1-11)

:thumb Ah, you caught it! I was hoping I could edit my post before you read it. Indeed, the wild olive is not the church, but rather consists of elect Gentiles. I went back and edited my post and put the edited parts in blue. I'm sorry if it caused confusion. :doh

I think the part where we disagree is in regard to where the wild olive is grafted in. You said above "the faithful gentile branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree". However, the text says in verse 17:

Romans 11:17 "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree," Some translations add the word "branches" into this verse. That word is not in the original text and the addition of that word has caused a lot of confusion. The literal text does not say that "wild olive branches" were grafted in to the cultivated olive tree, nor does it say that we were grafted into the tree, but rather that we were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the root (Jesus). We were grafted into the root (which is Jesus), not the tree (which is Israel. It is so curcial to get this destinction. We were grafted into Jesus, not Israel. This means that we are not "spiritual Israel", but we are spiritual members of Christ's body along with present day Jews who trust in Jesus.

As far as the statement that "all Israel will be saved", this is to be taken literally. There is no justification for applying this phrase to the church. At the end of the tribulation, every true Israelite who has survived the tribulation will trust in Jesus as their Messiah, Savior and Lord. This is prophesiedd in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 20:41. "As a soothing aroma I shall accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I shall prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
42. "And you will know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.
43. "And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done.
44. "Then you will know that I am the Lord when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel," declares the Lord God.'"

This is speaking of literal, national Israel being saved, the entire nation will be saved at one time, at the end of the tribulation.

During the tribulation, 2/3 of Israel (along with 2/3 of everyone in the whole world) will be killed by the judgments of God that will come on this earth. The following scripture tells about that and about how God will save all Israel at that time. This is talking about literal Israel.

Zechariah 13:8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Here is another scripture from Zechariah about this same event. This is when Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year tribulation and all Israel is saved:

Zechariah 12:10. "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.

[CarolLyn]

Disregard this post. (It was an accident) :)

[gregbed]

I think the pov you are presenting is Covenant Theology.[/B]
I find it is helpful, at least in the beginning, to avoid labeling a particular exegesis. I find it a constant temptation to label some particular reading as belonging to a particular camp and then dismissing it on that basis rather than on its merits or lack thereof. There is a large variety of combinations of particular exegesis & derived doctrines. The Puritans, for instance, readily referred to themselves as spiritual Israel and at the same time believed in a mass conversion of Israel according to the flesh (national Israel, racial Israel - it's hard to find a term that works for all the different conversation, so I use the term Paul uses) just before the return of Christ.
I don't think any of us would want to think of ourselves as slaves to a particular systematic theology.

You are taking Romans 11 and applying it all the way back into the Old Testament. Is the term “spiritual Israel” used anywhere in scripture to describe the church? I can’t find it.

According to Romans chapter 4, if we have faith, that faith is counted to us as righteousness: Romans 4:3. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." and Romans 4:23. Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him,
24. but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25. He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. So, in this sense, and according to these scriptures, if we have faith as Abraham had faith, then we become spiritual children of Abraham. Nothing is said here about us becoming spiritual Israel.]
Let me answer this second point first. As I said in my original post there is no modifier "spiritual" used by Paul here. We are Abraham's children, descendents, heirs.

As to your first question, no the church is not called "spiritual" Israel, but it is call "true" Israel. Throughout Acts and the Epistles, "the circumcision" is a common synonym for Israel according to the flesh. You can see this in Acts 10:45, Rom. 4:9, Gal. 2:7-9, Titus 1:10 et. al. In the letter to Philippians, Paul warns them in 3:2 to beware of the "false circumcision" and in vs. 3 states we are "the circumcision" (the NASB adds the italicized "true" to convey the emphasis of the definite article.) In other words, there is the so-called Israel (Eph. 2:11) and then there is the real thing.
We might also ask why Paul felt the need to coin the term "Israel according to the flesh" (1 Cor. 10:18 NASB -see marginal note) if the word "Israel" could only be understood one way.
There are other places that the idea of the church as being part of Israel is heavily implied, although not stated explicitly. Such as, at the beginning of 1 Cor 10, when he writes "...that our fathers were all under the cloud..." even though the Corinthian church was probably predominately Gentile.



Now, let’s look at the following verses in Romans 11:


A careful reading of especially verses 17 & 18 and 24 & 25 will show that there are two olive trees. 1) a cultivated olive tree, which is Israel and 2) a wild olive tree, which is elect Gentiles. Also, we see reference to the rich root. This root is Jesus. You see, branches were broken off of the cultivated olive tree (Israel) and a wild olive tree (the entire tree, which consists of elect Gentiles during this present dispensation) was grafted directly into the root (Jesus). So, the part of Israel that was not hardened has Jesus as it’s root and the elect Gentiles grafted into that same root. That does not make the church spiritual Israel, but rather it makes us spiritual Christians, along with believing Jews. So,the present day church consists of Gentiles and Jews who are one in Jesus (the root). Jesus is our common root, and the rich sap, (the Holy Spirit) flows from the root to feed both trees,which have become one.
Edited portions of this post are highlighted in blue.

This is a novel (but not thereby disqualified) understanding of this passage. The "you" in Rom 11:17 is singular, so that would make each believer an individual olive tree to follow your exegesis through. You are right that the text just says "you are a wild olive" and leaves an implied pronoun for us to fill in from the context. Verse 17, by itself, would imply "branch" rather than "tree". He talks of "branches" being broken off and "you wild olive [something]being grafted in among the others" The other what? It is hard to see anyone understanding this as anything but "among the other branches" in the normal understanding of words, since this is the only obvious noun used in the sentence.
Also as you move down to vs. 24, it is explicitly stated that "you(singular)" has been "cut from the wild olive [I]tree" ["wild olive" is same as in verse 17 but in the genitive form rather than nominative form because the "you" is coming from it] Now, a tree is not cut from a tree. So vs. 24 requires that the "you" referred to be a branch or shoot not a tree. Also, it explicitly states that the wild olives are grafted onto the very same tree that previously rejecting Israel is grafted back onto when they believe. These elect Gentiles are removed from the tree which you are saying represents elect Gentiles - could you expand on that.
As I go back over your post, I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the broken off branches from the cultivated olive tree are believing Israelites or unbelieving Israelites?

Thank you for your postings,
Greg