Brothers and Sisters in Christ...

[LittleLadyLovinGod]

So what about the believers in churches like the Toronto blessing, Bethel Church in CA, foursquare churches, crazy charsimatic signs and wonders churches...i know that some of them probably truly love God. Do we call them brothers and sisters in Christ? Or not? Ive been thinking on this for a while...

[billiefan2000]

all I know about 4 square churches (never been to one) is very little

maybe someone can help me too on what exactly is a 4 square church





I assume you are talking about Bill Johnson when you bring up Bethel Church in CA

Johnson is a WOF teacher and involved with Mike Bickle and Elijah's list and Extreme Prophectic crowds

[His Bride]

So what about the believers in churches like the Toronto blessing, Bethel Church in CA, foursquare churches, crazy charsimatic signs and wonders churches...i know that some of them probably truly love God. Do we call them brothers and sisters in Christ? Or not? Ive been thinking on this for a while...

That's actually a really good question. I don't suppose you have come to a conclusion yet?

There are many, many crazy theologies out there. Many claim to be Christians. We don't know what is in the hearts of people, but we can know them by their fruit. Most of us are left wondering about some of them.
Not all are as outrageous as Todd Bentley. Look at their teachings. Are they scripturally supported?

Here in this forum we make known what is happening in churches all over the country who have sold out. They are no longer preaching sin and repentance. The message of the cross is considered bloody and brutal. Therefore, they reject it. They are embracing homosexuality, worldly principles, mysticism, Roman Catholicism...This is where we look. Do they preach the Jesus of the bible, the whole counsel of God? If not, in my mind they are suspect. And I would always advise fleeing from their churches!

This OP may get a lot of people stirred up. I'm looking forward to some answers from others.

[graybeard]

We are known as HIS people by our love, one for another, according to Jesus.
When you meet them how do they respond to you?
What they love reveals who they are.

[His Bride]

We are known as HIS people by our love, one for another, according to Jesus.
When you meet them how do they respond to you?
What they love reveals who they are.

Graybeard, we are commanded to love one another. But a lot of people are loving, and yet their doctrine is lacking. I think we must have both!

What we are seeing today in this "missional, emergent" generation is a church that wants to be loving and meets everyone's needs, but isn't clear about sin and repentance. The message of the cross is becoming foolishness to them. That's where much confusion comes in. They aren't as blatant as Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley. Their subtlty makes them even more dangerous.

[Tall Timbers]

So what about the believers in churches like the Toronto blessing, Bethel Church in CA, foursquare churches, crazy charsimatic signs and wonders churches...i know that some of them probably truly love God. Do we call them brothers and sisters in Christ? Or not? Ive been thinking on this for a while...

We'll know our brothers and sisters in Christ by their fruits, not by the church/congregation they belong to, though that might be a small clue.

[LittleLadyLovinGod]

Well I believe that there can definetly be born again christians going to those churches...so we would have to call them bros and sis' in Christ...but then we know the doctrine is off...so if they are going down a wrong doctrinal/emergent path but are born again, will they go in the Rapture?

[Tall Timbers]

Well I believe that there can definetly be born again christians going to those churches...so we would have to call them bros and sis' in Christ...but then we know the doctrine is off...so if they are going down a wrong doctrinal/emergent path but are born again, will they go in the Rapture?

If they're true believers and not pretenders, they'll go... then when we all get there we can laugh together at the different things we believed that turned out to be a little or a lot off.

[graybeard]

Graybeard, we are commanded to love one another. But a lot of people are loving, and yet their doctrine is lacking. I think we must have both!

What we are seeing today in this "missional, emergent" generation is a church that wants to be loving and meets everyone's needs, but isn't clear about sin and repentance. The message of the cross is becoming foolishness to them. That's where much confusion comes in. They aren't as blatant as Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley. Their subtlty makes them even more dangerous.

I absolutely agree. This is the "we are the world," "kumbaya" wishy-washy love that evaporates in an instant when their goals are challenged, or their doctrine questioned. If you identify with the whole WORD, recognize the sacrifice for sin, and the need for repentence and forgiveness through Jesus blood, and STAND UP FOR IT, you will not find your love for them returned. You will find contempt and be shown to the nearest exit.

[His Bride]

I absolutely agree. This is the "we are the world," "kumbaya" wishy-washy love that evaporates in an instant when their goals are challenged, or their doctrine questioned. If you identify with the whole WORD, recognize the sacrifice for sin, and the need for repentence and forgiveness through Jesus blood, and STAND UP FOR IT, you will not find your love for them returned. You will find contempt and be shown to the nearest exit.

I had a feeling we were on the same page!

[graybeard]

Maybe this will help.
John 6

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.


60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?


66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[

[graybeard]

Maybe this will help.
John 6

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.


60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?


66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[

Wanted to add that Jesus knew this hard truth would cause many to walk away. Who is willing and what does it mean to "eat His flesh and drink His blood"? It is still a fair measure of a believers depth.

[LightOfMyLife]

Christians are to love & pray for one another. Jesus says in Mark 8: 34 & 35 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. We are not to compromise the truth for this world. The true believers are the people who repent, believe, and accept the gift of grace. Their sins are washed in the blood. We need to not be led astray by false teachers.

[JoelH]

I'm a bit late here and others have provided detailed biblical answers that what we see as external manifestations of neighbourly love, zeal for missions, etc, does not necessarily mean Christian love.

But one observation I have seen is that the seeker sensitive/missional church do not believe in this philosophy when it comes to their attitude towards the Word of Faith movements. For example, Mark Driscoll does not pull punches when he condemns Joel Osteen, and Rick Warren also does not mince words when he denounces the teachings of Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn.

[LittleLadyLovinGod]

but see, i was part of a WOF church and i know that i was born again over 5 years ago...

[meshee]

I have a feeling I am going to sound sort of ignorant here, but I believe this is where much confusion comes into play. Almost all of the WOF churches I have been in have "scriptural support" for their views. And yet as being born-again we are to be led by the Spirit, so how is it that we are not all like minded where the Spirit is concerned?

[OnceWasLost]

This is actually an easy question, when you think about it. Doctrinal excesses may simply be just that, excesses. What saves a person in the Blood of Jesus. For all the hypothetical people in that list the simple question is; Do you know the Jesus of the Bible and have you asked Him to cleanse you from your unrighteousness in His blood? Does His righteousness cover you?

The Corinthians had some spiritual excesses to be sure, yet what did Paul say to them? Did he address them as fellow believers, although misguided by excesses?

1 Corinthians 15

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Paul put them in the same group as anyone who has heard the Gospel of the True Jesus, and not the imitation one. Where the most radical extremes of hyper charismatics get close to danger is the Jesus spoken of by some is not the same Jesus of Scripture.

Thus Paul warns;

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

[OnceWasLost]

I have a feeling I am going to sound sort of ignorant here, but I believe this is where much confusion comes into play. Almost all of the WOF churches I have been in have "scriptural support" for their views. And yet as being born-again we are to be led by the Spirit, so how is it that we are not all like minded where the Spirit is concerned?

The most simple answer is, are the gift for today, or did they end at the end of the Apostolic age? The disagreement begins there.

[meshee]

Yes OWL, but I suppose what I am asking is if we are filled with the Spirit why is there disagreement at all? Does that make sense? The Word doesn't change, maybe I'm just trying to be to in-depth here, hehe.

[LittleLadyLovinGod]

well i left the WOF church because i knew something wasnt right and the doctrine didnt sit right with me. i think you make a good point meshee, BUT not everyone listens to the Holy Spirit and may not even know that they are being convicted? i think there are many reasons why we arent all on the same page. the law is written on our hearts, and the Holy Spirit convects us...whether or not we obey is our choice.