Hey. I've had a great time discussing our views. I've got to go put a little one to bed and I think I'm gonna get on my eliptical. Have a great rest of the evening.
Hey. I've had a great time discussing our views. I've got to go put a little one to bed and I think I'm gonna get on my eliptical. Have a great rest of the evening.
Regular Member
Here's Jack Kelley's take on Luke 21:20Originally Posted by rescuedbyChrist
and the specific differences between Luke 21 and Matthew 24.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hama...kes-version-2/
And, have a good night!
bvaliant4him
The day of the Lord is a package deal: Rapture, tribulation, and 2nd coming (as in the days of Noah, the righteous being taken out of the way before the judgement).
Isaiah 62:6,7
Ransomed, Reconciled, Rejoicing, and soon to be Raptured!
bvaliant4him
I so agree with you!
Ransomed, Reconciled, Rejoicing, and soon to be Raptured!
Regular Member
Here is one of Clarence Larkin's charts. This one shows the various judgments. Notice what he labels "Judgment no. 4" which is the "Sheep and Goat Judgment of the Nations", which takes place on the earth, after the tribulation period. He references Matthew 25:31-46 and Joel 3:1-2.
The Judgment Seat of Christ (for the Church) takes place while the Judgment of Israel/Jews is taking place on earth (the trib). But the Sheep and Goat separation takes place after this, and does not involve us at all. We will have already been raptured (and rewarded) well-before then.
Larkin published these charts sometime around 1915. They are very good. This is just one of them:
http://www.preservedwords.com/images/lresurrect.gif
Same (or similar) one at Blueletterbible (but harder to see):
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/larkin/lark10.cfm
The Day of the Lord starts after the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is a day of darkness and no light. Amos says "woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for it will be a day of darkness". Now if the rapture was included in that, wouldn't it be contradictory to scripture to long for the rapture?
The Holy Spirit is never removed from the earth. He is one of the three in the trinity......He is omnipresent. When Paul says that He will be taken out of the way, he meant that he would not hinder lawlessness as He does right now. I honestly see nowhere in scripture that the HS actually works differently during this time. Salvation is still obtained b faith. The only difference is that they are not sealed with the HS as a promise for redemption.....because the Bride of Christ, those who had been sealed with the HS will have already been redeemed! It's more like the OT as far as faith is concerned.
Even still, that is not to say that the Holy Spirit ever leaves the earth.
Ok, so are you pre-trib or not?Sounds like you are not, however, you beat around the bush when asked to answer the question.
No one ever said it wasn't going to be tough being a Christian. Jesus even said to pick up your cross and to serve/follow Him. Jesus said there would be trials and tribulations. But NO WHERE. NO WHERE does it say in the Bible that the Church, the Bride, will suffer through THE Tribulation. The Great Tribulation.
And how can anyone miss that the Church is no where mentioned in Revelations after Chapter 4??? The Tribulation is not about the Bride. It is about Israel and the Judgement of the Nations.
How can anyone be wearing their Crowns in Heaven if the Rapture hasn't happened? You can't wear a crown if you don't have a new body!!! That HAS to mean that the Rapture has occurred, we received our NEW BODIES, the Bema Seat had happened and the Saints and Elders throwing these crowns at the feet of Jesus had already dined at the Bridal Supper and are awaiting the Great Tribulation to be over and to return WITH Jesus when He SETS HIS FEET ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.
The Deciples were not privy to what John saw through his visions of Jesus on Patmos. That was all NEW information. Hence the term REVELATION!!
Who does Jesus come back to earth with???? HIS SAINTS!!
How can you separate the Sheep and Goats if the Sheep are all taken with Him at the END of the Tribulation? YOU CAN'T!! The Bride is not the Sheep. The Sheep are the people who accepted Christ and survived to make it through the Tribulation. These Sheep will be the ones that populate the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Hey, some like to Tribulate. Not this gal. I'm going in the Rapture BEFORE the Tribulation. I look for His coming at any time now. That is our blessed hope!
Great post.
You ever going to answer my question as to whether or not you are Pre/Post Trib?
Excellent post Chicken!!!! And that's the best argument/explanation for pre- trib rapture that I've ever read or heard!!! Simple, short and to the point!
Celestial,
NO, WE ARE NOT to question every doctrine. The reason is because we derive our doctrine based on the interpretation of the scriptures, not the other way around. Where do you think our ideas came from....Margaret McDonald?Please do not misunderstand me, I do respect the rules of the forum, but we as Christians ARE to question every doctrine and if a teaching is not found in scripture, we are to question it. That is not wrong for me or others to do, as the scriptures declare:No, indeed not. We have already searched and searched and these are the interpretations we have come to. The question I have is, why do you come posting here if you do not hold to our doctrine? Are you here like a wolf in sheep's clothing, coming here to destroy the faith of some? To take away our blessed hope? If so, I respectfully ask that you stop posting here. It is evident by your posts that this is your intention, when you say things like:
but we as Christians ARE to question every docrtineThe tribulation of the Antichrist is NOT THE WRATH OF GODWhenever it says "THAT DAY" , "LAST DAY", "A DAY", "HIS DAY" or "THE DAY", it is not referring to the tribulation which is for 7 years.IT IS CLEARLY STATING THAT WE ARE NOT TO BE SPARED THIS TIME, BUT TO OPPOSE THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WITHSTAND AGAINST ACCEPTING HIM. THAT IS THE "EVIL DAY."This is strictly a Pre-Trib board and all these debates ever come to is a loggerhead causing division, which is why we have rule #15. You claim to follow the rules, but your posts are in direct conflict with them. We dont see it your way and never will, just as you dont see it our way and probably never will. In the words of the Joker, "It's like when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object". It is clear that you are passionate about this subject and that you love the Lord, but you're simply wasting your time here in these battles."ORGE" MEANS JUDGMENT AND IT IS THE JUDGMENT OF THE LORD, IT CANNOT AND DOES NOT, IN ANY INSTANCE REFER TO ANY OTHER TYPE OF WRATH OR ANGER BY ANY OTHER INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY.
Go ahead and live your life expecting to go through the worst time on earth. Plan accordingly, watch the world, buy guns, store food, etc. I'm just happy that none of that will matter because you will be pleasantly surprised on the day the Rapture happens, which is coming soon.
Even so (and pardon me for being harsh), please post your mid-trib/post-trib propaganda elsewhere.
JesusIsLord =
Regular Member
i agree! as i was reading this, i was thinking, i should memorize this...it is so simple and to the point and SPOT ON! nice job chicken!Excellent post Chicken!!!! And that's the best argument/explanation for pre- trib rapture that I've ever read or heard!!! Simple, short and to the point!
Recall that Jesus gave the Holy Spirit as a gift. The Holy Spirit was not here before. Also remember that God left the Temple and was not here for some time. So, I would think all three of them were in Heaven at that time. No one knew of the Holy Spirit before Jesus sent Him. And, while Jesus was alive, we couldn't have the Holy Spirit. He said so. He said that if He didn't leave, He couldn't send Him to us.
Frequently in the OT, the prophets were filled with the spirit. God also said that His spirit would not contend with man forever. Here are a few references to the Holy Spirit where we clearly see Him on earth from the beginning:
Genesis 6:3
Numbers 11:25-26
Numbers 27:18
1 Samuel 10:10
2 Kings 2:9-10
Micah 3:8
Haggai 2:5 (very strong case here)
Most often it was referred to as the "Spirit of the Lord" in the OT. There is but one Holy Spirit, so nothing changed from the OT to the NT except that the Holy Spirit would reside in the heart of every believer as a seal for the day of Redemption (Rapture). When the Holy Spirit broke out of the Temple, that was symbolic that the new Covenant had come. He no longer resided in the Temple in a visible form (smoke), but came out and resided in men. He was always in all the heavens, earth and universe, but His physical presence was in the Temple.....His spiritual presence is everywhere. By Jesus saying that if he did not go, he could not send the Spirit, He meant that the Holy Spirit could not reside in us as a Seal.
God is omnipresent in time and space. The Holy Spirit is God, right? Jesus is God, right? God the Father is God, right? Therefore if "God" is omnipresent, that applies to the Holy Spirit as well. To say otherwise would be to decrease the power and deity of the Trinity.
The whole point of the Holy Spirit is so that He can be a medium between us and the Father. If the Holy Spirit was not on earth, how would anyone in history have heard what the Father wanted to say?
Regular Member
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.The Holy Spirit was indeed operating on earth before He permanently indwelt believers at Pentecost.
In Luke 2:25-32, where Joseph and Mary bring the baby Jesus to the temple, Simeon was given a message "by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God..." Note verse 25 which says, of Simeon, "and the Holy Ghost was upon him."
However, Simeon was not "sealed" with the Holy Spirit, for that did not happen to believers before Pentecost. Still, the Holy Spirit was operating... such as with Simeon.
Did Jesus not say as I have claimed? The Holy Spirit was not here as He is now. It wasn't the same. Only a few received the power of the Holy Spirit. Just like God didn't speak with everyone, only a few people. I believe the Holy Spirit will act in a totally different way. The Holy Spirit will not be here convicting people to be saved. It will be very difficult for people to be saved.
I wonder if any Gentiles will be saved since God's attention is going to Israel. If they won't accept Him now, why would they then? They have scoffed in His face now. They will then. At what point does it become blasphemy?
Regular Member
I'm not 100% sure of this, for some people point out that Revelation 7:9 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...", and they say it is referring to folks who are saved during the trib, for a few verses later, in Revelation 7:13-14, it says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
This passage is in the same chapter as the sealing of the 144,000.
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