Soul Sleep Question (does the soul sleep or not while waiting for the Rapture)

[michael2012]

Okay this verse confuses me a little...Not only does it suggest (to me) that the people dead under the sea were "still there", but also there is Hades, or a waiting room for people until Judgement...

Revelation 20:13 (New International Version)

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Also THIS ONE:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)

The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

If the dead are already in Heaven or Hell, than why meet up?

[Hootmon]

If the dead are already in Heaven or Hell, than why meet up?

Their spirits need to 'meet up' with their physical bodies. They are separated by physical death.

[Lucinda]

Okay this verse confuses me a little...Not only does it suggest (to me) that the people dead under the sea were "still there", but also there is Hades, or a waiting room for people until Judgement...

Revelation 20:13 (New International Version)

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Also THIS ONE:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)

The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

If the dead are already in Heaven or Hell, than why meet up?

Revelation 20:13 This is the "Great White Throne Judgement" now I have come to understand since death and hell deliver up the dead,this judgment is for those who don't take part in the first resurrection(Rapture)

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.The second death has no power over them,but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

If you continue on in chapter 20 of Revelation you will find that there is going to be a 1000 year reign and after the 1000 year reign comes the great white throne judgment.
So if you believe that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is the Catching Away then you also know that in
1 Thess 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
"Asleep in Christ" are the one's who have physically died and their spirit has return to God
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dusts returns to the ground it came from,and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
So we go back and read in
1 Thess 4:14-17 These scriptures tell us that when the catching away occurs,Jesus is bringing all the souls that are with him back and this is when they will receive their resurrected,immortal,perfect body and those who are alive at his coming will be changed in the twinkling of an eye
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a flash,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trumpet.For the trumpet will sound,the dead will be raised imperishable,and we will be changed.
At this point we will all have a glorified body and that is when we will all meet in the air to be with the Lord forever

[HeIsEnough]

Okay this verse confuses me a little...Not only does it suggest (to me) that the people dead under the sea were "still there", but also there is Hades, or a waiting room for people until Judgement...

If the dead are already in Heaven or Hell, than why meet up?

As others related, we meet in the air, not in heaven and not on the earth.

Verses like those you posted prove little directly, and may lead to questions, but others speak very straightforward on the subject, and the verses you questioned need seen in light of ones like these:

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

It is important to take the whole of the bible in regards to a subject, it helps greatly to avoid one or two verse doctrines. There are lots of other verses, but these are pretty clear. Those who've gone to the other side, are as asleep to us, we hear them no more. The references to "asleep" in scripture, are from and for our perspective.

[bookworm1711]

Those who believe and teach the doctrine of "soul sleep" often hold to a mistaken theology called theological materialism. Commonly recognized groups that teach this are the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. No doubt other individuals and groups not associated with these two also sometimes believe this doctrine.

I have spent many hours the past few weeks reviewing a DVD series by speaker Brian McMahon titled "Revelation Promises Hope," and just finished hour six, "God's Love Revealed in Hell-Fire." A Christian couple I've known for 30 years or more have fairly recently gotten caught up in this view. I hope, with the Lord's help and guidance, to be able to direct them to a more accurate study of the Bible.

The gifted speaker/presenter on the DVDs makes a persuasive case for his viewpoint UNLESS one already has a very sound grasp of the teaching of Scripture.

The Bible cautions us not to be gullible. After watching Mr. McMahon's presentations, I consulted my King James Version Bible at Proverbs 18:17,

Pro 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

Modern English versions are even clearer. The New Living Translation expresses it by saying "Any story sounds true until someone sets the record straight" (Proverbs 18:17, 1996 edition). Even more striking is the rendering of the 2004 edition of the New Living Translation, "The first to speak in court sounds right--until the cross-examination begins."

Those who hold to a mistaken viewpoint often have a very elaborate defense prepared to sustain that viewpoint. They make appeal to many texts of Scripture.

Those who have a mistaken view, even sincerely mistaken view, of what the Bible teaches have failed to take into account all that the Bible teaches on that issue, doctrine, or subject.

I noticed, for example, that Mr. McMahon's extensive discussion of Bible prophecy utterly failed to make any mention at all of the Abrahamic and the Davidic Covenants as these relate to Bible prophecy. That is a huge omission, and utterly invalidates his whole scheme of understanding Bible prophecy.

As for "soul sleep," the Bible never speaks of the sleep of a spirit or soul. Only physical bodies are spoken of as "sleeping." Materialists in theology do not believe in the conscious existence of the soul after the death of the body.

The clearest answer to this mistaken view that I know about is what Jesus himself said in Matthew 10:28,

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus said that

(1) The body can be killed
(2) The soul cannot be killed

I therefore conclude that the body is not the soul, nor the soul the body or some part of it. Materialists in theology claim that the soul is a reference to your physical being (which they support by making reference to the Hebrew usage of the word "soul" in some passages of the Old Testament, though a complete study of all the references would refute their view), your body, which ceases to exist upon the death of the body. Jesus argued otherwise.

Jesus said that God is to be feared, because God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Carefully note that the Greek word underlying our English word "destroy" is never used to signify annihilation of a person when speaking of the condition or state of a person after death, either in the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures. Perhaps the broadest correct generalized meaning of this Greek word is to render unfit for its original purpose. Matthew 10:28 does not teach that God either can or will kill the soul. If that were what is meant, different words would have been used in the Greek to indicate this.

Notice also that in this passage "hell" is not merely the grave. If hell means "grave" here, what is there to fear, for everyone's body upon physical death experiences dissolution in the grave. This is not the threat Jesus told us to fear.

Note also that both soul and body are mentioned as being "in hell." This proves they are separate entities or objects, not the same.

In discussing this topic on the Internet, I've shown materialists in theology that they are actually taking the side of the Sadducees, which Jesus fully refuted in Mark 12:18-27 and parallel passages in Matthew and Luke. I challenge them: "Why do you insist upon holding to the viewpoint of the enemies of Jesus, enemies Jesus condemned for 'not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God' (Mark 12:24)?"

Lucinda has provided a valuable example of backing away from what one is being taught, and going straight to the Bible and studying it to find out what the correct view truly is.

[Lucinda]

Thank you BookWorm for the wonderful information.When I started my search for the truth I was surprised to learn that the denominations you mentioned are the top teachers on this doctrine.How I came to this belief could only been taught to me as a child and I'm from neither denominations you mentioned.
I am so thankful for the word of God and that I was able to go and search the truth out.I am so pleased with finding out the truth that I want to share this finding with other brothers and sisters who believe that the soul sleeps.They need to know that it's a false teaching!

[Lvanett]

Lucinda, I'm glad you have this resolved. I had a Sunday School teacher in my former church who believed and taught soul sleep. I couldn't sit under his teaching because this was just one of several things that I found wrong in his teaching and the Pastor had the attitude that it was no big deal. I'll never understand why a Pastor thinks it's no big deal when the SS teachers are teaching false doctrines.

Jadeeyes, I'm going thru the same thing right now with a sister in Christ. She goes to bible studies by a man who believes in Soul Sleep, keeping the Sabbath, etc. and all the other SDA doctrines *but* doesn't call himself an SDA nor thinks of himself that way. I tried to warn her about him and she just said "just because a teacher has one or two bad teachings doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to them." Then again, she watches Benny Hinn, Paula White and other apostates and is now a big fan of Michael Rood. Needless to say, I don't plan on fellowshipping with her anymore...

PS - Lucinda, I'm glad you are taking a stand and letting others know of the false doctrine that is "Soul Sleep." You go girl!

[HeIsEnough]

PS - Lucinda, I'm glad you are taking a stand and letting others know of the false doctrine that is "Soul Sleep." You go girl!

[Tres Wright]

That's right!
But still there are folks who will argue that..
The rich man and Lazarus was only a parable(I believe it was a real story)

Instead of letting Scripture speak to them, too many people want to speak to Scripture. Then they have to bend, twist and alter Scriptural meaning to make their false views fit. Sometimes it only takes a little tapping to bend things while other times it takes a sledgehammer, but it all leads down the same road of leading themselves and others astray. It's important to always be mindful of the Golden Rule of Interpretation:

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense;
therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning
unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages
and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.

[Fable]

I've always thought our souls went to be with the Lord immediately upon death. I heard one of the old time preachers on a local radio show talking about it once. I hope that is the case.

[LightOfMyLife]

I believe the scriptures when it says "Absent from the body, present with the Lord, but was wondering if there were other scriptures that tell us what happens. Today one of my co-worker's Grandmother died in the night and she was saying that she woke up at almost exactly the time her Grandmother died. Another co-worker standing nearby who says she is Christian was telling her "Maybe it was your Grandma's Spirit" and I then respectfully told her that I do not think that is biblical and will find out for sure. Her reply was "Well how do we know what happens to a spirit/soul immediately after they die. I think there must be more in scriptures that tell us and I just do not believe we float around for awhile going here or there before we reach whatever destination. Please help me on this one as I want to be Biblically correct.

I agree candlelight with your bible based scriptures. The Bible always has the truth anything else is people coming up with worldly ideas. Also, the unbelievers story is found in Luke 16:19-31 about the rich man in torment. I believe our spirit goes to heaven for the believers & hell for those who are not saved.

[Morning Star]

Straight to Heaven Praise the Lord.

[watching4Him]

I, was blessed to be with both of my parents when they died, both times I felt the presence of the Lord in the room. I, know that they are in heaven waiting for their children & two granddaughters. The only one that has not come to the Lord is my oldest brother, so each day & night I pray that he will come to the Lord.

[Silvercord]

Straight to Heaven Praise the Lord.

Completely agree. I was with my Dad when he died. I held his hand, told him to go and say "hi" to my aunt in heaven, and waved as he left the body. I hope he looked down long enough to see me waving. I expect to see that wave returned when my times comes.

[Amber Lynne]

Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

Edited to add.....if you don't know the Lord, you are NOT present with the Lord, but in Hades awaiting judgement.

[Wally]

Ushered up by angels, rising slowly on a shaft of light, temporarly stuck here to help solve a murder - your own.....woops movie plot snuck in there.....

It would be out of God's character for the Lover of our souls to wait even one second from receiving us into His arms.

I like the phrase; May you be in heaven an half hour before the devil knows you're dead.

[Lucinda]

At physical death the believer enters "immediately" into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.
2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are of good courage, I say, and prefer to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

There is no intermediate state. The Bible teaches us there is no soul sleep, no purgatory, but instant entrance into God's presence and home. So, heaven is our eternal home. Our Lord is there. Our friends and loved ones in Christ are there. There is no sin nor sinful nature there to cause unhappiness.

I believe that when a person dies the spirit of the saved is carried home by the angels.That is what I believe.If the spirit of those who died were able to say,be as a ghost then the spirit of one who died would tell those they love goodbye and we all have loved ones who have went on to be with the Lord and we all know that if it were possible the spirit would in fact had said their goodbyes but did not.So by this we know the spirit of a child of God goes straight home to the Father.Strange way of putting it into perspective,however it is one way to know for certain that at death the spirit of man goes straight back to God who gave it...
Ecclesiastes 12
1 Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come
and the years approach when you will say,
"I find no pleasure in them"-

2 before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;

3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few,
and those looking through the windows grow dim;

4 when the doors to the street are closed
and the sound of grinding fades;
when men rise up at the sound of birds,
but all their songs grow faint;

5 when men are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets;
when the almond tree blossoms
and the grasshopper drags himself along
and desire no longer is stirred.
Then man goes to his eternal home
and mourners go about the streets.

6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
or the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
or the wheel broken at the well,

7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

[watching4Him]

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: KJV

hope this helps

[LightOfMyLife]

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. NKJV

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: KJV

hope this helps

I agree besides absent from the body present with The Lord. Hebrews 9:27 is another that shows the moment we die we go to 1 of 2 places. Candlelight, these scriptures are good enough for all the proof you need. God's word is the only truth we need. Also, I will relate this scenario for you. There is a local pastor in Mo that does a Q & A program where people can call in and ask questions to get scriptural answers. This person told the pastor after their dead relative had died that they saw this person. The pastor's reply was this the devil wants you to believe that. He basically told this person that it was a demonic spirit trying to make this person believe it was their dead relative.

[Anddra]

The Parousia of the Lord
March 19, 2010 — Mike Ratliff

For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you? For you are our glory and joy. (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 ESV)

I have been dealing with some Universalist “teachings” over the last few days hence the article on The Doctrine of Hell. In my biblical research in order to answer the claims of Universalists, I have found that much of their “doctrine” comes from a mishandling of Sacred Scripture, especially those passages dealing with the state of the dead in Christ and who makes up those who meet the Lord in the air at his παρουσια or parousia or arrival or coming or presence. In this post we will look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and attempt to unpack Paul’s statement about our Lord’s παρουσια.

What we must never forget my brethren, Christianity is simply another religion if we ignore our Lord’s παρουσια, It is vital to our doctrines. It is vital to the meaning and purpose of the Gospel. This is why any form of Christian Liberalism attacks both the Doctrine of Hell and the Doctrine of the παρουσια of Christ. This should make it evident of the power behind these attacks. He is both a liar and a murderer. Therefore, let us open God’s Word and dig into it to feed, learn the truth, and be encouraged in the Lord.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. (1 Thessalonians 4:13 ESV)

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