View Poll Results: Do you believe in Eternal Security?

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    317 81.70%
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Thread: Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

  1. #41
    Caretaker Guest

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    We who believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit, will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
    unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

    John 6:39
    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


    John 10:
    27
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29
    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


    Philippians 1:
    6
    Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


    I Peter 1:3-5;
    3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4
    To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    5
    Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    I John 2:19;
    19
    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    Romans 11:29.
    29
    For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.





    Being good enough?being free from bad habits and bad behavior, earning enough "points" on the ledger of good behavior?is not what brings about a new spiritual birth in a person. Salvation is solely a matter of believing in Jesus. The repentance and change of behavior come later as the Holy Spirit prompts it, and also as Holy Spirit helps a person to accomplish it! It is vitally important for you at this point to come to this understanding: Nothing you do apart from believing in Jesus Christ causes you to be saved. When you believe, the Spirit enters into you and causes your old sin nature to be transformed into a new nature that is in the likeness of God. The transformation of your spirit is a sovereign work of God; you cannot do it on your own, achieve it through your will or behavior, force it to happen by any other means than believing.

    If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.

    On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature.

    2 Cor. 1:
    21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
    22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
    23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
    24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

    2 Cor. 5:
    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    Eph. 1:
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


    Earnest:

    Strong's Number: 728 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    ajrrabwvn of Hebrew origin (06162)

    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

    Arrhabon 1:475,80
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    ar-hrab-ohn'
    Noun Masculine
    Definition
    1. an earnest
    a. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
    John Gills exposition of 2 Cor. 1:22

    John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

    2 Corinthians 1:22

    Who hath also sealed us?

    "Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see (John 3:33) (1 Corinthians 9:3) (Jeremiah 33:10) in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see (Ephesians 1:13) .

    "Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:
    and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:
    by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word (arrabwn) , here used, and in (2 Corinthians 5:5) (Ephesians 1:14) is the Hebrew word (Nwbre) , and comes from (bre) , which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see (Genesis 38:17,18,20) , and in Jewish writings F4; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++

    The Believer has the absolute irrevocable guarantee from God of eternal redemption through the very indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. It is our seal that we ARE His for eternity.

    Surety:

    2 a : a formal engagement (as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE b : a basis of confidence or security

    Main Entry: 3earnest
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabOn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew 'ErAbhOn pledge
    1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
    2 : a token of what is to come : PLEDGE

    It is within the heart of the Believer that the Holy Spirit produces spiritual fruit, and this fruit is evidence of the sealing of the Believer which has taken place.

    A fruit of the Spirit is faith, and it is this faith by which we are saved.

    Ephesians 2:
    8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Galations 5:
    22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


    Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, those who are saved, our Lord has declared that NONE can pluck them out of the Father's Hand. Those who preach a salvation dependent upon our matinance deny the power of God to Draw us, Seal us, Stablish us, to Maintain us.

    1 John 2:
    19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


    www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/b...esseda.htm

    Bless?d assurance, Jesus is mine!
    O what a foretaste of glory divine!
    Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
    Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

    Refrain

    This is my story, this is my song,
    Praising my Savior, all the day long;
    This is my story, this is my song,
    Praising my Savior, all the day long.

    Perfect submission, perfect delight,
    Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
    Angels descending bring from above
    Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

    Refrain

    Perfect submission, all is at rest
    I in my Savior am happy and blest,
    Watching and waiting, looking above,
    Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.

    Refrain


    What Blessed Assurance we have from our glorious Lord!!

  2. #42
    FunMudder Guest

    Default

    I have no doubt that my sins are forgiven, past, current and future. Nothing can seperate me from Gods hand....but myself. And I'm not talking about daily sins, I'm talking about blasphemy.

    My only reservation in the OSAS theology is in those that know the truth and then reject their salvation. The Holy Spirit within pricks your heart when you sin, so you know when you are doing wrong. You have a choice to stop, or continue. When you continue, and continue and just keep on doing your own will over the Lords, your heart becomes hardened. Even then, I would still be saved in eternity.
    But that moment of crossing the line into 'there is no God' and proudly boasting against Christ, that is the line of cutting myself off from the vine.

    Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

    Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

    In Luke 12:10 it talks about blaspeming against the Holy Spirit. Well if the Holy Spirit is in you, pricking at your heart, and you willfully deny it's authority, turning aside abd rejecting It whole heartedly, then that is blasphemy. You had the knowledge within you and denied it. You had the Holy Spirit inside you, and denied it. You had to be on the Lords vine to recieve it, so yes, I do believe you can reject it. Otherwise, why would there be ANY withered branches on Jesus's vine for the Father to need to dress it?
    You cannot earn your way to salvation anymore than you personally can create the universe. You can accept the gift of salvation, and you can also reject it by rejecting the Lords call upon your heart.

    Again, I'm not talking about the little stuff (sometimes big) we do day to day. I'm talking about hardening your heart against the Lords call upon your life to the point you actually do reject Him completely.
    Last edited by FunMudder; April 30th, 2007 at 09:45 AM. Reason: typo

  3. #43
    Caretaker Guest

    Post

    1 John 2:
    19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, those who are saved, our Lord has declared that NONE can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.

  4. #44
    LaMontre Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mistertwisty View Post
    Interesting, I am surprised (and somewhat ambarrassed ) that we missed this in the observation of this verse.
    Nothing to be embarrased or surprised about. It is actually a fairly "unique" perspective. One which many will disagree with.

  5. #45
    Emily Ruth Guest

    Default

    Our eternal salvation is based on unconditional love which is described in 1 Cor 13. Unconditional love means there is nothing either party can do, behaviorally, to end the love. Once we become a child of God we have passed from judgment. So, none of our actions or deeds are considered towards our eternal acceptance into heaven - only towards our rewards or lack of

    1 Cor 3 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
    I honestly believe that the situation with people who think they have 'fallen away' were never really saved to begin with. I know that from my own experience. Once I was truly born again - there is no way that I would give up this peace and joy and unexplainable love that I have now for anything this world has to offer - it just is not reasonable.

    Also- how in the world would one (or even why) 'evict' the Holy Spirit?
    That is absurd. Do you tell the Holy Spirit to go away because you want to go back to the sinful ways? I don't think so. Once a person knows the Lord as a born again Christian there is no desire to go back to the ways of the world. I think there are a lot of people who have been deceived by the wisdom of this world into thinking they were saved - that is a huge victory for the enemy.

    John Macarthur gave a great explanation of Hebrews 6

    4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    He said that what this is referring to is if someone has witnessed the Holy Spirit in the full light of truth and then they reject it - how in the world will they ever be saved? If they reject it when it is shown to them in the best and clearest way by God Himself and they reject it - there is no hope. This would be the unforgivable sin - when a person rejects the gospel and they they die - there is no second chance on the other side of this life.


    And finally, if our salvation depended in any way on us - then when we got to heaven we can thank Jesus then be prideful in adding that we 'kept' ourselves saved. And we all know how much God loves pride
    Last edited by Emily Ruth; April 30th, 2007 at 11:52 AM. Reason: grammatical correction

  6. #46
    mark3274 Guest

    Default

    listen this is always brought up and I think along with a whole bunch of pastors that the issue is were they ever saved to begin with..
    Do you really think Jesus would play yo yo with a life hey your saved oops you sinned your going to hell? please.
    Lets see Jon corson, mike macintosh, Ray Viola, Samme palermo, Chuck smith, and about 1600 other calvary chapel and Oasis word churches would all say that the issue is were they ever saved and Harvest bible chapels also... so DO you really think Jesus is going to mislead over 1600 pastors? I do not.

  7. #47
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    Most of us have been been over and over the versus regarding the permancy of salvation. I'm going to mention a couple of things that have never been mentioned to my knowledge in regards to salvation.

    1. When we are saved we are adoped as children of G-d. As children of G-d we inherit a share of Jesus' birthright, treasure, and eternal life. According to Jewish law even a natural child had to be adopted in order to inherit. Once adopted, an adopted child can never, under any circumstance, be disinherited. If we can loose our salvation, there will be non-saved people living on the New Earth and ruling with Christ, living forever.

    B. In the ancient middle east, everyone born in a city had their name written in the city's book of life, a record of the births in that city. G-d records the name of everyone ever born in THE BOOK OF LIFE. A person who committed serious crime was blotted out of the city's book of life, as if they'd never been born. When we commit a serious crime against G-d (sin) our names are blotted out of THE BOOK OF LIFE.
    When we are "born again" our names are written in THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE.
    If our names could be blotted out of that book, it implies that G-d made a mistake. If your name is there, it is always there.

    Slim

  8. #48
    Emily Ruth Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PickensSlim View Post
    Most of us have been been over and over the versus regarding the permancy of salvation. I'm going to mention a couple of things that have never been mentioned to my knowledge in regards to salvation.

    1. When we are saved we are adoped as children of G-d. As children of G-d we inherit a share of Jesus' birthright, treasure, and eternal life. According to Jewish law even a natural child had to be adopted in order to inherit. Once adopted, an adopted child can never, under any circumstance, be disinherited. If we can loose our salvation, there will be non-saved people living on the New Earth and ruling with Christ, living forever.

    B. In the ancient middle east, everyone born in a city had their name written in the city's book of life, a record of the births in that city. G-d records the name of everyone ever born in THE BOOK OF LIFE. A person who committed serious crime was blotted out of the city's book of life, as if they'd never been born. When we commit a serious crime against G-d (sin) our names are blotted out of THE BOOK OF LIFE.
    When we are "born again" our names are written in THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE.
    If our names could be blotted out of that book, it implies that G-d made a mistake. If your name is there, it is always there.

    Slim

    This is very interesting - thank you. The only concern I have is your reference 'serious crime against God'
    All sin is serious - there are no variances. Even our good works - without the blood of Christ - are filthy rags.

  9. #49
    Surrender Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PickensSlim View Post
    Most of us have been been over and over the versus regarding the permancy of salvation. I'm going to mention a couple of things that have never been mentioned to my knowledge in regards to salvation.

    1. When we are saved we are adoped as children of G-d. As children of G-d we inherit a share of Jesus' birthright, treasure, and eternal life. According to Jewish law even a natural child had to be adopted in order to inherit. Once adopted, an adopted child can never, under any circumstance, be disinherited. If we can loose our salvation, there will be non-saved people living on the New Earth and ruling with Christ, living forever.

    B. In the ancient middle east, everyone born in a city had their name written in the city's book of life, a record of the births in that city. G-d records the name of everyone ever born in THE BOOK OF LIFE. A person who committed serious crime was blotted out of the city's book of life, as if they'd never been born. When we commit a serious crime against G-d (sin) our names are blotted out of THE BOOK OF LIFE.
    When we are "born again" our names are written in THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE.
    If our names could be blotted out of that book, it implies that G-d made a mistake. If your name is there, it is always there.

    Slim
    That is very interesting.

    If our names are blotted out of the Book of Life when we sin, every person born will be blotted out of the Book of Life, correct?

    At the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20), where unbelievers are judged, the Book of Life will be empty?

    For that matter, won't it mean that at the Bema Seat (where believers are judged), the Book of Life will be empty?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Ruth View Post
    This is very interesting - thank you. The only concern I have is your reference 'serious crime against God'
    All sin is serious - there are no variances. Even our good works - without the blood of Christ - are filthy rags.


    Any sin is a serious crime. I was trying to be .... a little light hearted?

    Slim

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrender View Post
    That is very interesting.

    If our names are blotted out of the Book of Life when we sin, every person born will be blotted out of the Book of Life, correct?

    At the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20), where unbelievers are judged, the Book of Life will be empty?

    For that matter, won't it mean that at the Bema Seat (where believers are judged), the Book of Life will be empty?


    At the Great White throne, none will be saved.
    I don't know if the book will be empty. There's a verse that I can't find at the moment where G-d sends Isreal out to a destroy a nation that was sacrificing children "Whom I have declared innocent" I'm still trying to learn e-sword.
    If, as many maintain and that I believe, there's an certain age after which sin gets one's name blotted out. Up until then......



    The LAMB'S BOOK of LIFE is used at the Beama seat if I'm not mistaken.

    Slim

  12. #52
    Emily Ruth Guest

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    Slim -might I suggest you use http://www.biblegateway.com to search by keyword for your scriptures.

    And I believe the age you are looking for is 12 - which is the age of accountability.

    And the reason I was concerned about your statement about 'serious' crime is that in some 'religions' they do call some sins 'mortal' and some just minor sins and they 'work off' their penance for these various crimes.

    So -wanted to make sure that you didn't have that thinking going on there.

  13. #53
    psalm84 Guest

    Default What if more people are saved than 'we' think?

    Here's an interesting thought; it's sort of my personal idea about salvation. I hope I can explain this well without being accused of heresy. What if many more people are saved than we think? What if simply believing that Jesus was who He claimed to be, rose from the dead, and is going to return are all that is required to be saved?

    What more is there? Salvation is a gift, given to men by God when they believe His testimony about His Son. How else could the statement spoken by the Lord "and the gates of hell shall not prevail", be true if the Gospel of our salvation isn't simply believing Jesus is the Son of God and the events told in the Gospels(these events, being His death and resurrectiion) occured?

    The popes and the catholic clergy held the truth in unrightiosness for over one thousand years; yet, there must have been people born again during that time. I believe they were saved, because they simply believed in the first advent, death and resurrection of Christ; no matter how much their minds were bogged down with catholic dilution. Do I sound like I am opening a way for heresy? I am trying to make the point that, salvation comes to all who truly believe in Christ. How else can they believe, except by the Holy Spirit?

    I go to an independent fundemental baptist church, where we know we're saved; because the Gospel is preached very clearly. But the Lord couldn't have died for only a few million fortunate souls in the 1st, 2nd and 15th-21st centuries: those who had a clear accurate version of the Word of God and the Gospel so clearly preached. No, I believe that "He that believeth on Him is not condemned"(John3:18)

    Your thoughts and critisims are appreciated,

    Mark

  14. #54
    Donncha Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Ruth View Post
    Slim -might I suggest you use http://www.biblegateway.com to search by keyword for your scriptures.

    And I believe the age you are looking for is 12 - which is the age of accountability.
    What part of the Bible teaches this?


    And the reason I was concerned about your statement about 'serious' crime is that in some 'religions' they do call some sins 'mortal' and some just minor sins and they 'work off' their penance for these various crimes.
    The term "mortal sin" is based on Sacred Scripture.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalm84 View Post
    Here's an interesting thought; it's sort of my personal idea about salvation. I hope I can explain this well without being accused of heresy. What if many more people are saved than we think? What if simply believing that Jesus was who He claimed to be, rose from the dead, and is going to return are all that is required to be saved?

    What more is there? Salvation is a gift, given to men by God when they believe His testimony about His Son. How else could the statement spoken by the Lord "and the gates of hell shall not prevail", be true if the Gospel of our salvation isn't simply believing Jesus is the Son of God and the events told in the Gospels(these events, being His death and resurrectiion) occured?

    The popes and the catholic clergy held the truth in unrightiosness for over one thousand years; yet, there must have been people born again during that time. I believe they were saved, because they simply believed in the first advent, death and resurrection of Christ; no matter how much their minds were bogged down with catholic dilution. Do I sound like I am opening a way for heresy? I am trying to make the point that, salvation comes to all who truly believe in Christ. How else can they believe, except by the Holy Spirit?

    I go to an independent fundemental baptist church, where we know we're saved; because the Gospel is preached very clearly. But the Lord couldn't have died for only a few million fortunate souls in the 1st, 2nd and 15th-21st centuries: those who had a clear accurate version of the Word of God and the Gospel so clearly preached. No, I believe that "He that believeth on Him is not condemned"(John3:18)

    Your thoughts and critisims are appreciated,

    Mark
    I agree with you. I believe salvation comes exclusively through faith in Jesus Christ - (faith and belief, in our hearts, that He is our savior, died for our sins, and was resurrected and sits on the right hand of the Father). However, scripture tells us that this belief is not possible without the assistance of the Holy Spirit (unless we are born again), and this is an act of grace from God (we do not control the Holy Spirit). I do not know how many are or will be saved. I hope it is millions and millions. We could have a long debate about what causes the Holy Spirit to act (forknowledge by God of those who would choose to accept Him - or pure grace of God based upon a plan we do not fully understand).

    When we are saved through faith - works will follow - we become new creatures in Christ and yearn to understand God's Word and follow Jesus' example. This will be evidenced, in part, by our love of one another, as disciples of Christ. Consquently, those who do not evidence this behavior are probably not "saved" (but not because salvation is based on works - but because works will follow from true faith). I do not believe that sacraments play any role in salvation - although there are two sacraments (communion and water baptism) which are scriptural and which we should yearn for as symbols of our faith in the Lord. The Catholic Church has a completely different perspective on this - based largely on tradition, rather than on scripture.


    Regards,
    Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

  16. #56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by psalm84 View Post
    The popes and the catholic clergy held the truth in unrightiosness for over one thousand years; yet, there must have been people born again during that time. I believe they were saved, because they simply believed in the first advent, death and resurrection of Christ; no matter how much their minds were bogged down with catholic dilution. Do I sound like I am opening a way for heresy? I am trying to make the point that, salvation comes to all who truly believe in Christ. How else can they believe, except by the Holy Spirit?

    I go to an independent fundemental baptist church, where we know we're saved; because the Gospel is preached very clearly. But the Lord couldn't have died for only a few million fortunate souls in the 1st, 2nd and 15th-21st centuries: those who had a clear accurate version of the Word of God and the Gospel so clearly preached. No, I believe that "He that believeth on Him is not condemned"(John3:18)

    Your thoughts and critisims are appreciated,

    Mark
    I ran across a quote the other day that I think is appropriate here:

    People have been getting saved right on up through the ages, quietly, regardless of all the maneuverings of the churches.

    Faith alone.

  17. #57
    AnotherOldGuy Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by psalm84
    What if many more people are saved than we think?
    Sadly, I don't think so. I think it will be far fewer than we think.



    What if simply believing that Jesus was who He claimed to be, rose from the dead, and is going to return are all that is required to be saved?
    That is all that is required - with a caveat. If we use the more accurate meaning of the greek word that is translated 'believe'.


    yet, there must have been people born again during that time.
    Of course there were.


    I am trying to make the point that, salvation comes to all who truly believe in Christ.
    There's that word again.


    But the Lord couldn't have died for only a few million fortunate souls in the 1st, 2nd and 15th-21st centuries: those who had a clear accurate version of the Word of God and the Gospel so clearly preached.
    I might disagree with you about clarity and accuracy over the last 6 centuries.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robbinson
    I believe salvation comes exclusively through faith in Jesus Christ - (faith and belief, in our hearts, that He is our savior, died for our sins, and was resurrected and sits on the right hand of the Father).
    You left the THE one word that is needed. But a lot of people will say the same thing as you. I think that from a scriptural standpoint, if someone quotes that response to Jesus, He will say "Depart from me".



    faith in the Lord
    BINGO! (with caveats)

  18. #58
    scrappergirl Guest

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    What if simply believing that Jesus was who He claimed to be, rose from the dead, and is going to return are all that is required to be saved?
    even the demons BELIEVE. Since they were there when it all happened...
    Yes all it takes is faith, but faith without works is dead. what good is a dead faith?

    in any case, if i am wrong, then Praise God for His patience with us, and i'll be happy to see an even bigger banquet in heaven.

  19. #59
    Larry Guest

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    I believe there will be MANY less people in Heaven than we think.

    Repent, meaning turn from your sins, and TRUST, in what Jesus did on the cross to pay your sin debt.

    We all owe a debt we can't pay. Sin has condemned us, so we need a substitute, someone willing and worthy to pay that debt. Jesus took our place, so our debt IS paid, if we trust in what he did.

    Merely believing in Jesus will not save anyone. Also, if you don't 'turn' from your sins, it shows Jesus you're not serious, just paying lip service.

    If you cheated on your wife or husband, and after every time you did it, you just said you were sorry and asked for forgiveness, but the next week turned right around and did it again, do you think you would/should receive forgiveness?

    The problem with the modern gospel, meaning to 'just say the prayer and you're saved' is not Biblical. Nowhere does it say you must 'accept' Jesus as your savior, actually it is him that must accept you.

    There MUST be true repentance, (turning from sin) and then trust in Jesus, believing he did what he said he did.

    Kirk explains it way better than me.

    http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml

    Larry

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    440

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    An old friend who used to post under the name "LoneWolf" used to say that you would never again fall into error and believe you could lose your salvation ... if you truly understood what saved you in the first place.

    He was correct. When one truly understands the process and the scriptural explanation of "why" and not only what appears to us mere mortals of "how"... it is quite an eye opener.

    If course it is doctrine and doctrine doesn't actually contribute to one's salvation so it isn't "necessary" to have all figured out. But it is certainly comforting.

    What is amazing is so few have given it prayerful thought but are just stuck parroting the presupposition they were brought up in.

    But when you come to think of it ... scriptural illumination too comes from that same Holy Spirit who is so intimately involved in Salvation.

    So I guess He has His reasons why so few seem to have that part figured in this the last part of this great drama ... the 21st century.

    .

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