Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[ncbelle]

All of them, or course. However, aren't we required to be repentant? We need to recognize our sin for what it is, and turn from it, and seek forgiveness, not just say well, I'm saved, so I can continue to live my life of sin as I did before... Why does this verse give certain examples of types of people that won't inherit the kingdom of God, if being saved makes these sins not matter? Why not just say that those who aren't saved won't inherit the Kingdom?

[futurehope]

This is my view. In the 1 Corinthian quote, when the Lord is referring to fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, I think he is using those labels to describe unsaved people only. Saved people sin also, but they are not referred to in the above terms, because the righteousness of the Lord sanctifies them. Because Paul then says "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

That says to me that once you are saved, you can still sin (and you will), but you are being sanctified by the blood of Christ, and the labels no longer define who you are. Christ's redeeming blood now defines you as "a sinner saved by grace". So, for example, you still may lie, but the label "lier" does not define who you are (in Christ). You may still be caught in adultery, but the label "adultress" does not define who you are (in Christ).

So, following my logic, if you are smack dab in the middle of sinning when you pass on to eternity, the sin you are in the middle of is not your true identity. Christ and his sanctification have made you into a new creation. You were engaging in sin, but as a saved Christian you were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Sin does not permanently define who you are. Your new identity is in Christ.

Someone, correct me if I am wrong here.

[ncbelle]

Thank you, futurehope. That makes sense, I suppose. It does seem to me that since it says "and such WERE some of you" that it's implying these are habitual sins that the unsaved commit, before they are saved. However, what if the saved person is commiting these offenses? What if they refuse to even recognize it as being wrong? What is your take on homosexuals? Can they continue to live the gay lifestyle and be saved?

[Aussie Micha]

What is your take on homosexuals? Can they continue to live the gay lifestyle and be saved?

No, as they aren't picking up the cross daily and following Him (Jesus). They are doing their own will, and ignoring God's word totally!
It goes against God on so many different levels too- mocks creation etc...

You can't be a 'Gay Christian', but you can be a Christian who struggles with their former Gay lifestyle, and the on going temptations.
Hence, they might slip up once or twice etc... but if there's no remorse, or repentants of it, then it would show that they aren't saved.
The Holy Spirit would make one feel awful, as the conviction of that sin would make you feel sick physically and spiritually.

[JackieJ2]

I am dealing with this issue right now with my daughter and her fiancé. I have spoken with her and told her she needs to be accountable for this action. She insists they are not sleeping together(they live in the same house) but I was not born yesterday. She believes and has since a young age and he comes from a very Godly home and believes but this just doesn't seem to bother either of them. Although I can't say that the Holy Spirit doesn't prick their hearts, I'm sure He does. But they are not listening. And since they are keeping the facts from his parents,they obviously know it's wrong. We here at home carry the burden and I pray all the time that the Lord forgive my child and Rick as well. And that He will make them see that this IS sin. My daughter is very sensitive and so makes it hard to talk with her. But I must keep trying. I need her to understand that they CAN reverse this lifestyle, repent and live pure until their marriage where God will bless them and bring them together as one. Won't you pray with me? God Bless all. This was a good discussion and I appreciate all who answered.

[vemee]

Thank you, futurehope. That makes sense, I suppose. It does seem to me that since it says "and such WERE some of you" that it's implying these are habitual sins that the unsaved commit, before they are saved. However, what if the saved person is commiting these offenses? What if they refuse to even recognize it as being wrong? What is your take on homosexuals? Can they continue to live the gay lifestyle and be saved?

Those who love the Lord and are saved will keep His commandments. 1 John 3:10 says

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor [is] he who does not love his brother.

Also 1 John 3& says

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Righteous living is a product of salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A person who continually practices sin and does not even have the desire to change their ways was never truly saved.

A Christian can go through a time, for whatever reason, when they backslide into something or are deceived into thinking something is ok when it is not. The man in 1 Corinthians was living in sin and the Corinthians were sinning by approving it. It was so serious that Paul had to scold them for allowing this to go on and Paul ordered the man put out of the Church. Everyone repented including the man who was sinning. Paul told them to welcome the sinner back but he did not say the man needed to be saved again.

If they are Christ's then they will respond to the Holy Spirit in time unless their continual sinning has caused them to harden their hearts toward God to such an extreme that they no longer hear Him and they no longer believe in Him. If they do fall into unbelief then they are lost because our salvation is dependent on abiding in continual faith in Christ. I am sorry but I just doomed this thread to the once saved always saved thread but I feel that if the Bible has verses such as Hebrews 3:14

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

which warn us of a danger of falling out of the faith not by sinning but by no longer believing then I would be irresponsible before God by not to mention that warning.

[sunshine2777]

Here's a question to consider:

If a christian dies at a moment in his life when he is very angry and thinking bad thoughts towards someone else or if a christian dies at a moment when he sees his neighbor drive up in a brand new vehicle that he wants and wishes he had instead of his neighbor, will he still be saved and go to heaven?

Sin is sin and there is only ONE sin that is unforgiveable: rejecting the One who died for our sins.

You have to realize how much of a sinner we really are all and how we all still sin on a daily basis. It might not be in our actions as we grow, but our thoughts can make us just as guilty according to what Jesus said.

Alot of christians will continue to sin out of ignorance sometimes, but they are no less saved. It all comes down to the heart and only God knows the true heart of someone. It all comes down to faith.

[Steve53]

... It all comes down to faith.

Being rapture ready means never having to unpack your bags.

[Kliska]

This is my view. In the 1 Corinthian quote, when the Lord is referring to fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, I think he is using those labels to describe unsaved people only. Saved people sin also, but they are not referred to in the above terms, because the righteousness of the Lord sanctifies them. Because Paul then says "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

That says to me that once you are saved, you can still sin (and you will), but you are being sanctified by the blood of Christ, and the labels no longer define who you are. Christ's redeeming blood now defines you as "a sinner saved by grace". So, for example, you still may lie, but the label "lier" does not define who you are (in Christ). You may still be caught in adultery, but the label "adultress" does not define who you are (in Christ).

So, following my logic, if you are smack dab in the middle of sinning when you pass on to eternity, the sin you are in the middle of is not your true identity. Christ and his sanctification have made you into a new creation. You were engaging in sin, but as a saved Christian you were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Sin does not permanently define who you are. Your new identity is in Christ.

Someone, correct me if I am wrong here.

You are right, and your answer indeed counts for all those labels and sins. If we, ANYone, are in Christ, the labels don't apply. And we are in Christ by grace through faith, not by works. Once in Christ sin can no longer separate us from God.

[Mailmandan]

I've heard certain people quote Romans 11:22 to try and prove that a genuine believer can lose their salvation. I believe in eternal security of the believer, but I'm having some difficulty with understanding Romans 11:22 in light of eternal security of the believer.

[HeIsEnough]

Just to mix this up a little, as this is discussed often on the board. A similar thing will happen to the world. Those who refused to love the truth will be blinded by deception, that they shall believe the lie. Israel was blinded in part, and that same part that was blinded refused to believe and obey the truth and thus be saved. The day of the Gentile 'cutting off' is coming.

[Naftali]

I've heard certain people quote Romans 11:22 to try and prove that a genuine believer can lose their salvation. I believe in eternal security of the believer, but I'm having some difficulty with understanding Romans 11:22 in light of eternal security of the believer.

The olive tree /root represents the the patriarchs: (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc) with whom God entered into a special covenant.
The branches are the Hebrew people.
The first century Jews who heard and believed the gospel message remained in their native olive tree as the natural branches and flourished.
The branches that were broken off represented first those Jews who rejected the gospel and remained in unbelief.
Gentiles who heard the message and believed were "grafted in" to the olive tree.
As Paul wrote in Ephesians, they had no Messiah, they were estranged from the national life of Israel, foreigners to the covenants, without God and therefore without hope. Being "grafted in" made them partakers of God's blessings and covenants along with the believing Jews.

[iSong6:3]

The olive tree /root represents the the patriarchs: (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc) with whom God entered into a special covenant.
The branches are the Hebrew people.
The first century Jews who heard and believed the gospel message remained in their native olive tree as the natural branches and flourished.
The branches that were broken off represented first those Jews who rejected the gospel and remained in unbelief.
Gentiles who heard the message and believed were "grafted in" to the olive tree.
As Paul wrote in Ephesians, they had no Messiah, they were estranged from the national life of Israel, foreigners to the covenants, without God and therefore without hope. Being "grafted in" made them partakers of God's blessings and covenants along with the believing Jews.

Gentile believers are not grafted into all "the covenants" of Israel. They are not given title to the Land, for example, they are not part of the "national life of Israel". They are not Israel. The Church has a different history and destiny than Israel.

They have the hope of salvation through Messiah Jesus, which heretofore was only a hope of Israel - salvation is of the Jews. It goes outward, not back in to the bubble of Israel.

[Aussie Micha]

Once SAVED, always saved.

So what would happen if one would turn to Satanism? And don't give me the 'He was not really saved in the first place' comments.

I know Christians that were true believers, and they have know gone way off track and totally deny the Son now. They only believe in Mother Nature force etc...

So there's no free will then? Even if someone changes their mind?

I believe you can choose Christ and when you do you have security in Him forever, but if you go along and later you don't believe, then you loose your salvation. It's totally different to being backslidden (you still believe, but choose to do your own thing) etc...

There's other scriptures that balance it all. Don't just use one that proves it, and run with it only.

[onehappymeg]

1 John 2:1, 4 NKJV

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


1 John 3:6 NKJV

Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Yes, we will still sin when we are saved. To abide, meaning to stay in sin and not be convicted calls into question one's salvation. A true follower of Christ will be convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Hope I said that right.

[iSong6:3]

So what would happen if one would turn to Satanism? And don't give me the 'He was not really saved in the first place' comments.

I know Christians that were true believers, and they have know gone way off track and totally deny the Son now. They only believe in Mother Nature force etc...

So there's no free will then? Even if someone changes their mind?

I believe you can choose Christ and when you do you have security in Him forever, but if you go along and later you don't believe, then you loose your salvation. It's totally different to being backslidden (you still believe, but choose to do your own thing) etc...

There's other scriptures that balance it all. Don't just use one that proves it, and run with it only.

Here's the problem then, it's not anything else but your thought that one can lose one's salvation.

No worries, we're not going to argue it with you, so we won't run afoul of your conditions on the kind of reply you will entertain. We have already gone over this subject quite a bit: http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1159...highlight=OSAS

Here's our position: http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/eter...e-whole-story/

[onehappymeg]

I forgot this gem:

1 John 2:19 NKJV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[iSong6:3]

I forgot this gem:

1 John 2:19 NKJV

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Excellent, thanks, meg.

[Buzzardhut]

So what would happen if one would turn to Satanism? And don't give me the 'He was not really saved in the first place' comments.

I know Christians that were true believers, and they have know gone way off track and totally deny the Son now. They only believe in Mother Nature force etc...

NOPE
If they are truly saved they will turn back to God after reveling in their vomit.

So there's no free will then? Even if someone changes their mind?

There surely is free will

I believe you can choose Christ and when you do you have security in Him forever, but if you go along and later you don't believe, then you loose your salvation. It's totally different to being backslidden (you still believe, but choose to do your own thing) etc...

Once we are locked into Jesus there is no escape because Jesus' blood atonement is more wonderful than you could ever realize.

There's other scriptures that balance it all. Don't just use one that proves it, and run with it only.

Praise God for balanced scripture, balanced salvation, and balance Christians!

[Aussie Micha]

So there's no free will then? Even if someone changes their mind?

T

There surely is free will

How then, if you are locked in and don't want to be???