Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Obadiah]

I believe the notion that "all sins are the same" derives from a misreading of James 2:8-13.

James' point is that all sins are equal within the very restricted sense that any sin makes you a sinner. If there's a sin you don't commit, that doesn't negate the reality of committing the sins you do commit. All sin, no matter the nature of it, is a violation of God's law. So, no matter how many sins you commit and how many you don't, you're still a violator of the law.

But to reason from this that "all sins are the same" and God sees no difference between growing impatient in line at the grocery store and murdering someone is absurd. To propose that raping someone is no worse than cheating on your income taxes is absurd.

The Torah prescribes specific penalties for specific sins. In some cases, there's a monetary fine, where in other cases, the punishment is death. If "all sins are the same," why does God punish them differently?

Jesus noted that "it will be worse" in the judgment for some than for others. If "all sin is the same," why would one receive a more severe judgment than another?

[Robbinson]

All sins are ulimtately forgiven through the Cross (except the sin of blaspehemy against the Holy Spirit). So in terms of justification, there is no distinction. But there is probably a difference in terms of "sanctification" and we will be rewarded in heaven based upon the extent to which we follow Christ's commandments.

I think the earlier response re: references to the Torah is spot on and I do think there will be differences in God's eyes regarding our sins, as believers, in obtaining our rewards in heaven.

Best,

Brian

[Acts1711]

The Bible mentions things he "hates" more then others... for example Proverbs 6:16-19 but over all HE can't look upon any sin.... which is why Jesus felt His father leave (forsake) him for a short time while He was on the cross...

[Paul M]

I think God does makes distinctions regarding the severity/type of sin. That is obvious from reading scripture. There is a more urgent issue though.


For example, if you look at a woman lustfully, but don't physically do anything, you are guilty of adultery according to Jesus. Now, the consequences are quite different if you were to say, cheat on your wife and go sleep with another woman . You have lots of consequences, alot more than from just thinking about it. So, you have a serious sin and then varying levels of depravity having to do with that area. The problem with lust is that it always begins with a thought and eventually the thought leads to action.

The same with anger, being angry at someone without a cause is the same as being a murderer, according to Jesus -yet yelling at someone obviously isn't the same as beating their brains out with a bat. Again, the principle is there. A small fire can easily burn out of control.

What does it matter if you drown in a puddle or a lake? you still drown. If you are past the age of accountability you are hell bound if you don't accept Jesus.

I can't imagine trying to be a good person for a lifetime , and at the end finding out it was a massive wasted effort and missing heaven. Yet that is probably what will happen to most people. The horrors of being a 'good' person. I'm glad I messed my life up when I was younger because I had no problem acknowledging my sinfulness. Only God could have put my life back together. I can honestly say that nothing good resides in me aside from Christ.

The worst sin of all is unbelief. It is the only sin that will keep people from heaven. God would have forgiven Hitler if he repented and asked to be saved.

I've mentioned this before, Jeffery Dahmer accepted Christ before being murdered in prison. I find that awsome. The despicable horrible crimes he committed were forgiven by the Lord and he was saved. That same day as he was ushered into heaven by the angels, others were thrown into hell who may have devoted their entire lives to charities, good works, etc. they did not need to be saved they thought, they were good enough. Nothing unclean can be in the presence of God. Only the blood of Christ can make it possible to be in His presence.

[Obadiah]

Paul:

You're spot on with your observation that actually committing adultery is a more severe offense than is cultivating a desire to do so.

Jesus' teaching on this in Matthew 5 has got to be one of those most frequently misapplied of all Scriptures. What Jesus is teaching in this chapter is not that lust is equivalent to adultery or that anger is equivalent to murder. What He's teaching is that you don't have to carry out an evil intention in order to commit sin. Many people in His audience were patting themselves on the back for not being "sinners" (think Luke 18:9-14) because they didn't commit such actions as adultery and murder. But these same people were filled with lust and anger. They rationalized their sinful attitudes because they weren't carrying out the intents of their hearts. What Jesus was teaching is that restraining your actions isn't enough. Sin is sin on the inside, before it is manifested in our actions. To hate one's brother with thoughts of killing him or lust after one's sister with thoughts of raping her is in itself sin. You don't have to actually murder or rape someone to sin; hating and lusting are sins in themselves. But that doesn't mean hating someone is killing him or lusting after someone is raping her. Jesus isn't talking about committing adultery in your heart; He's talking about committing adultery in your heart. In other words, lust is "heart adultery" and hate is "heart murder." But "heart adultery" and "heart murder" are not equivalent to actual, literal, physical adultery and murder. Hating a man doesn't take him away from his family; lusting after a woman does not ruin her marriage. The consequences of the literal sins are far greater; thus, the literal sins merit the greater punishment.

[Constantine I]

Obadiah? Obadiah? Is that you? Are you the Obadiah who plays the Roman-era MMORPG called Roma Victor?

Please answer my question.

In Roma Victor, I am Dalmatius.

[twinkle]

I know a woman whose husband rendered her homeless, left her in a wilderness park with no money and no where to go. She's in her mid-50's and was/is ill, unable to support herself. A man came along and rescued her. Winter was coming on and she most likely would have died out there. This man has provided support and a home for her. She is unable to leave this situation, she would end up back in the park or worse. She has even walked out but returned because she realized that there was no where to go. She has prayed for God to show her a way out of her adultery and feels unable to change her situation. She feels that she can't marry this man because he is an unbeliever and doesn't want to go from bad to worse by marrying someone who is an unbeliever. I haven't known what to tell her. How does God see this? She is in this situation because her husband failed to take care of her and landed her in a sinful situation and she is grieved about her sin. She can't get on her own two feet because of her illness, so the help out there is limited to non-existent. This baffles me as to how this sin of adultery is viewed by God. She doesn't want to be in this situation, but can't find a way out. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Obadiah]

Twinkle:

Your friend is indeed in a terrible situation. I believe when God looks at her He does so in mercy. I think there is a qualitative difference between her actions and those of a person who simply cheats on his or her spouse.

But... if she's engaging in sex with her host, she's definitely in the wrong. There's no justification for her engaging in sex with a man other than her husband.

Is it possible for her to continue accepting this man's hospitality in a chaste manner, or is he merely using her for sex?

Is there a church or other organization that could assist her in finding help (if she's disabled, there certainly ought to be something out there she could find with some savvy guidance) so she wouldn't be dependent on her host and could move out?

I'm sympathetic to the woman's plight, but I can't help wondering if there is, in fact, a way out that she's just not seeing.

[Mailman Dan]

There is a sin thats more costly than others. Creation of a false god to fit your own beliefs is the most costly. If you place your faith in a god named Jesus, but you think he's an angel or a man that became a god, it's not the God of the bible. When people who do that face judgement day, they won't know the God in front of them...


Dan~~~>was guilty of that one for a long time

[dreadreadrea]

All sins are ulimtately forgiven through the Cross (except the sin of blaspehemy against the Holy Spirit)n

so if someone blasphemed the Holy Spirit, they can never be saved?

and what is an example of that? is it taking God's name in vain? i have never understood that scripture.

[Robbinson]

so if someone blasphemed the Holy Spirit, they can never be saved?

and what is an example of that? is it taking God's name in vain? i have never understood that scripture.

Matt 12:31-32
"31.And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32.Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

This is God's word, and so we know it to be true. That being said, I think its quite difficult to actually engage in this sin. I believe that Satin and all of the fallen angels have engaged in this sin - the knowing and intentional blaspehmy of the Holy Spirit. I think this is more than taking God's name in vein. I believe its a knowing and intentional rejection of the Holy Spirit - and since we, humankind, are not really capable of knowing the Holy Spirit until it touches us, and then, I believe it is difficult (some would say impossible) to resist, this should be close to an empty set. (This gets into debate over we who are touched by the Holy Spirit (drawn to Christ) are actually capable of resisting (choosing God) or not capable (irresistable grace)). That is another debate but I would point to this verse as one that, perhaps, suggests we choose (and those who therefore have the Holy Spirit made known to them and yet reject and blasphemy the Holy Spirit, commit this sin). If there is irreistable grace, then I don't believe this verse ever captures any person as described above. But this is a difficult subject of interpretation.

Best,

[saved by Grace]

my take on this is that it may be impossible for a believer to commit this sin.i think it is outright rejection of the Holy spirit.a person that asks Jesus to save him or her is sealed with the Holy spirit upon first belief according to the book of romans.if you reject Jesus and in effect say no to him you are also speaking against the Holy spirit,therefore blaspheming the spirit.that is the worst possible sin you can commit is rejecting the remedy that God has provided.you only have the time you are alive to turn from this dreadful mistake,after that it is too late and you wont be forgiven.

[Metania1]

It was Adam's sin of disobedience that plunged the world into sin, which ultimately led our Lord to be crucified. I would like to know where this sin ranks on the spectrum of sins?

[under]

Read this from verse 25 and it is clear what it is about . They claim that the work of the Spirit is from the devil,so blaspheming the Spirit

[Kliska]

It seems we must be very careful not to strain out gnats and swallow camels in something like this. The main issue is sin itself. One sin is enough to separate man from God, doesn't matter the sin. We sin because we are sinners, and that is why all of us so desperately need Christ. As someone said, the rewards shall be different, and perhaps the punishments will vary too for the unsaved, but the main point, the focal point needs to be the understanding that no matter how we sin, or at what level, we are all sinners deserving of Hell; one sin doesn't trump another. Except for rejecting the urge of the Holy Spirit, which also means rejecting Christ's sacrifice.

To put it differently, barring Christ I am no better than anyone else, and am at the same level, am in the exact same spot of a murderer or an adulterer. As we discussed in a different thread; all our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, that puts it in perspective.

[truthseeker815]

It seems we must be very careful not to strain out gnats and swallow camels in something like this. The main issue is sin itself. One sin is enough to separate man from God, doesn't matter the sin. We sin because we are sinners, and that is why all of us so desperately need Christ. As someone said, the rewards shall be different, and perhaps the punishments will vary too for the unsaved, but the main point, the focal point needs to be the understanding that no matter how we sin, or at what level, we are all sinners deserving of Hell; one sin doesn't trump another. Except for rejecting the urge of the Holy Spirit, which also means rejecting Christ's sacrifice.

To put it differently, barring Christ I am no better than anyone else, and am at the same level, am in the exact same spot of a murderer or an adulterer. As we discussed in a different thread; all our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, that puts it in perspective.

Very well worded,Kliska!I agree completely!!

[JoelH]

It seems we must be very careful not to strain out gnats and swallow camels in something like this. The main issue is sin itself. One sin is enough to separate man from God, doesn't matter the sin. We sin because we are sinners, and that is why all of us so desperately need Christ. As someone said, the rewards shall be different, and perhaps the punishments will vary too for the unsaved, but the main point, the focal point needs to be the understanding that no matter how we sin, or at what level, we are all sinners deserving of Hell; one sin doesn't trump another. Except for rejecting the urge of the Holy Spirit, which also means rejecting Christ's sacrifice.

To put it differently, barring Christ I am no better than anyone else, and am at the same level, am in the exact same spot of a murderer or an adulterer. As we discussed in a different thread; all our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, that puts it in perspective.

Indeed, the punishments given out by Jesus to each individual unrepentant sinner at the Great White Throne judgment will be different. Revelation 20:11-15 states that all unsaved will be judged "according to what they have done" - thus that judgment will be based on their specific sins. Whether someone is saved or unsaved will have already been determined forever earlier upon their physical death.

I think the confusion arises because not much about this topic has been preached in churches for quite some time.

[usaf_chaplain]

Well, you can rest assured your sins are worse than mine!

Are certain sins worse or less worse than others? This is a question that has been bothering me today. Does God think that all sins are equally as bad, or that some are just "the lesser evil?"

Thanks.

[BlessedinHim]

the bible says to break one point in the law, you are then guilty or you have broken the whole law. The law is one thing, it is kinda like being sorta pregnant, either you are, or you are not. I used to think that maybe some were worse than others, but in the OT, there are the sins listed and they are all an abomination.

We are either sinners or not, covered in the blood or not.

there are no degrees of sin or salvation.

[Robbinson]

the bible says to break one point in the law, you are then guilty or you have broken the whole law. The law is one thing, it is kinda like being sorta pregnant, either you are, or you are not. I used to think that maybe some were worse than others, but in the OT, there are the sins listed and they are all an abomination.

We are either sinners or not, covered in the blood or not.

there are no degrees of sin or salvation.

You are correct - however, while there are not degrees of salvation or justification - there are degrees of sanctification and scripture tells us there will be distinctions made among believers based upon our following Christ's commandments. So in that sense, this thread holds some relevance.

Best,