Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[blitzkreig]

Because it is a part of the "Plan". This "Plan" is to His Great "Glory".

But first you need to step back a few steps further and ask why He permitted the Angels to fall ? ...

Why did He permit Satan who was His greatest creation to sin ... ?

How did He come up with the idea for the dumb tree in the garden ... ?

Why did the plan of Salvation before He even permitted Adam's sin ...? Before He even created Adam!!!

If He knew enough to plan Salvation why plant that dumb tree then ... ?

Why did He permit Job to be troubled so ... ? Kill all his kids and destroy him only to raise him up ... ?

Why not admit Angels to the Salvation plan ...? Why are they barred from any plan for their Salvation ... ?

When you get the answer to all of these ... write a book and I will buy your first copy. up

[Saved by Grace_06]

1 Cor. 13:12--For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

God chose us. Our names were written down before we knew we would come to Him:

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Luke 10:20



Pure love seems to come with free will and choice.

We are born to our parents. Most of us love them deeply.
Why? They loved us, even before our births. Some knew our names before we were born. We choose to love our parents. This comes naturally to most. We choose to obey them and please them (for the most part).

How much more our heavenly Father cares for us!

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

Part of our free will is to chose to obey God or not. Because of one man, there is sin. We failed. We are creations of God. Lowly beings created in the image of God, but NOT God.
For since by man (Adam)came death, by man (Jesus, fully human, God in the flesh) came also the resurrection of the dead. Cor. 15:21

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:5-6

Created for His Glory so that we might Glorify Him!


Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Eph.1:9

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Phi. 1:11-12

Good post!

[Saved by Grace_06]

I gave birth, my wife actually, to my children. I love and cherish them.

You are not God. You dont think like him or love like him. In fact, you do not hate like him. God abhors sin to an infinite degree. He kills people for sin. Adam and Eve sinned only once, and was kicked out of pradise, as well as cursed with death for it. Do not suppose that death is a consequence of sin in the same way that popcorn being poped when put over a fire. Rather, death is a consequence of sin because it is God's judgement on it. Again, there is nothing in the children of Adam to cause God to love us. He love us because he choose us, and not because there is something in us to merit his love. All that said, God does not love all. As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esua I have hated." Note, God hated Easu before he was born and before he did anything good or bad.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Because it is a part of the "Plan". This "Plan" is to His Great "Glory".

I agree.

But first you need to step back a few steps further and ask why He permitted the Angels to fall ? ...

To get glory. God does everything for his own name's sake. Unlike the rest of us, God is not an idolater. He puts nothing above himself.

Why did He permit Satan who was His greatest creation to sin ... ?

For his own glory. I'm sorry I cant give you details. I dont know. I just know God permits things because it has a greater good to come out of it, and he is glorified in his choices. This is kind of a Deu 29:29 answer, I think?

How did He come up with the idea for the dumb tree in the garden ... ?

I dont know. I dont know God's mind.

Why did the plan of Salvation before He even permitted Adam's sin ...? Before He even created Adam!!!

To remedy the situation when it occured by His permitting.

If He knew enough to plan Salvation why plant that dumb tree then ... ?

God uses means to bring about certain ends. A lot of our freewill choices are means to which he is pleased to bring about his end, which incidentally results in glorifying God.

Why did He permit Job to be troubled so ... ? Kill all his kids and destroy him only to raise him up ... ?

For a lot of reasons, I think? We can learn from Job to trust God when the worst of situations occur (like Job learned). Also, we know that there is a purpose to all of God's methods. For example, notice Lam 3:32-33:

"though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men."

Why not admit Angels to the Salvation plan ...? Why are they barred from any plan for their Salvation ... ?

We read of the elect angels, who were elected not to fall. So, some do have a salvation plan.

When you get the answer to all of these ... write a book and I will buy your first copy. up

Thanks but, I doubt I answered well enough. I think these are great questions to consider though. And, they are fun to look up in scripture. Prov 25:2..."It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to seek out a matter."

[blitzkreig]

We read of the elect angels, who were elected not to fall. So, some do have a salvation plan.

No salvation ... but I agree elected not to fall. So now ask as opposed to what ...?

The reprobate Angels.

All this to His Glory.

[blitzkreig]

1. Why do you suppose God loves us when there is nothing in us to draw him to us, especially considering that there is only in us things to merit his justice and wrath?

Just a small correction ... there is something within us to draw Him to us. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts a person of their sins. Who turns the heart from stone to flesh so that one believes ...

It is the Holy Spirit who does all of the heavy lifting ...

.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Just a small correction ... there is something within us to draw Him to us. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts a person of their sins. Who turns the heart from stone to flesh so that one believes ...

It is the Holy Spirit who does all of the heavy lifting ...

.

Thank you!

Grace and Peace!!

[BlessedinHim]

I would agree with that. He created us for his own name's sake, or in other words, his glory. But, part of his glory is seen in the excellence of his attributes of love and justice.

Also full of Mercy and Grace. Without which, none of us would be saved.

I have no children, but I do understand your point. The thing is however, we arent like God. His thoughts arent like ours and our ways arent like his own. Therefore, we read in scripture that God hates all who do iniquity (Psa 5:5). All people are born with Adam's curse of hating God, wanting nothing to do with God, loving sin, wanting their will done over and against God's will, etc., and they are like this dispite the fact that they depend on God for everything, even their very breathe. We are born like this once, but thanks be to God that while we were dead in sins, he, because of the love he had for us, made us alive together with Christ - for by grace we are saved (Eph 2:1-3). I said all that to say this: People say, "God loves the sinner but hates the sin." Truely, that is a meaningless distintion, because there is nothing in the sinner but sin. There is nothing in man to cause God to love him, neither is there in anything in man to entrall God to him. Therefore, God being love, chooses to love those whom he choose to love.

He said our best works is like filthy rags. After we have accepted the gift from Christ, God sees the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us.

Would you consider with me that he saves us because he loves us and for his own name's sake (1John 2:12, Psa 25:11, Isa 48:9, 2 Sam 7:23, etc). Please be sure to look up the scripture I am posting.

He alone is worthy to receive Glory, honour, power and praise. Because He is perfect. Perfect Love, Perfect Grace, Perfect Mercy, Perfect Justice.

I agree with this. But, that wasnt the point I was making before. Hopefully I'll make more sense if I ask you the following way: How did you, who were dead in sins become saved, when other people who hear the same message as you did, take it for a joke and foolishness?

Honestly, as I look at what is presented, choosing Christ over the world is the most logical choice to be made. That is me personally. What God has in mind, I dont know all the things of God. I am convinced through His creation that He exists. Darwinism=anti-God=things just fell in place, out of chaos came order. Where has that ever happened without help? that is in direct opposition to another scientific theory=the chaos theory. Everyday things are falling apart in front of our eyes. that is proof. Both of these theories cannot logically co-exist. So, either you have someone putting this all together and putting it into motion or it just fell together? You cant have it both ways. What is there the most proof for? There is a Creator, of course. So you go from there. So who is this Creator? He has made himself know from creation. The Creator walked in the garden with His creation....until....sin. Then there was a great gulf. God is Holy and just and cannot be in the presence of sin. So, He sent His son. His son paid our debt in full, you can accept it or not. Accept, and you have gained favor in the Lord because you have glorified the Son, refuse and you go away from Him, forever separated from our creator. you can believe it or not. doesnt change anything, truth is still the same. The truth never changes. God is truth.

Mat 11:21-26:

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you." At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

If what you said is true, why didnt God do miricles Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom? If those miricles were done in those named cities, Jesus said, those people would have repented. Do you still agree that God calls "everyone" or do you see that "many" and not "all" are called? Moreover, do you see that "God has mercy on whom he has mercy," or do you see that he has mercy on all?

Does God need to do all those signs and wonders? The bible says: an adulterous generation seeks after signs and wonders. Can all see creation? He has made himself known to all by the works of His hands. We cannot say we didnt know. We might not know all the details, but we know there is a creator. Even the tribal people can call upon the Creator of heaven and earth. He says if you seek you will find, knock and it will be opened.

The bible says, he will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. But he already knows the beginning to the ending. He is not contained in our time "continuum"(spell check?) He has no boundaries. We all have received the message. The bible says He would that none be lost.
2 Peter 3 (King James Version)9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Saved by Grace_06]

For: blessedinhim


Honestly, as I look at what is presented, choosing Christ over the world is the most logical choice to be made. That is me personally. What God has in mind, I dont know all the things of God. I am convinced through His creation that He exists. Darwinism=anti-God=things just fell in place, out of chaos came order. Where has that ever happened without help? that is in direct opposition to another scientific theory=the chaos theory. Everyday things are falling apart in front of our eyes. that is proof. Both of these theories cannot logically co-exist. So, either you have someone putting this all together and putting it into motion or it just fell together? You cant have it both ways. What is there the most proof for? There is a Creator, of course. So you go from there. So who is this Creator? He has made himself know from creation. The Creator walked in the garden with His creation....until....sin. Then there was a great gulf. God is Holy and just and cannot be in the presence of sin. So, He sent His son. His son paid our debt in full, you can accept it or not. Accept, and you have gained favor in the Lord because you have glorified the Son, refuse and you go away from Him, forever separated from our creator. you can believe it or not. doesnt change anything, truth is still the same. The truth never changes. God is truth.

So you are more wiser and have more will power than other sinners? You, like all unsaved sinners saw creation and knew that there is a God, and by conscience, knew that you have offended God. So then, why did you choose and they didnt? Consider my question in light of Eph 2:1-9.

The bible says He would that none be lost.

Either the bible has contradicted itself or you are wrong in your understanding of 2Peter 3:9. First, notice Job 23:13..."But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does." Second, notice 2 Pet 3:9 in context (exergesis):

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Who is the "you" refering to? Go one verse back, v8 and see it is the "beloved." Go to verse 1 of 2Peter chapt 3, and notice that this is now the 2nd letter written to the "beloved." So who is the beloved anyway? Go to 1Peter 1:1 and we read..." Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles..." Also, if you look at this in the orignal greek it makes more sense. I would explain it, but it would take up too many words (I dont want to bore you). You can look at this quick youtube video on the correct understanding of 2Peter 3:9 here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TO5XCbupnHA

[HeIsEnough]

You are not God.

Thanks for that. I was confused for a minute, I thought somehow maybe it were possible. Next time you have an answer, maybe I'll ask the question. You're right, it has nothing to do with love because God hates all them sinners. Adios.

[HeIsEnough]

But, part of his glory is seen in the excellence of his attributes of love and justice.

Sincere?

Actually, God has described Himself as love, not justice.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

It would be better to view it as if we spurn His love, we incur His justice.

[BlessedinHim]

For: blessedinhim


Honestly, as I look at what is presented, choosing Christ over the world is the most logical choice to be made. That is me personally. What God has in mind, I dont know all the things of God. I am convinced through His creation that He exists. Darwinism=anti-God=things just fell in place, out of chaos came order. Where has that ever happened without help? that is in direct opposition to another scientific theory=the chaos theory. Everyday things are falling apart in front of our eyes. that is proof. Both of these theories cannot logically co-exist. So, either you have someone putting this all together and putting it into motion or it just fell together? You cant have it both ways. What is there the most proof for? There is a Creator, of course. So you go from there. So who is this Creator? He has made himself know from creation. The Creator walked in the garden with His creation....until....sin. Then there was a great gulf. God is Holy and just and cannot be in the presence of sin. So, He sent His son. His son paid our debt in full, you can accept it or not. Accept, and you have gained favor in the Lord because you have glorified the Son, refuse and you go away from Him, forever separated from our creator. you can believe it or not. doesnt change anything, truth is still the same. The truth never changes. God is truth.

So you are more wiser and have more will power than other sinners? You, like all unsaved sinners saw creation and knew that there is a God, and by conscience, knew that you have offended God. So then, why did you choose and they didnt? Consider my question in light of Eph 2:1-9.

The bible says He would that none be lost.

Either the bible has contradicted itself or you are wrong in your understanding of 2Peter 3:9. First, notice Job 23:13..."But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does." Second, notice 2 Pet 3:9 in context (exergesis):

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Who is the "you" refering to? Go one verse back, v8 and see it is the "beloved." Go to verse 1 of 2Peter chapt 3, and notice that this is now the 2nd letter written to the "beloved." So who is the beloved anyway? Go to 1Peter 1:1 and we read..." Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles..." Also, if you look at this in the orignal greek it makes more sense. I would explain it, but it would take up too many words (I dont want to bore you). You can look at this quick youtube video on the correct understanding of 2Peter 3:9 here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TO5XCbupnHA

I never never said I was wiser. Perhaps I should have said retrospectively as I look back I see choosing Christ as the most logical thing to do. I know the Spirit of God draws man to Him. I know He has drawn me to Him. I dont know why someone wont choose Christ. It boggles my mind. But then again, it is because they are blinded by their own love for the sins they do and they do not want to choose Christ. That is redundant. Why do they not repent of their sins? Christ died for all. I still stand on that He doesnt want any to perish, but our freewill allows it. The gift is there for all to receive, just some wont. I dont know why, I do not know the hearts of others and barely know my own. I have my own struggles. God is no respector of persons. We all have the same available and He is the same toward all. Our choices shape the response we get from God.

So, are you implying that he can lose part of His beloved in saying I dont understand 2peter 3:9? He cannot lose any of His own. If you go back and read again that whole chapter, my intentions are correct. God is giving every opportunity for all to come to Him in repentence.

We only see contradictions in light of the fact that we do not understand that particular part of the scripture.

I see, you are a calvinist. And if you read that scripture fully in context the meaning becomes quite clear. Read the whole chapter.

I am not a calvinist or a anythingist for that matter. I know there are parts of scripture that I do not understand. I take the bible at its face value, I know about hermaneutics, and my view of what the bible means to me has been brought about by much prayer and study and listening to the Lord's Spirit.

[Saved by Grace_06]

blessedinhim: I never never said I was wiser.

I know you didnt. I made the point that if you believed in and of yourself, when others who heard the same gospel didnt, then you would have to be wiser and have more will power than all sinners who are "dead in sins."

Perhaps I should have said retrospectively as I look back I see choosing Christ as the most logical thing to do.

I'm not saying you didnt choose Christ. There is truth to you choosing him, I wont take that from you. I'm just saying that your choice was an effect of his drawing you in love. "He made you willing in the day of his power and you offered youself willingly" (Psa 110:3).

I dont know why someone wont choose Christ. It boggles my mind.

"No one seeks after God" (Romans 3:11). No one loves God, but rather all love darkness more than light. The only ones who love God are those whom God has freed from their self-imposed slavery to sin. He gives them eyes to see, a heart to believe, and changes their nature, and then the believe and follow him. Grace proceeds faith. "Unless a man is born again (regenerated) he cannot even see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

But then again, it is because they are blinded by their own love for the sins they do and they do not want to choose Christ.

What seperates you from them? I'd say grace. Whats your answer to why you believe and esteem Christ as precious, especially considering that you, like they, were all dead in sins and unable to help yourself?

Christ died for all.

Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." Did he lay down his life for people who arent sheep? Read Hebrews 2:9-18 and see that Jesus died for everyone. Who does the "everyone" ential? According to Hebrews 2:9-18, they are his sheep, his brothers, his people whom the father has given him out of the whole world.

I still stand on that He doesnt want any to perish, but our freewill allows it.

When speaking about "God's will," we must make clear of what we are speaking of, whether "what God would like to see occur" or "what he actually allows to happen." Both are spoken of as "God's will" in scripture. So that said, I agree that God would like to see all men saved in one sense. This however, in no way contradicts God's unconditional election because in another sense, God does everything he desires (Job 23:13). If you hold that God wants all to save and does not save all, there are problems that occure, from scripture contradiction, to charging God with being disingenous and mean.

The gift is there for all to receive, just some wont.

I agree. Salvation is available to ALL men, everywhere. Salvation is of the Lord and he is soverign to save whom He wills. But, there is still the real promise to "whosoever wills, let them come" vis-va-vis, "human responsiblity" to come. Whoever comes will be saved. The problem is however, I have not seen any scripture where anyone came to Christ without frist being drawn. Men simply freely choose NOT to come to Christ. They love sin that much!

I dont know why, I do not know the hearts of others and barely know my own. I have my own struggles. God is no respector of persons. We all have the same available and He is the same toward all. Our choices shape the response we get from God.

I agree that God is a respector of no one. I believe that is why He chooses to have mercy on whom ever he choose. If he was a respector of persons, slavation would be of man, and God would choose on the basis of what man did. But, Salvation is of The Lord as the bible says, and he calls whoever he wants to salavation. Freewill never saved anyone, grace alone does that.

So, are you implying that he can lose part of His beloved in saying I dont understand 2peter 3:9? He cannot lose any of His own. If you go back and read again that whole chapter, my intentions are correct. God is giving every opportunity for all to come to Him in repentence.

2 Peter 3:9 in context is talking about God's elect. And yes, God is not willing that any of them perish, but that all [his elect] come to salvation.

I see, you are a calvinist. And if you read that scripture fully in context the meaning becomes quite clear. Read the whole chapter.

I'm a Christian who agree that Calvin's theology, especially concerning salvation. Read the whole bible in context and you'll see that God has always saved a people to himself, for his name's sake, and saved them by Sovereign grace alone. Read my post on "Why Eternal Security?" to get a better understanding of this truth. Read it here: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=2340

I am not a calvinist or a anythingist for that matter. I know there are parts of scripture that I do not understand. I take the bible at its face value, I know about hermaneutics, and my view of what the bible means to me has been brought about by much prayer and study and listening to the Lord's Spirit.

I'm glad to hear it. Ultimately it is not a correct understanding of theology that saves, but faith in Christ alone. Therefore, I'd encourage you to continue to strive for holiness and by prayer, a deeper relationship with the God who saved us.

[BlessedinHim]

2 peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

ok.

1. He is talking to Dear Friends.
2. He is talking about those scoffers.
3. He is saying He is patient to allow as much time as His patience allows so that all could come to Him in repentence.
4. All means everyone.
5. Everyone means just that--EVERYONE.
6. What should not be forgotten?
7. Conclusion, His patience does end and that day will come as a thief in the night, sadly, not all will come to repentence, even tho God would rather they did.

2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

[BlessedinHim]

I think you are getting predestination in this. In the bible predestination is the same as just knowing ahead. He predestined, knew ahead of time, what choices we would ultimately make. And in this foreknowledge, He then works all things together for good for those who love Him.

This is my own thinking here, since He does not control us because He gave us freewill in our choices, I wonder, does He cause us to have pause or speed in the walk of our life to cause our paths to cross with others? Could this be one way He works all things to good for those who love Him?

I ponder a lot of things, but know that ultimately God will reveal the things that needs to be revealed at the right time.

I am very aware that knowledge does not save a person, but the repentent heart, admitting that we are sinners, and asking God to save us, accepting His gift. Acknowledging Him and accepting that gift is the only way to be saved, the only thing we can do. The rest is out of gratification for what He has done.

[Saved by Grace_06]

2 peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

ok.

1. He is talking to Dear Friends.
2. He is talking about those scoffers.
3. He is saying He is patient to allow as much time as His patience allows so that all could come to Him in repentence.
4. All means everyone.
5. Everyone means just that--EVERYONE.
6. What should not be forgotten?
7. Conclusion, His patience does end and that day will come as a thief in the night, sadly, not all will come to repentence, even tho God would rather they did.

2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should persish, but that all should come to repentance."

Things to notice:

1. The "usward" that the Lord isnt slack concerning his promise is the "beloved" in v8. The "beloved" in v8 is the same beloved in v1, where we find that this is the second letter to the beloved. Go to the first letter, namely 1Peter 1 to find out who the "beloved" and the "us-ward" is refering to. It is God's elect.

2. See the word "some men?" It is the word "Tis" in the Greek and it means "certain ones" or "certain one."

3. See the word "any?" It is the same Greek word used for "some men." Again, the word is "Tis" and it means "certian ones" or a certain one.

4. The verse (2Peter 3:9) would read like this in the orignal Greek:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as certain ones count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that certain ones should persish, but that all should come to repentance."

5. See the word "all?" It is the word "Pas" in the Greek. The meaning of the word is:

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything

2) collectively
2a) some of all types

In "Context" of what is written, both in the Greek and also in a contexual reading in the English, we see that the "all" is referring to a collective people and not all, as in all indiviusally.

6. Again. If God wanted all people to be saved, he would have done it, since he always does what he desires (Job 23:13)

[BlessedinHim]

You believe that God wants some of His creation to go to Hell? That is not what the bible teaches.

[Saved by Grace_06]

I think you are getting predestination in this. In the bible predestination is the same as just knowing ahead. He predestined, knew ahead of time, what choices we would ultimately make. And in this foreknowledge, He then works all things together for good for those who love Him.

In my humble opinion, this is a man centered view of scripture, where man is first, and God is after. God doesnt save man because he foreknows they would have faith. Rather, he foreknew them the same way he forknew Jesus in 1Peter 1:20, Israel in Amos 3:2, Jermemiah in Jer 1:5, etc. Its an intermiate knowldge of a person...epigonosco in the Greek. U have to understand that mankind, apart from Christ and the grace of God are all evil God haters. None seek God. None want God. None Love God. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved" (Eph 2:4-5). Its by grace anyone is ever saved. Free will only sends people to hell. Grace alone saves.

This is my own thinking here, since He does not control us because He gave us freewill in our choices, I wonder, does He cause us to have pause or speed in the walk of our life to cause our paths to cross with others? Could this be one way He works all things to good for those who love Him?

You see in scripture the idea of freewill, therefore you will not see that God does control us, at least to a certain degree (if we are his people). There is only one being truely free in the universe, and that is God. Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. If sin, they follow satan. If Righteousness, they follow Christ and God. But, they follow someone. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Your human responsiblity), because it is God in you both to will and to work for his own good pleasure" (God's Sovereignty). That by the way is Phi 2:12-13.

I ponder a lot of things, but know that ultimately God will reveal the things that needs to be revealed at the right time.

I rest on this too. He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud.

I am very aware that knowledge does not save a person, but the repentent heart, admitting that we are sinners, and asking God to save us, accepting His gift. Acknowledging Him and accepting that gift is the only way to be saved, the only thing we can do. The rest is out of gratification for what He has done.

Here's the thing. We do not "accept Jesus." Jesus is King of kings, Lord of lords, and uncreated Creator God. He accepts us. And, he will if we repent and trust in Him alone. Repentance and Faith are the two wings that will fly us to the Savior, not "accepting Jesus."

[Saved by Grace_06]

You believe that God wants some of His creation to go to Hell? That is not what the bible teaches.

I believe that God would like to have all people saved (His Will/what he desires).
I beleive that since none seek God and all hate God, God chose a people to the praise and glory of His grace (His will/what he actually does allow to occur).

Finally, "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction" (Proverb 16:4).

This, I believe, is a God-centered view of scripture. Everything starts with God and ends with God. All things were made for him and by Him. He does all that he does his own glory, even love, save and forgive his people.

[Big Daddy]

Simply, redemption is only the doorway to the restoration of God's purpose for His creation, the main reason why Christ came to Earth.

...that's why Jesus is called the, second Adam.

What does this mean in regards to the OP? OSAS?