Hehe... I love you too brother!Originally Posted by Ormly
Yes
No
Hehe... I love you too brother!
Hehe... I love you too brother!
I knew you would come around once you got to know me.
Psalm 107
This is "Once Saved Always Saved" subject is controversial, and by examining the Scriptures, I see both sides of the arguement clearly. I think the main conclusion is in God's eyes, He knows who is really saved, and on this side of heaven, you can't really always tell.
I've learned from my own life experience to not just assume your election. The Bible says to "make your election sure." (Sorry...don't have the verse handy). However, we don't have to live life worrying if we are saved or not. If we are abiding in Christ our Lord, and obeying His Word & commands in love for Him, we can be sure of our salvation (because you can't truly do that apart from the Holy Spirit).
As far as the branches being "cut off" the vine and "burned." That could mean if a person, who once claimed to be a Christian, dies in an unrepentant state. Or, it could mean a disobedient Christian who is not abiding in the vine will be (temporarily) cut off, and eventually burned with fire in an earthly judgement. (I read that "fire" in the Scriptures means judgement).
Can somebody go from "saved" to "unsaved" to "saved" again? It doesn't seem to make sense in our minds. However, I did notice in the "Parable of the Prodigal Son", the son returns and is aware he has sinned against heaven. His estatic father says "...your brother was dead, but is alive again....was lost but now is found." So, it sounds like a man that was alive at one time, then was "dead" in his rebellion and transgressions, and then repented and was "alive" and "found" again.
Just an observation I noticed...and something to think about. From my own life experience, I've had to really study the Scriptures and found the answers to these questions, but I want to make sure I take verses in the correct context.
And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11b, NKJV)Marvel not that I said to you, You must be born again. -Jesus (John 3:7, NKJV)
That is a troubling passage isn't it?
Check out the similarities here;
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Once again however, in both passages, the illustration of continued growth to fruit production is in view here. If we look at Jesus words in the context of Israel, then we can see some correlation to the Romans 11 passage. Especially in that there were obiously some in Israel who DID continue. There were them in Israel that did indeed abide, and were never cut off. They were carried over from the old covenant, directly into the new covenant.
Point is, in both passages there is a "continuance" that is required, and if indeed the continuance is not observed, the branch is broken off. But God is the judge, He is the vine dresser, not man. As I believe you said, we don't really know by observance. We can know WE OURSELVES are saved. But, since some can even be graft in again, we cannot accuractely judge another.
Lookin'up,redemption soon
the clincher is: We do not always do what He desires us to do. Our freewill does indeed impede the desire that all would be saved.
Could u explain, please?
Psalm 107
^Thanks for typing all those verses. I am with you on your thoughts.
What is interesting, is tonight I heard a talk on this very subject about the vine & branches from a very godly man who knows the Scriptures well. Basically what he said (if I can repeat him accurately) is that the "branches that are burned" are people at church that really do not have a true relationship with the Lord (never have had one), and do not bear (good) fruit. A true branch, however, will be pruned by God to bear greater fruit. Apart from Christ, a true branch cannot bear any fruit (of course). He is the vine, the only source of strength to the branch.
And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11b, NKJV)Marvel not that I said to you, You must be born again. -Jesus (John 3:7, NKJV)
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. --1John 3:6
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. -- 1John 3:9
Here is the crux of the issue: It is not a question of whether or not Christian can fall away. Rather, the question is, has the person really been born again (regenerated/resurrected to new life in Christ). A Christian never stops being a Christian. And, a Christian, because of his new nature, cannot live in sin. It is like a fish being out of water for him. It is impossible for a Chrisitan to live in habitual sin. If he does, he reveals to never have been one in the first place.
Lookin'up,redemption soon
Do you do everything God wants you to do? Isnt that why some dont get saved? They dont want to? Not everyone answers the call.
Psalm 107
^Thanks for that verse, because it really has ministered to me before, and again tonight. Your additional words also minister to me.
Looking back at myself, that is one of the main verses that show me that I might not have been really "there" with the Lord. I'm not sure, but I am now.
Now, after tearful repentance over my sins (and water baptism) I live in His definite strength and power righteously before Him (in holiness) like He calls me to. I've also been baptized in the Holy Spirit, which I wasn't before. I have the joy of the Lord. I'm "born again!" I'm part of the Vine!
Last edited by RefinedbyFire; May 18th, 2007 at 04:25 AM. Reason: change of thought
And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11b, NKJV)Marvel not that I said to you, You must be born again. -Jesus (John 3:7, NKJV)
Lookin'up,redemption soon
The best article I've found regarding OSAS doctrine can be found at the following website:
http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_ch...once_saved.htm
The author presents a rather good anti OSAS argument.
Psalm 107
blessedinHim: Because we are human, Christians of course are going to sin (that is why we need our daily Mediator, Christ Jesus), but Christians are not to habitually sin.
Christy, thanks for that article! I'm going to read it..
Last edited by RefinedbyFire; May 18th, 2007 at 04:24 AM.
And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11b, NKJV)Marvel not that I said to you, You must be born again. -Jesus (John 3:7, NKJV)
Christians can sin. They cant however, live in it.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. -- 1John 3:9
It is more than us "not falling into habitual sin." The truth of the gospel is that Christ died to save us from sin that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. It is the promise of God that we will grow in holiness. Read the promise of converstion described in Ezk 36:35-37. God promises that his people will be made holy - in this life and more so in the light to come. God does not have any children that lives in continual habitual sin.
Oh, I think I see what you're saying now? Yes, I believe God calls all (in a sense). First, mankind knows that there is a God (from creation alone), and knows that he has offended this holy God (by conscience alone). Therefore, in that sense, all men ought to come to Christ for forgiveness. But who comes on their own? I read that "none seek after God" (Romans 3:11) and that "none can come unless the Father draws them"( John 6:44). It is not as though there is something preventing man to come that he cannot come before the Father's drawing. Rather, it is because "none seek God" that "none can come." Therefore we read, "to all those who are called, both from the Jews and Greek, Christ is the power of God" (1Cor 1:24). And in another place "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
I think scripture is clear. Only those whom are called by God are saved. The rest, in their own freewill, choose to live in sin and love sin over light. Grace alone saves. Freewill only sends people to hell.
Hi Jayna,
I hope it was edifying to you. I just read a post called short accound vs total forgiveness that had a great article in it that I agree with on this subject.
Fathers Blessings and His love always!
JUSTASINNERSAVEDBYGRACE,
Thank you so much for sharing this. I'm so sorry for your loss also and one day I just know we will all see each other again in heaven. Praise God!!
I totally agree with this:
And I think of the prodigal son.
1 John 3:9 is is a verse which is very strong on the point of OSAS.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It is the reasoning that "his seed remains" <--"eth" = continually) in him.
The point is God does not judge you a sinner if you are in Christ (born of God).
So you literally cannot sin.
Unless the Rapture comes first, we will all die before all we will be comes to fruitition. As Paul wrote, "He who has begun a good work in you, will bring it to completion at the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ." And I believe, (stating this with fear and trembling lest someone disagree,) that that day has not yet come.
Nontheless, He has begun His good work in each of us, and will bring it to completion, no matter how many detours we foolishly make along the way. It is His promise, and His responsibility to keep it by His power. He has said it, and can be trusted to do it.
Do you mean that the New Nature/Christ Nature in a believer cannot sin, but the old Sin Nature, still present, can? Or am I reading more into this than you meant?
