Yes
No
I am not going to get into a debate either. I do not believe that OSAS. sorry. I will stand by scripture.Originally Posted by Everlasting Peace
I TIM 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
The following may help with both your question and WarriorOfTheFather's. I would like to help, but I don't like to argue. If you don't accept the Doctrine of OSAS, then you are free to not believe. As said before, I was just very surprised that you directed others to a website for "clarification" when you knew that site was not in line with the Doctrinal Statement provided here. I don't want to come off as "preachy," but this forum is to ask questions if you're looking for help or answers. It's not here for you, or anybody else, to convert others to a false belief by sending them to alternative websites. In fact, that site you referred others to is outright calling God a liar. Very insulting! The reason I thought you both weren't serious or mistaken at first is because I noticed you weren't new members. Back-to-back, it just threw me. So, with all due respect, I hope the following answer from Jack Kelley will prove to be useful in answering your questions.The Bible says some shall depart from the faith. depart=leave. So they WERE saved but they leave the faith.
You are saying that they are saved?? So then I might as well go drink and party and drug and fornicate right now and quit praying and praising and walking in the light because hey, I will still be saved!! ??? Color me confused.
I guess you believe that we can reject our salvation after receiving it by not striving to live a “holy” life. What do you do with clear statements that the Holy Spirit is sealed inside every believer at the moment of belief as God’s guarantee of our inheritance, as it says in Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22, & 2 Cor.5:5. This happens before we’ve done anything good or bad as a believer. In the latter passage Paul wrote that it’s God who makes us stand and that He put His seal of ownership on us and His Spirit in us. Where in all the New Testament does it ever say that He breaks that seal and revokes His guarantee? You imply that his other letters contradict these claims. Was Paul not telling us the full story there?
And what about the Lord’s promise in John 6:39-40 that He won’t lose any of us who believe in Him? Isn’t He the Shepherd and aren’t we the sheep? Doesn’t the Shepherd go after the sheep who wander away and bring them back? Isn’t that the Shepherd’s job? After dying that awful death to get us, does He then let some of us slip through His fingers? Don’t several passages like John 10:27-30 and Romans 8:38-39 clearly promise that no one can get us away from Him? Or does your Bible say “no one but us”. If the Lord’s death was sufficient to save us, but not to keep us, then it wasn’t really sufficient.
This is a “saved by grace, kept by works” doctrine and it’s self-contradictory at best. It holds that even though you didn’t do anything to get yourself saved, Jesus will only help keep you that way if you’re doing everything you can do first. It’s like saying the Shepherd only goes after the sheep who are working hard enough not to wander off. It relegates Him to a participatory role in saving us and gives those of you who live lives that are holy enough to get you into the rapture the very bragging rights that Ephesians 2:8-9 denies you. No matter how you cut it, it turns our salvation into something that some deserve and others don’t.
The solution to all of this is simple and I’ve written about it numerous times. There are two levels to our relationship with God. One is called union. It’s a gift and it’s unconditional. It’s based on belief alone and qualifies you for eternal life with God. You have it forever the minute you ask.
The other is fellowship. It’s conditional and earns you rewards, both here and in eternity. Living a life that’s pleasing to God brings great blessing here, and can also qualify you for crowns and other unnamed treasure in Heaven. It’s based on your works. You can’t know if you have any treasure or crowns until you get to the Bema Seat after it’s too late.
The many Scriptures that promise the free and irrevocable gift of salvation are about union with God. Those that speak of good behavior and promise blessings and crowns for the victorious are about fellowship.
This view removes all the “contradiction” in Scripture, all the merit from salvation, and all the argument about security.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...rks/#more-6364
ONLY God knows whether or not a heart is truly repentive or not. I am NOT going to say who is or is not saved, but being saved once at 12 does not assure a man of 80 who never opened his Bible and used the Lord's name in vain and mocked "Bible Thumpers" that he is going to Heaven. ONLY God knows but the Bible clearly states that it IS possible to depart from the faith.
what is the difference between a person who departs from the faith 1 day later or 18 years later...if the Bible says that it is possible to depart from the faith, then it is. I can think of some pastors who were walking right with the Lord and it seems that even they can be tempted away from the truth and are no longer walking with the Lord and are preaching this Emergent theology.
I think some people are playing with fire when they start trying to diminish the work of the Cross. As the article by Jack Kelly clearly points out, to think that you can be saved by grace but then need to work at keeping it OR by claiming that you're saved but that you can somehow become unsaved by walking away from God, again...you are minimizing the work that Christ did on the Cross. The Bible clearly states that we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit so if anyone thinks they can get saved and then walk away from their Salvation, then based on God's Word (once you're sealed you're sealed) you weren't saved in the first place.
Second of all, being filled with the Holy Spirit or sealed by the Holy Spirit upon acceptance of Christ as your Savior doesn't mean YOU all of a sudden choose to "do good" but instead Christ lives in you through the Holy Spirit so the changes that you go through during the growth in your Christian walk is not YOU making these changes for Christ but Christ changing you through the Holy Spirit...when you become saved you submit yourself to God, you submit your will so that He can do His Will in you and by doing His Will, you automatically change but you have to submit your will to His in order for this change to happen so again....................if you are claiming that you have accepted Christ as your Savior but then you're taking the Lord's name in vain....then I hate to be so blunt but you probably weren't saved in the first place. Just because a person CLAIMS they've accepted Christ, doesn't mean they have...that's why the Lord says you will know them (those who are truly saved) by their fruit.
I know it's not the easiest thing to deal with....to hear that you were probably not saved in the first place, I know because I had to face the same reality recently. I accepted Christ as my Savior at a young age (12 years old) but I rebelled at 15 and didn't come back to the Lord until I was almost 38. The whole time I swore I was saved but that I had just rebelled (the prodigal daughter per se) but bottom line I had to face was that the chances of me being saved were next to nil, there was no change in my life, I continued to live however I chose to and without a conscience of it......there is NO way I could have lived as I did and still been saved, it just doesn't happen. Having to face the thought that I went all those years knowing about Jesus, believing I WAS saved (that was the scary part) and then coming to the conclusion that if you're saved you are a new creature in Christ.....so if there's no new creature in Christ, what does that most likely mean? It most likely means that you didn't walk away from your Salvation but instead you weren't truly saved in the first place. It's easy to make the claim but just because you profess to be saved, doesn't mean you are...your fruit will tell the truth.
John 10:28-30
1 Corinthians 3:16,17
Romans 8:9
2 Corinthians 1:21
Ephesians 1:13
2 Corinthians 5:5
Once you become saved and truly accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are sealed by the Spirit, nobody can take you away from Him (you can't lose your Salvation) and if you can walk away from your Salvation (knowing what being truly saved means) then you weren't saved in the first place.
Yes, I see that now. Thank you for pointing out where you got the link. I brought this to the attention of the moderators so there's no future confusion.
Yes, I see that now. Thank you for pointing out where you got the link. I brought this to the attention of the moderators so there's no future confusion.
I typically steer clear of this topic due to the controversy. I just wanted a hug! lol!
So glad to be able to clear that confusion up! Thank you!
Regular Member
Is the following verse referencing ETERNAL security? (Sorry if I sound stupid.)
“And I give unto them [ETERNAL LIFE]; and they shall never perish, neither shall [ANY MAN] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and [NO MAN] is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).
“My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)
BTW, my son is now in the 7th grade!
Regular Member
Text: John 3:15-16 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Introduction:
So far, you have answered three questions to help you gain assurance of salvation. In Part One, you studied what God has done so that you might be saved. From Part Two, you examined what you must do to be saved. From Part Three, you noted three biblical evidences of salvation. Yet, another logical question arises which affects your assurance of salvation. That question is, “Can I ever lose my salvation?”
In the above text, you find a promise of God mentioned twice. God has promised “eternal life” or “everlasting life” to those who believe in His Son. Can one who has believed unto salvation ever lose this eternal life God has promised?
Baptists believe that the Scriptures teach the “eternal security” of the Believer. This teaching declares that you can never lose your salvation. Baptists believe that the blood of Christ which was powerful enough to save you is also powerful enough to secure you.
Consider three biblical passages which teach the eternal security of the Believer.
I. Provision of Salvation
Why has a righteous God chosen to save an unrighteous sinner? Examine two verses of Scripture which tell you why. The first verse is found in our text. John wrote, “For God [SO LOVED] the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). Another verse which reveals God’s reason for saving sinners is, “But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). These verses tell you about God’s provision of salvation.
It is God’s provision of love that saves and keeps us. Concerning this love, Paul wrote, “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the [LOVE OF GOD], which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).
According to Romans 8, there are two things which secure your salvation.
A. Love That Secures
This passage tells of a love that secures. “Nothing,” Paul wrote, can “separate us from the love of God. . . .” God’s love is proven through Christ’s death on the cross to provide for the salvation of mankind. It is the inseparable love of God that saves and that secures.
B. Limitations That Secure
From this passage, you learn of limitations that secure your salvation. Nothing– not anything– can separate us from the amazing love of God. Romans 8:38-39 lists ten categories of things which cannot separate us. These limitations which secure us are:
1. death; 2. nor life; 3. nor angels; 4. nor principalities; 5. nor powers; 6. nor things present; 7. nor things to come; 8. nor height; 9. nor depth; 10. nor any other creature.
What can separate us? Our sin cannot, for it is a thing present. Neither can Satan separate us, for he is an angel which has fallen. You cannot even separate yourself, for you are any other creature. Nothing can separate you from God. It is this provision of God’s love that keeps you saved.
II. Protection of Salvation
Because God loves you so much, He protects you. You have been redeemed (or saved) by the precious blood of His own Son. Therefore, you are of great value to Almighty God.
Because He loves and values you, notice how God protects you. John wrote of this protection, “And I give unto them [ETERNAL LIFE]; and they shall never perish, neither shall [ANY MAN] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and [NO MAN] is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).
A. Savior’s Hand
First, the Believer is described as being in the Savior’s hand. Jesus wants you to know that He has you safe and secure in His hand. As He holds on to you, no man, not anyone can take you from His hand. His hand is a place of safety and security.
B. Sovereign Hand
Yet again Jesus assures us of our safety by telling us we are also in the sovereign hand of His Father. In His hand, no man can pluck you out. In Their hands, you are safe and secure for all eternity. In fact, verse 29 teaches what I call the “double eternal security” of the Believer.
It is this protection of salvation which assures you that you can never lose your salvation. You are safe and secure in the hands of the Father and of His Son.
III. Position of Salvation
You are inseparable from God’s love and are protected by the very hand of God. Yet still another verse teaches the security of the Believer. Of this security, John wrote, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God . . .” (1st John 3:1). Salvation places you into the family of God.
This new relationship with God is by birth and by blood.
A. Birth
Jesus spoke of a birth that is a necessity for salvation in John 3. He said, “Ye must be born again.” Of course, this birth is spiritual. It is a result of a true salvation experience. Your physical birth made you the child of your father. Your spiritual birth made you a child of the heavenly Father. You could refuse to claim your earthly father or he could refuse to claim you.
Yet, the fact remains you are still his child. Nothing you or he could ever do would change that. Consequently, your spiritual birth made you a child of God. Your spiritual birth forever settled your position with God. Sin can break your fellowship, but not your relationship with God. You cannot be unborn again, therefore your spiritual birth secures your position with God.
B. Blood
Paul wrote, “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ” (Ephesians 2:13). The blood which flows in your veins establishes your earthly kindred. Your spiritual kinship was permanently settled by the blood of Jesus the moment you believed. Is the blood of Jesus which saved you powerful enough to keep you saved? Yes, it is enough to keep you saved for all eternity.
Can I lose my salvation? Your salvation is secured by God’s provision of love, by the protection of God’s hand, and by the position of salvation. God keeps you in His heart, in His hand, and in His household.
http://www.learnthebible.org/grow_lose_salvation.htm is the link. Thought this was good.
BTW, my son is now in the 7th grade!
Regular Member
This makes it a case of...
Salvation by works, if it is not ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is it not?
Didn't Jesus say: Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Only man takes back a Gift, God does not!
If we have to DO ANYTHING (DOING SOMETHING TO MAINTAIN SOMETHING IS WORK) TO MAINTAIN OUR GIFT Then we "are working" to keep it.
Grace is giving or doing something for someone who does NOT deserve it.
Mercy is the withholding of punishment to those who DO deserve it.
Isn't beautiful how Mercy and Grace contrast each other and how
AWESOME OUR FATHER, HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS.
So if we have to do anything at all, anything to keep from losing that gift
we are working, people do not work to recieve gifts. Gifts are given usually
out of love for someone. Down here there may be other motivations for
giving someone a gift. But with God He tells us what is necessary to recieve
the gift. Once we have it there is nothing to maintain it because God wants
no man boasting about how he is working more than someone else to keep
it. Christ's Sacrifice was all God required and anything else from us would
only be as Filthy Rags to wit:
Isaiah 64:6a But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are as filthy rags.
Then having said that how could we give or maintain any "Righteousness"
on our own that could be worthy before God??????????
THE ANSWER IS "WE CANNOT"
ONCE SAVED IS ALWAYS SAVED!
GOD IS TRUE!
MAN IS A LIAR!!!
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
I hope I'm mistaken on the website, and you weren't serious, because there is only false doctrine on that site. No clarification at all - only lies.
They are included on The Links Page under General on the main RR page.
Inclusion on the links page should not be misconstrued as RR condoning every single word expressed on any particular site. It's practically impossible to track everything that might be added or removed from a particular linked site, especially when there are so many links. This should clear things up for you, this is part of the "Doctrinal Beliefs Statement" for the RR BB:
Link:Article VIII. THE EXTENT OF SALVATION
When an unregenerate person exercises that faith in Jesus Christ which is illustrated and described as such in the New Testament, he passes immediately out of spiritual death into spiritual life, and from the old creation into the new; being justified from all things, accepted before the Father according as Jesus Christ His Son is accepted, loved as Jesus Christ is loved, having his place and portion as linked to Him and one with Him forever. Though the saved one may have occasion to grow in the realization of his blessings and to know a fuller measure of divine power through the yielding of his life more fully to God, he is, as soon as he is saved, in possession of every spiritual blessing and absolutely complete in Jesus Christ, and is therefore in no way required by God to seek a so-called “second blessing,” or a “second work of grace” (John 5:24; 17:23; Acts 13:39; Rom. 5:1; 1 Cor. 3:21–23; Eph. 1:3; Col. 2:10; 1 John 4:17; 5:11–12).
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=9
It should be noted that some scholars believe that OSAS is a NT development, that in the OT it was possible to lose one's salvation because Christ had not come yet. There are OT references to names being blotted out of the Book of Life:
Exodus 32:32-33
But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.The above passages may be why some people do not believe in the OSAS doctrine. However, Christ made it very clear that once we find salvation through Him, our fate is secured:Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
So once a person's name is in the Lamb's Book of Life, it is there for good. And if one's name is not written there, what then?Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.This is a clearcut case, to say that OSAS is inaccurate and that we must maintain our salvation through works is to call Christ a liar!Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Arribamod
You probably should have read further:
The Spirit is telling us in the last days, there will be the very same people we warn about on this website, apostate teachers and their followers.1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11These things command and teach.
It states "depart from the faith", that is, depart from the truth and teach falsehood. Nothing in there says they were saved. Today, we call them cults and false teachers, and say there is no salvation in their teachings, if their teachings are not according to the truth of the gospel in scripture. He gives examples of their teaching, and we know of many more today, which are not in accordance with saving faith.
He also declares you will be a "good minister of Jesus Christ" for pointing these things out to the brethren. That's an awesome promise, my brothers and sisters. Talk about being welcomed into heavenly dwellings!
Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.
Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
Well just so everyone knows, I'm a 16 year old boy who just got saved about 6 months ago. I'm still running strong for the Lord, just got off the "honeymoon" if you all know what I mean. Ever since I've gotten saved, I've been street witnessing in New Orleans for Mardi Gras, as well been to Thunder over Louisville in Kentucky, and the Kentucky Derby to witness. But let me just ask, if someone who had just gotten saved and never went to church. So he wasn't denominational influenced at all, but he read his bible at all times. Do you think he might ever get a notion from reading his bible, that just saying a prayer and getting saved will make everything alright? Well of course not, he will strive to follow the bible and if he ever sinned he would get on his knees and repent. I have to say I do go to church but I'm not denominational influenced. Since I've followed the Lord my life has been so much better. The song amazing grace puts everything perfectly. I once was blind but now I see. And one thing that will always make us correct, is the Holy Spirit baptism!
But for those who say Once Saved Always Saved let me show you something right quick. "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin has reigned to death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:20,21) So thats where a lot of people look for the saying of Once Saved Always Saved. But lets keep reading to Chapter 6 in Romans. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid, How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any long therein?" (Romans 6:1,2) And what of the story of the Prodigal Son? That perfectly shows right there, a story of a backslider. It is possible to backslide from your faith, but finally lets look at one more verse. "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8) The Bible tells us that we must Repent or we shall Perish. We must understand, that when we do sin that is like mutiny to God. And when we do sin, God's wrath abides on us. Please read the scriptures carefully, I don't want someone who is out there to think that it is alright to keep on sinning and not fully living for Christ Jesus and missing the Rapture. When the Lord comes, all brethren in Christ shall see his Glory! The question is now, Are You Ready? Thanks again, its good to see brethren on here sorting out questions and giving answers. Keep on Keeping on.
Taylor
Regular Member
Taylor, So your faith and salvation being completed and going to heaven is based on if you repent of every sin?
I praise God mine is based on being a spotless bride, made white as snow, and waiting for my bridegroom.
No sir/ma'am. But if we keep on sinning without repentance of our sin, are sins go unremitted. We still today have to repent of our sins, if we have committed sin, and we have full knowledge of this mutiny against God then we must. When we sin, we sin with our conscience. When we look at the word conscience, con means with, and science means knowledge. So when we sin with knowledge of our sins, we have to go right back to 1 John 3:8 where it says "For he who sins is of the devil...". So the word "sins" is plural, so that means often or habitually. When we keep sinning and don't watch ourselves, our father isn't God, but the King of Lies, Deceiver, and the Accuser of the Brethren. True we aren't saved by keeping the Law, but by Grace. But what kind of example can we be, or how can we witness the transformation in our life to those who are lost when we are still sinning? We still have to follow the Law, it's not a free ride once we are saved. Jesus says, If you love me, then keep my commandments. When you break his commandments, you must repent.
Taylor
Regular Member
Evangelist16, I would suggest reading Romans. All of it. Until you know it back to front. It will stand you in good stead.
I'll reread Romans for sure Anddra. But there is not thought in mind, from reading my Bible and talking with my Pastor (who is my uncle), that says anything in the Bible where we can say a prayer...then go back to sinning. Saying that we are saved by the blood of the Lamb but it still is okay to sin, is reading the Bible and making false doctrine out of it. Similar to what it says in 2 Peter 2:1,2.
Taylor
Regular Member
To say a prayer and then to continue in sin as before would not be normal for someone who is saved. To put your faith in Jesus and then to fail and repent, fail and repent, and so on is normal for a believer. This is what you will find in Romans. There is not a day goes by but I fail in some way. Thankfully, my dependence is upon one who never fails. There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).
Yeah, it is normal for a believer to fail then repent. I am the same way brother. All I am saying is that if you continue in your sins, without repentance. The sins will keep on piling, and you will be commonly known as a backslider. We even as Christians fall short of the glory of God, and we must still repent.
Taylor
Regular Member
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
