Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Kliska]

acrotinger; you need to read this thread that your posts have been merged into. It covers all the scriptures on OSAS extensively. OSAS is a fact; no sin can separate those that are in Christ, for it is His Righteousness that counts for us, not our own. Sin is destroyed for those in Christ, though we will still commit sinful acts, they are not laid to our charge, in Christ there is no condemnation.

[Nate928]

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Out of curiosity, what does OSAS have to say about this?

[TheRedeemed]

OSAS doesn't apply this far in to revelation. We're well out of the way by then, and since OSAS only applies to the church during the dispensation of the church, OSAS doesn't come into the equation at all.

[Raphael]

I Corinthians 3:13-15

Loss of rewards will occur at the Bema Judgment (II Corinthians 5:10) of the saved, not a loss of salvation.

[iSong6:3]

OSAS doesn't apply this far in to revelation. We're well out of the way by then, and since OSAS only applies to the church during the dispensation of the church, OSAS doesn't come into the equation at all.

Right.

When the Church is gone via the Rapture, Israel's dispensation of law starts up again for her final seven years of Daniel's prophecy.

[dinaljc]

Eternal Security: Part 1
By Dr. Arnold Frutchenbaum

This shall be the first of a series on various aspects of eternal security.

What is eternal security and can a believer lose his/her salvation?[1]

We might explain eternal security like this: “Eternal security is that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart is continued and brought to completion.” This means that once a person has undergone the real experience of salvation, of regeneration, that person cannot commit some sin or cease to believe with the result of a loss of salvation. That which keeps the believer safe and secure is the work of the Holy Spirit and the work of God on his behalf, not his own works.

Let’s look at this issue in greater detail:

1. Salvation Is Not Repeatable – There is not a single case in Scripture that states: this person was saved; he lost his salvation; and then he was re-saved some time later. That concept is nowhere in Scripture, nor is there a single case of someone who was saved, lost and then saved again later, recorded in the Bible.

2. True Salvation Produces Works of Righteousness – True salvation will produce genuine works of righteousness in one’s life. Anyone who has been truly saved will show it with some degree of evidences, although they might be quite small. A believer works because he is saved (Mat. 7:17‑20; Titus 2:11‑12; Jas. 2:14‑24; II Pet. 1:5‑10).

3. Doctrinal Consistency: The Test of True Faith (Col. 1:22‑23; II Jn. 2) – When a person is saved, he may not know that Yeshua (Jesus) was born of a virgin. When he does learn it, he will readily accept it. If he denies or rejects this truth, then perhaps he was never truly saved to begin with. Doctrinal consistency is a test of true faith.

4. Works of the Believer Rewarded (Heb. 6:10) – The believer does not attain his salvation by works. Rather, true salvation will result in works. Salvation itself is not a reward, but it is a free gift received by faith.

5. The Basis of the Exhortations to Godly Living – The exhortations in Scripture for godly living are based upon what God has done, never upon the fear of losing one’s salvation (e.g. Rom 12:1-2; 2 Cor 5:15; Eph 4:1)

6. The Results of Sin in the Believer’s Life – Sin severs one’s fellowship with God (I Jn. 1:6‑7, 9), but does not sever salvation. Once one believes, he has a “family relationship” with God. When one is born physically, he is born into a family and will always be a part of that family. At times, communion and fellowship within that family might become strained and broken because of animosity between members of the family. The same thing is true in the family of God. One may break fellowship because of one’s sin, but he will always remain in that family nonetheless.

7. Persistent Sin May Show a Lack of Conversion – Consistent sin does not show a loss of salvation. If anything, it may show that the person was never saved to begin with. Often people point to an individual saying that he had walked down the aisle and said “he believed on Jesus,” but has never shown the evidence of it. However, walking down the aisle does not mean a person had true saving faith, nor does merely saying that he believed mean he had true saving faith. The question is: “Was he ever really saved to begin with? Was he ever really converted in the true sense of the term?”

8. Perfection Is Not Achieved in This Life – Believers will be sinning for the rest of their lives. If one must reach perfection in order to maintain salvation, then every believer is in trouble. If anyone could have made it to perfection, it would have been the Apostle Paul, and yet he wrote, “I am not yet perfect” (Phil. 3:12‑14).

9. The Difference Between Position and Practice – Paul referred to the Corinthian church positionally as being a sanctified church (I Cor. 1:2). But according to their practice, they are one of the worst churches in the New Testament. There is a difference between position and practice; however, bad practice does not mean that the position has been lost.

10. The Relationship Between Works and Salvation – If works are needed to keep salvation, then salvation is by works. In Romans 4:4‑6 Paul said:

4Now to him that works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6Even as David also pronounced blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, . . .

Galatians 2:21:

I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

And II Timothy 1:9:

. . . who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, . . .


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] This post is a modified version of Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s original Messianic Bible Study. The full version may be obtained here:http://arielc.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?S...Category_Code=

http://arielb.org/archives/710

[Christ4ever777]

I've spoken to several christians and watched a couple of videos on youtube that state that a believer can lose their salvation. Now I'm confused about this issue?

[icebear]

salvation is a free gift, once opened it can't be taken away. nobody can snatch you from the Father's hand, not even yourself.

ignore the garbage, its satan's way of stealing your joy


the idea that one can lose their salvation is straight from the pits of hell

[clemson]

WE BELIEVE that a man remains eternally secure only as long as he perseveres in the faith, continually trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation*(John 15:2,6; Romans 11:22;*I Corinthians 15:1-2; Colossians 1:21-23; I Timothy 4:16; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 6:11-12; Hebrews 10:35-39; I Peter 1:9; I John 2:24-25; Hebrews 3:14).


Is that OSAS or not. I believe in OSAS 100% until after rapture and age of grace, but that doesn't sound like it...

[iSong6:3]

WE BELIEVE that a man remains eternally secure only as long as he perseveres in the faith, continually trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation*(John 15:2,6; Romans 11:22;*I Corinthians 15:1-2; Colossians 1:21-23; I Timothy 4:16; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 6:11-12; Hebrews 10:35-39; I Peter 1:9; I John 2:24-25; Hebrews 3:14).


Is that OSAS or not.

Nope, it's not. See bolded above, it's a salvation up to man and not up to God to maintain. Not *eternally secure*, if the words *eternally* and *secure* have any meaning.

I believe in OSAS 100% until after rapture and age of grace, but that doesn't sound like it...

[Mtown]

I hated to hear this because I like Michael Brown and listen to his radio show everyday. Today however he had a debate on his show against OSAS using verses such as 1 Corinthians 6:8-11

King James Version (KJV)

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

He used some others I can't remember but had weak grounds for what he was saying.

[Steve53]

Dr. Michael Brown argues against OSAS

Maybe he should spend some time here exercising some sound Biblical exegesis.

[gma dolittle]

Paul said NOTHING could take us from God's love..... but we can sin. Do you ever go through a day when you don't get angry? mash your finger and utter something that is not exactly godly? embelish something where you are telling about it? feel road rage? say something in anger at your spouse or children? We all have thought, feelings, slips of the tongue,etc. To Christ these would be sins and take us from him. NO SIN is allowed in heaven. So if we do sin, we must quickly asked forgiveness, not meaning to do it again. Moses struck a rock in anger and disobeyed God, and God refused to let him go into the Holy Land. To God sin in sin... he is no respecter of persons. A liar is equal as a rapist or a murderer. To die with these sins would keep us from heaven. To do these are to disobey God. He knows our every thoughts and feelings, nothing is hid from him. When we get saved, we are given grace, but sin takes the grace from us, but can be restored with forgiveness. And... like Moses.....

[Any Minute]

Paul said NOTHING could take us from God's love..... but we can sin. Do you ever go through a day when you don't get angry? mash your finger and utter something that is not exactly godly? embelish something where you are telling about it? feel road rage? say something in anger at your spouse or children? We all have thought, feelings, slips of the tongue,etc. To Christ these would be sins and take us from him. NO SIN is allowed in heaven. So if we do sin, we must quickly asked forgiveness, not meaning to do it again. Moses struck a rock in anger and disobeyed God, and God refused to let him go into the Holy Land. To God sin in sin... he is no respecter of persons. A liar is equal as a rapist or a murderer. To die with these sins would keep us from heaven. To do these are to disobey God. He knows our every thoughts and feelings, nothing is hid from him. When we get saved, we are given grace, but sin takes the grace from us, but can be restored with forgiveness. And... like Moses.....

I'm a little confused by your post, especially the bolded. Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying.

First you say nothing could take us away from God's love, but then you go on to say that these sins take us from Him and to die with these sins would keep us from heaven.

Which is it, are you talking about a believer sinning or talking about a nonbeliever? The sin of unbelief, not being born again, is the only sin that will keep you out of heaven if you die in that condition.
The *old* man (for believers) unfortunately will continue to sin, until we are glorified.

[gma dolittle]

I'm a little confused by your post, especially the bolded. Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying.

First you say nothing could take us away from God's love, but then you go on to say that these sins take us from Him and to die with these sins would keep us from heaven.

Which is it, are you talking about a believer sinning or talking about a nonbeliever? The sin of unbelief, not being born again, is the only sin that will keep you out of heaven if you die in that condition.
The *old* man (for believers) unfortunately will continue to sin, until we are glorified.

I do apologize for the confusion. Paul said in Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor thing present , nor things to come, nor height,nor depth,nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is Christ Jesus our Lord We have the free will to accept or reject Christ. If we accept, we have the free will to obey him or to disobey him. Only we can take us out of the hands of God.... NOTHING else can!

Paul also said in Romans 3: 10, 23 (10) As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one. (23) For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. I know Paul was talking about the Hebrew/Gentile argument at that time, but it can apply to us today. None of has come up to the glory of God, we all fall short because of sin. I am talking about believers... Notice that Paul also says in Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (15) What then? shall we sin because we are not the law, but under grace? God Forbid. Just because we are saved does not mean we can not sin. Why? because Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Paul also said in II Corinthians 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.II Cor11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his sublity, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ Paul wrote letters to churches (believers) telling them how to live and what not to do so they would not sin. Why did he do that if we can't sin after salvation? He told them to put on the whole armor of God to be able to fight against the wiles of the devil. Why do we need it if our sins don't matter? Ephesians 6th chapter.

I could list many other verses, but I want to close with this: in Revelations when Christ was talking to the seven churches... which represents us.... most of the churches Jesus said, "Never the less I have somewhat against thee..." Those are words I do not want to hear Jesus say about me. I will ask forgiveness when ever I have a thought, feelings, or action contrary to how he wants me to be.

I hope this cleared things us a bit...

[Any Minute]

Thank You for the clarification, gma dolittle. I agree with you that we can and do still sin in the flesh. We do need to seek forgiveness. Sin hurts and can sever our relationship with Him, it has consequences both here and eternal (suffer loss at the bema seat for example).

Interesting that you mention Romans 8:38-39, why do you believe that we have the ability to remove ourselves from the hand of God? Do you not believe in eternal security?

If you recall, Paul starts of the book of Romans by saying he is a servant of Jesus Christ. Some translations say bond-servant, literally means a slave. We are either a slave to sin (our old nature) or a slave to Christ. If to Jesus, then we belong to Him, eternally, and not even we can pry ourselves from His salvation.
As you probably know since you listed several passages from Romans, there are some great truths revealed in the entire chapter of Romans 6:1-23.

[IMSAVED]

I do believe in OSAS but we can lose rewards.....alot of rewards.

[gma dolittle]

Thank You for the clarification, gma dolittle. I agree with you that we can and do still sin in the flesh. We do need to seek forgiveness. Sin hurts and can sever our relationship with Him, it has consequences both here and eternal (suffer loss at the bema seat for example).

Interesting that you mention Romans 8:38-39, why do you believe that we have the ability to remove ourselves from the hand of God? Do you not believe in eternal security?

If you recall, Paul starts of the book of Romans by saying he is a servant of Jesus Christ. Some translations say bond-servant, literally means a slave. We are either a slave to sin (our old nature) or a slave to Christ. If to Jesus, then we belong to Him, eternally, and not even we can pry ourselves from His salvation.
As you probably know since you listed several passages from Romans, there are some great truths revealed in the entire chapter of Romans 6:1-23.

Eternal security? The only eternal security is being Raptured. That I believe in. No, I am sorry, but I don't believe in OSAS. I won't try to convince you that OSAS is not eternal security. I respect your beliefs to believe as you do. I am sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I do not believe Christians should be dogmatic in believing they are the only ones who know the truth.

grandma

[IMSAVED]

Eternal security? The only eternal security is being Raptured. That I believe in. No, I am sorry, but I don't believe in OSAS. I won't try to convince you that OSAS is not eternal security. I respect your beliefs to believe as you do. I am sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I do not believe Christians should be dogmatic in believing they are the only ones who know the truth.

grandma

What do you think of this?
http://www.gotquestions.org/once-sav...ays-saved.html

Question: "Once saved always saved?"

Answer: Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

[LightOfMyLife]

Here are some scriptures that I like as well Ephesians 1:5-14. In this world we are a child of God by receiving the gift of God. John 1:12-13. We have the Holy Spirit living in our hearts. We can not earn our salvation Ephesians 2:8-10.