Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Tron4JC]

Lutheran stance on this issue:

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?...pic_topicID=47

Q: Would it be correct to say that Lutherans teach Perseverance of the Elect, but not Perseverance of the Saints? In other words, a person may have faith at one point in his life but then act in such a way, resisting the grace of God and indulging in sin, that he weakens and ultimately loses that faith. But a person who is among the elect from the foundations of the world, this group obviously known only by God, will ultimately persevere in his faith. Is this accurate?

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A: While we do not use the phrase all that regularly, perhaps to avoid confusion with the "perseverance of the saints" dogma among Calvinists, we rightly hold to the teaching on the perseverance of the elect. You are correct and have stated the concept quite well. Passages like Matthew 24: 22, 24 serve as the basis of this teaching, as does the very definition of the term elect or chosen, as used in Ephesians 1 and elsewhere.



http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?...m_itemID=15094

Q: Brothers: After asking my question, I did some searches for the answers that you provided before. Total Depravity – Lutheran’s and Calvinists agree. Unconditional Election - Lutheran’s and Calvinists agree. Limited Atonement – Calvinists believe that Jesus Christ died generally and specifically for the Elect only. Lutherans believe that Jesus Christ died generally for all and specifically to the elect. Irresistible grace – Calvinists believe that there is a “hidden call” to the elect only through the Holy Spirit that is not resistible, to the non-elect the call is resistible. Lutherans believe that the call in general is resistible. Perseverance of the Saints: Both Lutherans and Calvinists believe that only the elect that have been predestined to life will have eternal life. Calvinists saying “You must believe to the end to be saved, but the elect will believe to the end”. Is this a correct summary of the Lutheran position ? I know that there are many other differences but this is a start.

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A: Yes this this basically correct. A few of the points could have a little more comment.

"Total Depravity – Lutherans and Calvinists agree." Yes this is correct. Both agree on the devastating nature of the fall and that man by nature has no power to aid in his conversions.

"Unconditional Election - Lutheran’s and Calvinists agree." Yes. both agree that election to salvation is by grace. In Lutheranism the German term for election is Gnadenwahl, election by grace--there is no other kind.

"Limited Atonement – Calvinists believe that Jesus Christ died generally and specifically for the Elect only. Lutherans believe that Jesus Christ died generally for all and specifically to the elect. " We would not put the second sentence quite this way. Christ's death was sufficient for all and offered for all. It was sufficient for all. God the Father accepted it for all. It is valid for all, but only those who apply that payment to themselves by faith will benefit from it. Those who do not have faith forfeit the blessing that was won for them. Though Christ truly gained it for them, they squander the blessing by unbelief. The fault for this rests with them, not with God.

"Irresistible grace – Calvinists believe that there is a “hidden call” to the elect only through the Holy Spirit that is not resistible, to the non-elect the call is resistible. Lutherans believe that the call in general is resistible." We cannot separate the Holy Spirit from the gospel. He works through the gospel, not merely along side of it. Those who reject the gospel are also resisting and rejecting the Holy Spirit as Scripture plainly says. The Spirit is not offered only to the elect.

""Perseverance of the Saints: Both Lutherans and Calvinists believe that only the elect that have been predestined to life will have eternal life. Calvinists saying “You must believe to the end to be saved, but the elect will believe to the end”. "My question is what is your position on eternal security. It would seem to me that if salvation was in the left hand kingdom, all of grace, perserverance would also be of grace, otherwise you would be mixing Law and Gospel." We usually prefer to use the word "preservation" rather than "perseverance" because it more clearly states that we are preserved by God's gracious actions, not by persevering through our efforts. The Holy Spirit preserves us through the gospel.

[FunMudder]

This is where I get hung up:

{KJV}Mar 3:28 (Jesus speaking to the pharisees) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

{NIV}Mar 3:28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
Mar 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Because our Lord was speaking to the men that were educated in the scriptures, to people that should know better than to call good evil, that honestly makes me believe you can throw your salvation away.
By already knowing the truth, and then willfully turning your back on it, then you most certainly are in danger of losing your salvation. It's not a salvation by works thing, its an obediance thing.

I think of a relative of mine. When younger he was a Bible thumpin' scripture loving young man.
Somewhere along the lines he 'got educated' and now regularly, loudly, denies Christ or the existance of any God.
Do I want to believe "Once Saved Always Saved?" of course I do! Especially for his sake. My inner voice tells me its just not so.
The Lord gave us the free will to choose Him, and I believe we have the free will to reject that salvation too.

I could be wrong, but then, I will just keep abiding in Him and not risk being a branch that was once alive but then whithered away to be gathered and burned up

[Tron4JC]

This is where I get hung up:

{KJV}Mar 3:28 (Jesus speaking to the pharisees) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

{NIV}Mar 3:28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
Mar 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Because our Lord was speaking to the men that were educated in the scriptures, to people that should know better than to call good evil, that honestly makes me believe you can throw your salvation away.
By already knowing the truth, and then willfully turning your back on it, then you most certainly are in danger of losing your salvation. It's not a salvation by works thing, its an obediance thing.

I think of a relative of mine. When younger he was a Bible thumpin' scripture loving young man.
Somewhere along the lines he 'got educated' and now regularly, loudly, denies Christ or the existance of any God.
Do I want to believe "Once Saved Always Saved?" of course I do! Especially for his sake. My inner voice tells me its just not so.
The Lord gave us the free will to choose Him, and I believe we have the free will to reject that salvation too.

I could be wrong, but then, I will just keep abiding in Him and not risk being a branch that was once alive but then whithered away to be gathered and burned up

Lutherans would put it this way- when we as believers despair about whether we are saved or not we are reminded that God works in us and is able to keep us. That is to remind us in Christ, there is no condemnation, and it is God who keeps us.

On the other hand, if we choose to live a life of lawlessness, the warning passages become relevent in that the possibility of falling away again into utterly unbelief and being devoid of repentance is very real and one can in the end be lost because of that.

Paradoxes do exist in Scriptures (not contradictions, mind you).

Salvation all of God, damnation all of man.

[Chris]

OSAS is a true Biblical concept. Here are a few articles to help shine the light on this confusing topic. You can also go to www.GraceThruFaith.com and type OSAS in the search box to find a good list of articles dealing with OSAS and the scriptures. God bless and Enjoy!!

OSAS, The Whole Story
Selah » Eternal Security
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/...he-whole-story


and...............


Union Or Fellowship?
Ask a Bible Teacher

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-...-or-fellowship


and...................


OSAS And The Unfaithful Servant
Ask a Bible Teacher

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-...ithful-servant


and..............


Is Our Security Eternal?
Ask a Bible Teacher

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-...curity-eternal

[Tio-Peregrino]

I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this. Most of the verses I find have the word "if" in them. On my wed night bible study we have been going through John 15:6, and digging into it's meaning.

John 15:6 (New King James Version)

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

I would like to hear from both sides of the discussion we can or cannot loose our salvation. I will try to play devils advocate from both points of view. I am hoping that someone has the answers I am looking for. I am honestly seeking the truth, so please don't think I am trying to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, just feeling convicted to find out about this.

Hope this makes sense to someone other than me

I agree the verse can seem confusing, but we can't read it alone without the balance of Scripture. A lot of things could be posited, and have been, by taking a verse here and a verse there and running with it. I'm not saying that is what you're doing, though. But we must look at the rest of Scripture.

The Messiah also told us that we don't choose Him...but that He chose us (John 6)...also He states that none of us whom He has chosen shall be taken from His hand (John 10). In verse 28 we see the same Greek word used of the rapture.

Personally, I don't believe it makes any sense--and I don't see any Biblical basis for--the loss of salvation. When we read about the Lamb's Book of Life in Revelation, and those whose names were never written in it...I believe it's just that. This is because God knows the end from the beginning, and knew the elect before the foundations of the earth. The loss of salvation would mean that He knew them...but then there were some who He thought He knew, but didn't really know??? Either they were elect, or not. Either He knew His Spirit would reside in them...or not. Paul writes about the Spirit sealing the Believer for the Day of Redemption in Ephesians 4, if memory serves...not till they fall away.

Just my two cents.

[Surrender]

It is our lack of understanding when Scripture appears contradictive. Maybe this will be helpful...

1 Thessalonians 5:23
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This confirms that man is a triune being, just as God is a triune being. It shows we are made of three parts (body, soul, spirit), yet we are one. We are made in His image.

The body is visible and physical. The spirit (pneuma) is breath. The soul (psuche) is heart, mind, will, and emotions (i.e., life).

At the moment of confession, the spirit is reborn and can never be “unborn.” This becomes a past event. The body looks forward to the resurrection. This is a future event. The soul must work out his salvation with fear and trembling. “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). This is a present and ongoing event which should progress after spiritual rebirth.

The believer’s new body given at the resurrection will not die:

“Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angles; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” (Luke 20:36).

The spirit is reborn by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing else:

“And (the Philippians jailer) brought them out, and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house’” (Acts 16:30-31).

One can do nothing to earn this salvation. It is a gift from God.

However, after your spirit is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, you must take part in cooperation with the Holy Spirit to sanctify yourself:

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls” (James 1:21).

James is speaking to believers here and he tells them they must do “works” to save their souls. These works above are getting rid of the sin in their lives and living by the word they have received.

The "saving of one’s soul" does not determine whether one enters heaven, but it does determine ones reward in heaven. Faithfulness to Jesus leads to rewards. Unfaithfulness to Jesus leads to loss of rewards.

I hope this helps a little.

May the God of peace sanctify you wholly for our King is coming!

[hindsfeet]

I agree the verse can seem confusing, but we can't read it alone without the balance of Scripture. A lot of things could be posited, and have been, by taking a verse here and a verse there and running with it. I'm not saying that is what you're doing, though. But we must look at the rest of Scripture.

The Messiah also told us that we don't choose Him...but that He chose us (John 6)...also He states that none of us whom He has chosen shall be taken from His hand (John 10). In verse 28 we see the same Greek word used of the rapture.

Personally, I don't believe it makes any sense--and I don't see any Biblical basis for--the loss of salvation. When we read about the Lamb's Book of Life in Revelation, and those whose names were never written in it...I believe it's just that. This is because God knows the end from the beginning, and knew the elect before the foundations of the earth. The loss of salvation would mean that He knew them...but then there were some who He thought He knew, but didn't really know??? Either they were elect, or not. Either He knew His Spirit would reside in them...or not. Paul writes about the Spirit sealing the Believer for the Day of Redemption in Ephesians 4, if memory serves...not till they fall away.

Just my two cents.

Rev. 3:1-5 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. [2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. [3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. [4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. [5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

[hindsfeet]

This is where I get hung up:

{KJV}Mar 3:28 (Jesus speaking to the pharisees) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

{NIV}Mar 3:28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
Mar 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Because our Lord was speaking to the men that were educated in the scriptures, to people that should know better than to call good evil, that honestly makes me believe you can throw your salvation away.
By already knowing the truth, and then willfully turning your back on it, then you most certainly are in danger of losing your salvation. It's not a salvation by works thing, its an obediance thing.

I think of a relative of mine. When younger he was a Bible thumpin' scripture loving young man.
Somewhere along the lines he 'got educated' and now regularly, loudly, denies Christ or the existance of any God.
Do I want to believe "Once Saved Always Saved?" of course I do! Especially for his sake. My inner voice tells me its just not so.
The Lord gave us the free will to choose Him, and I believe we have the free will to reject that salvation too.

I could be wrong, but then, I will just keep abiding in Him and not risk being a branch that was once alive but then whithered away to be gathered and burned up

That's how I feel as well funmudder. Salvation is a free gift that we can never "lose" but we sure as heck can turn our back on it or walk away from it. I did. I walked away from God after being saved about a year when I was a teenager. I know that I was saved without a doubt and when I walked away no one had to tell me that I wasn't saved any longer because the Holy Spirit already had shown me this. But then I came back to the Lord, came back to my first Love and repented of my sins and I was accepted. God is SO good.

[jelaine]

Wow, first off, PRAISE God, He led me to His people! secondly, from what I have read, in the Bible there are things lost in christianese doctrines that no one teaches anymore, on Election, sancitifcation, predestination, forknowledge .... all too big of words, but here are some references to go look up in the word .... Paul in one the epistles says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" don't work FOR it, but work it out .... and also in the OT and NT that God knows who are His Nahum 1:7 AND 2 Tim 2:19 .... Jesus said My sheep hear My voice and follow me.... they will by no means follow a stranger ..... but those refs are

1 Thess 1:14
Coll 3:12
1 Peter 1:2
2 Thess 2:13
Eph 1:4
2 Pet 1:10
Rom 8:29-30

[Zaphnathpaaneah]

Once sealed by the Holy Spirit..

what man can remove this seal? no man

Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Cor.1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

It is the sealing by the Holy Spirit made me understand this issue. I don't think there's anywhere in the Bible that states someone was "unsealed" and then lost.

My salvation doesn't depend on me. If it did, I'd be a failure. It's all about the CROSS.

Thank the LORD!!!!!!!!!!

[AnotherOldGuy]

That's how I feel as well funmudder. Salvation is a free gift that we can never "lose" but we sure as heck can turn our back on it or walk away from it.

I gotta disagree.

You may feel that way based on what most churches teach about salvation, but that is not scriptural.

There is no scriptural example of anyone "in Christ" who left. There are scriptural examples of those who 'followed' Jesus and left. Those people were not saved.

I wasn't saved any longer because the Holy Spirit already had shown me this

Therefore it is likely that your first experience was an 'observer' type thing to give you something to think about later.

came back to my first Love and repented of my sins

That's what I mean about church teaching. One does not 'repent of sins'. One repents - period. It's not about sin - it's about surrendering to God. It is the submission of our mindset, our thoughts and our beliefs to those of the Lord.

[AnotherOldGuy]

Paul in one the epistles says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" don't work FOR it, but work it out ....

That passage is not applicable to this topic.

[Biblenuggetlady]

That's how I feel as well funmudder. Salvation is a free gift that we can never "lose" but we sure as heck can turn our back on it or walk away from it. I did. I walked away from God after being saved about a year when I was a teenager. I know that I was saved without a doubt and when I walked away no one had to tell me that I wasn't saved any longer because the Holy Spirit already had shown me this. But then I came back to the Lord, came back to my first Love and repented of my sins and I was accepted. God is SO good.

We all stumble, but that doesn't mean that had you died, you would have gone to hell. You said, "I know I was saved without a doubt" then "the Holy Spirit" showed you that you were not saved any longer. Untrue, either your conscience was conicting you, the enemy was making you believe you had fallen so far you could never "get back in" or you were never saved to begin with-which I don't believe, based on what you have said- is true.

If that were the case, that we lose and regain or salvation over and over-Jesus would have to be sacraficed for your sins over and over again, each time you are "saved", but he died once for sin. When you become saved, you have died with Him and are born again, a new creature. You will still have ramifications from your sins here in this life, but you will not lose your salvation.

A few verses:

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling (this word is aptaistos it doesn't mean you'll never sin-we are all sinners, but you will not remain in a constant state of sin or an apostate), and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1 John 2:1-2 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Biblenuggetlady]

there is the "if" I am talking about. It seems to be conditional.

Human nature, as people it is natural for us to understand...how can anything be free? There has to be a catch.

The John 15:6 verse you mentioned with "if"'...

This chapter is talking about the root (Jesus) the branches (believers in the church-or a hypocrite in the church or the professing, not the possessing) and the fruit (that that they bring forth when they are being fed by the root-or fruitless if they are not supported by the root).

If we do not abide in Christ, His root supporting us, then we can do nothing, that is the message. Hypocrites may look like a branch, but without the root, they wither and die for lack of sap, (Holy Spirit) and cannot bear any fruit.


We all know this verese, John 3:16....but what God is saying is, that He, God the Father, loved the world (people) so much, that He gave and sacrificed what He loved the most, His own son, Jesus who died and shed His Holy blood for the atonement of the sins of men. Whoever THEREFORE (here would be "THE IF") will accept the sacraficial Lamb, Jesus Christ as Savior to "at-one-ment" you to the Father, shall not be condemed to death, but have everlasting life...

Many people stop there, BUT here is the most "dangerous" part of that verse in 18 is: "he that believes not, IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he believed not in the name of the only begotten son of God. That is a pretty powerful message to give when you share the Gospel with someone, "What I have to tell you is the most serious and dangerous statement you will ever hear, are you ready? Give them the above message from John 3:16 and then say, NOW that you have heard IF you do not believe, you are condemned because you can't say, I never knew." That verse is SO powerful, yet I think it is taken too lightly at times, splashed on a piece of cardboard at a sporting event...but they leave off the "caution" that came with it.

[BloodoftheLamb]

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

[AnotherOldGuy]

e. With fear and trembling: Paul’s idea is not that we should live our Christian lives with a constant sense of fear and terror, but that we should live with a fear of failing to work out your own salvation.http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/davi.../sg/Phl_2.html

No. That is not correct - not even close.

(Phil 2:12) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

To start with, the greek does not say "with fear and trembling". It says "in the midst of fear and trembling". What fear and trembling?

(Phil 1:27) Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

(Phil 1:28) and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.

They shouldn't let their fear paralyze them, they should continue to make use of their salvation by allowing God to work through them.

(Phil 2:13) for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


Paul says that he has been persecuted for Christ. And even though they are being persecuted, they should "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus". Each should "look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others."


(Phil 2:8) And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

(Phil 2:17) Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.

Jesus set the example. Paul was doing the same. He expected the Philippians (really, all Christians) to do God's work regardless of the physical consequences.

That poorly translated verse has probably been misapplied more than any other. It has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with God's expectations of His people.

[LaMontre]

I am asking because I am not able to find defining scripture that goes either way on this. Most of the verses I find have the word "if" in them. On my wed night bible study we have been going through John 15:6, and digging into it's meaning.

John 15:6 (New King James Version)

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Yes, as I see it, that is directly tied to this;
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

At the time Jesus was speaking in John 15, only natural branches could be said to "continue" or abide in the vine, or tree.

One could also quote this passage;
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Would you consider such a one to have ever actually been saved??

Perhaps, but perhaps not;
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth <---a continual verb) on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is a certain amount of.....permanence in Jesus words here.

I would like to hear from both sides of the discussion we can or cannot loose our salvation. I will try to play devils advocate from both points of view. I am hoping that someone has the answers I am looking for. I am honestly seeking the truth, so please don't think I am trying to put a stumbling block in front of anyone, just feeling convicted to find out about this.


Hope this makes sense to someone other than me

Obviously there is a way that a person can seem to us to be a believer, and then fall away as is stated in Matthew 13. But, according to the John 6 passage, it is simply that they gave perhaps a mental ascent to the truth, and were never really called by God.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It seems inescapable to me, that if God called you, you were predestined to be glorified.

[TheWorkman]

I gotta disagree.

You may feel that way based on what most churches teach about salvation, but that is not scriptural.

There is no scriptural example of anyone "in Christ" who left. There are scriptural examples of those who 'followed' Jesus and left. Those people were not saved.



Therefore it is likely that your first experience was an 'observer' type thing to give you something to think about later.




That's what I mean about church teaching. One does not 'repent of sins'. One repents - period. It's not about sin - it's about surrendering to God. It is the submission of our mindset, our thoughts and our beliefs to those of the Lord.

Agreed.
To make a remark to "hindsfeet" post. Salvation is not gained by good works (Eph. 2:8-9): "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5) If salvation is not gained by our works, then how can it be lost by our works? Bad behavior, even the kind Arminians argue is sufficient for salvific lass, can no more cause us to lose eternal life than good behavior can help us to obtain it.
Like the gift of physical life, after eternal life is recieved it cannot be given away. Only God has the power to reclaim it, and His character guarantees that He will never renege on His promise. The gift of salvation (Rom 6:23) is a present possession (John 5:24), and Gods' gifts cannot be retracted (Rom 11:29).

[Biblenuggetlady]

We are saved forever the moment we believe and with the immediate indwelling--GOD'S SEAL.. which is nonremoveable!!

That's right Sing4Him...we are like swimming suits, once bought and paid for, no returns are allowed. All sales are final...Jesus said on the cross-"teleio" The debt is is paid in full. The Holy Spirit is our seal until our redemption, not just between sins. Praise the Lord!

[mistertwisty]

At the time Jesus was speaking in John 15, only natural branches could be said to "continue" or abide in the vine, or tree.

Interesting, I am surprised (and somewhat ambarrassed ) that we missed this in the observation of this verse.

Likewise the verses from Matthew are helpful and remind me of 1 John 2:19 ;

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.