And I'm living proof!!!Originally Posted by Sing4Him
(you sound like me!!)
any seal placed by God is unremovable
Yes
No
And I'm living proof!!!
any seal placed by God is unremovable
Lookin'up,redemption soon
Yes, OSAS!! Jesus said that NO ONE can snatch us out of His hand- that NO ONE includes you!!
Again, I stated this in an earlier post- I don't believe we are to base our beliefs on experience. However, we can judge our experience by the truth. That being said, I once was off in sin- backsliding- BADLY!Shamefully!
So bad that the Holy Spirit kept nagging me to stop- I mean I just could't make Him stop! I even told God to just leave me alone so I could enjoy my sin!!!
Can you believe that! And He wouldn't. He just kept right on loving me and whispering to my heart to stop what I was doing. UGHHHHHHH! His love broke me! His love compelled me!
His persistance overwhelmed me!! I was still saved, I was still His- I could not unborn myself- I could not buy myself back, I could not even snatch myself out of His hand, and I PTL for that
Actually, I can relate to your story. I have done the same thing, and even wished at the time I didnt know the truth, but I did, and God didnt give up on me. I thought about Hell and thought about the torture that would wait for me if I didnt know. I would repent, and come back. I am ashamed of some of my past, and I wish I could change it so it would have been pleasing to God, but, I cant, so I have to rely on the faithfulness of the Lord and His saving grace, put that behind me and move forward now.
One of my favorite stories in the bible is about the Prodigal Son.
Amen!! The Lord used that story to bring me back to Himself once. I'm ashamed to say I backslid more than that
Last edited by Racheal59; November 13th, 2007 at 06:06 AM.
:X
Last edited by Racheal59; November 13th, 2007 at 06:09 AM.
Rachel59,
You shared you watch some so called church shows on tv etc. I share always usher Discernment, and one of many red flage is to watch their fingers(Hands) signs etc. I personally don't even like to watch tv anymore, and I am so thankful for the Holy bible KJV... I learn something new each, and every time I read it, and listen to it out Loud!
Proverbs 6:13
He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
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King Jesus Christ Is LORD.AMEN.
I share always usher Discernment(another red flag is when they attempt to bring attention to their name,self! I make sure not to share about me! It's not about me, All the attention, and Glory is always unto Almighty God...
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The Miraculous Rapture is Coming. Repent, and Dont Look Back! Remember Lots Wife.
Repent,To change ones mind.To turn from sin.
Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye,for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 6:12
And they went out,and preached that men should repent.
Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay. but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Revelation 2:21
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication,and she repented not.
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
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Luke 17:32
Remember Lot's wife.
Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended. but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind,and reaching forth unto those things which are before.
Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith. but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
After all Remember what happened to Lots Wife! Keep both hands on the Plow!
Genesis 19:26
But his wife looked back from behind him,and she became a pillar of salt.
Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him,No man,having put his hand to the plough,and looking back,is fit for the kingdom of God.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers, but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mark 11:25-26
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any, that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Now is the Time to Persevere, and look forward to Jesus Christ, do not turn back to the old life you Left Behind.
Last edited by Isaiah41913; November 3rd, 2007 at 04:30 PM.
Racheal,
Another explanation for Rev 3:5 is that is a litote: (from dictionary.com)
In rhetoric, litotes is a figure of speech in which a speaker, rather than making a certain claim, denies its opposite; for example, rather than call a person attractive, one might say she's "not too bad to look at". Litotes can be used to weaken a statement — "It's bad, but it's O.K." can be seen as self-contradictory, but one can weaken the first part using litotes, producing "It's not good, but it's O.K.", which is a reasonable statement. Conversely, litotes can be used as a form of understatement, strengthening or emphasizing a statement, as in the first example above. The interpretation of litotes thus depends on context, including cultural context.
I got this from another on this site- can't remember their name- but it was very insightful.
Regular Member
I love you, am not debating and mean no offence. My opinion is just that, an opinion. I could very possibly be wrong, and if I am, please help me.I've never worried about losing my salvation. Every breath I breathe I breathe for my saviour. I do believe my fate is sealed (favorably) That said, I believe that careful scrutiny of the word shows that a person can turn away... and I won't be judge as to whether or not they were ever truly saved.
Two sentences I pray nearly every day, and sometimes many times a day is "Lord, Your grace is sufficient for me", and, "There but for the grace of God go I".
Based on the following scriptures, I simply agreed with the previous thread posted by Tall Timbers.
My prayer is that everyone would be saved. God never takes away our choice. That's way some people get saved much later in life. Although he never gives up on us and makes every attempt to draw us. Look at Adam and Eve. They made a choice which resulted in spiritual death. God gave them clear instructions of what not to do and they chose otherwise. Human beings are free moral agents. That is what makes it so beautiful about you, you with your own free will have chosen to commit to God for now and all eternity. You made that decision, He didn't make it for you. But always remember you can always choose otherwise. If you want. That's why the enemy fights us so hard. Because we made the decision to break rank with him and change citizenship. He is the one who tries to control and manipulate people. We can remind him that we have made our choice for JESUS.
Even Christ our Lord had a choice.
That is why I am so grateful. Because He sacrificed and went all the way to the end and defeated satan.
Yet, we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. With that said, we can have as much or as little of Him as we want.
Romans 11
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4 is talking about BELIEVERS.
Yet, even in my attempts to do the following scriptures, I sometimes miss it and I am not practicing sin. But because I make the decision to continue in Christ I am eternally saved.
2 Peter 1:9-11
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Think on what Paul is saying here though. He is not saying that individual salvation will be cut off. If he were, he himself could not have been saved, because then the natural branches being cut off, could not be graft in again. But they can be according to the very next verse:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Pauls point throughout is that the grace of God is always extended to Israel. He is simply stating the possibility of the gentiles finding themselves in the same situation as them. And if we understand why Israel is in the position they are in (because of unbelief) we understand the only way we can be found in that same condition.
Then the question becomes, "Can I stop believing?" That seems an impossiblility, which brings me to your next reference.
This is not a reference that says we can fall away as many believe. On first blush it certainly does seem that way. But the truth is these Israelites believe they have an option, that they actually do not have. They were under severe persecution and believed that they could simply return to keeping the law, and await a better time to repent and believe (which is quite impossible).Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
However, if you believe that this passage refers to the ability to lose ones salvation, then you also believe that once one does lose it, they can never repent again (It is impossible....if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance). Do you then, believe such a one to be eternally condemned?
If so, how do you judge one to be in such a condition of having possessed eternal salvation once, and then having lost it eternally? Do they have some sign that distinguishes them from any other (simply) lost person?
Obviously we would have no reason to try and do for such a one, what this scripture commands:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
I mean, the question has to be answered, "How do I know when I have gone too far?" Because if it is up to me to maintain my own salvation (as your next statement suggests) then I need to have a clear understanding of how to do that.
So you maintain your own salvation, even though you obtained it by grace through faith?Yet, even in my attempts to do the following scriptures, I sometimes miss it and I am not practicing sin. But because I make the decision to continue in Christ I am eternally saved.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
You can't have it both ways.
Grace and peace.
That was probably one of the best explanations of OSAS, in less than 1 page, I've seen.Think on what Paul is saying here though. He is not saying that individual salvation will be cut off. If he were, he himself could not have been saved, because then the natural branches being cut off, could not be graft in again. But they can be according to the very next verse:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Pauls point throughout is that the grace of God is always extended to Israel. He is simply stating the possibility of the gentiles finding themselves in the same situation as them. And if we understand why Israel is in the position they are in (because of unbelief) we understand the only way we can be found in that same condition.
Then the question becomes, "Can I stop believing?" That seems an impossiblility, which brings me to your next reference.
This is not a reference that says we can fall away as many believe. On first blush it certainly does seem that way. But the truth is these Israelites believe they have an option, that they actually do not have. They were under severe persecution and believed that they could simply return to keeping the law, and await a better time to repent and believe (which is quite impossible).
However, if you believe that this passage refers to the ability to lose ones salvation, then you also believe that once one does lose it, they can never repent again (It is impossible....if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance). Do you then, believe such a one to be eternally condemned?
If so, how do you judge one to be in such a condition of having possessed eternal salvation once, and then having lost it eternally? Do they have some sign that distinguishes them from any other (simply) lost person?
Obviously we would have no reason to try and do for such a one, what this scripture commands:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
I mean, the question has to be answered, "How do I know when I have gone too far?" Because if it is up to me to maintain my own salvation (as your next statement suggests) then I need to have a clear understanding of how to do that.
So you maintain your own salvation, even though you obtained it by grace through faith?
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
You can't have it both ways.
Grace and peace.
Thank you, but I must give credit where credit is due. It is simply the benefit of having read (literally) 70 gozillion threads on this topic, right here on RR, over the last 4-5 years.
Dear Friend,
We're lost at sea. No land in sight. We're guilty of mutiny. We turned on our captain, the only One Who knows the way, and we've taken control of the vessel ourselves.
Suddenly a storm comes up and a huge tidal wave blasts against our ship and completely destroys it. People all around us are screaming, gasping for breath, frantically grasping for anything to save them.
Dead bodies are all around us. We feel ourselves getting weaker and weaker. We're dying. We see nothing to hold to. No life preservers. Therefore, in a determined but futile effort to survive, we cling to each other. Our desperation means nothing. Sincerity means nothing. Pretense means nothing. All of our fleshly efforts mean nothing. All hope is a lie. We have a death grip on each other.
Then, in the midst of the panic, just as I'm about to go under for the last time, I hear someone call my name. He says, "I love you. I'm here to save you.I don't ask for any explanation as to how He's going to do it. I don't consult with anyone else as to the authenticity of the voice I hear. In my desperation, I let go of the other drowning people and surrender to my Savior.
He takes hold of me. He embraces me. I embrace Him. I don't have to fight to survive anymore. I can breathe freely now. He's holding me. He loves me. I love Him. I'm His. He's mine. I'm being saved because He's saving me. I don't want to be unsaved.
The story of the shipwreck is to illustrate what has happened to us spiritually. My clinging to Jesus doesn't save me. He saves me. My understanding of Scripture doesn't save me. He saves me. My persuasive arguments don't save me. He saves me. My good deeds and righteous acts don't save me. He saves me!
I don't have to go through life wondering if I'll go to Heaven one minute and Hell the next, depending on how well I perform. I simply accept what He has done. My dependence is upon my Savior, not my own efforts.
What a glorious miracle! I'm being saved! Not because of me but because of Him! It's His work, not mine. My heart is filled with gratitude and in His strength, I resist temptation, seek first His Kingdom, and serve Him. I do these things not in order to get to Heaven or to prove I'm saved. I do them because He's saved me and is saving me. I'm not duty bound, I'm love free!
Hope this will be of help.
Love,
Bob McLeod
ww.RealityRoad.org
Member
LaMontre and Bob, those were BOTH excellent!!!!!
Regular Member
I love you and this was a great conversation. Thank you so much for the insight. I will give careful attention to your responses. In the meantime, it is not expedient for me to keep it going.
Last edited by Born2worshipHim; November 7th, 2007 at 04:32 AM.
Member
Sorry, I can't let this go. As far as the preceding paragraph, and the underlined parts, nothing could be further from the truth. I hear this in my own local church and cringe every time. If you believe this, do yourself a favor and read Luther's Magnum Opus, The Bondage of the Will. We are born slaves to sin. It is precisely our "will" that is enslaved to sin. We cannot of our own volition believe the Gospel. We must be born again before we can believe it. Every person who is saved is saved exactly as Lydia. God opened her heart to believe and He opens our hearts to believe. According to Ephesians 1, He chose us who would be saved before the world was created. It is the Lord who opens our hearts to believe the Gospel and He will never close it. There is no "choice" on our part to make as far as salvation is concerned. When the Lord opens our hearts to believe the Gospel, we simply learn that Christ has already paid the price for our sins and we are saved through that belief. That's the good news of the gospel. We are not saved because "you with your own free will have chosen to commit to God for now and all eternity." That is very far from a Biblical view of New Testament salvation. As Jesus told His Disciples, you didn't choose Me, I chose you.God never takes away our choice. That's way some people get saved much later in life. Although he never gives up on us and makes every attempt to draw us. Look at Adam and Eve. They made a choice which resulted in spiritual death. God gave them clear instructions of what not to do and they chose otherwise. Human beings are free moral agents. That is what makes it so beautiful about you, you with your own free will have chosen to commit to God for now and all eternity. You made that decision, He didn't make it for you. But always remember you can always choose otherwise. If you want.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. By grace thru faith we are saved. It doesn't say by grace thru force we are saved. God gives us the grace to be able to hear/understand the gospel and believe, but He does not make the choice for us, we must choose Him. That is love. Love cannot be forced. Love must be a choice.
Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Salt of the Earth(As the Wise Born Again New Creatures who Rapture)
The Salt that Lost Savor(As the Foolish) Revelation 3:16
Cast Out(Tribulation)Trodden under Foot of Men.
In the World, but Not of the World!
1 John 2:15-17
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof. but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
After the Rapture many will wake up, and finally get really saved during the Tribulation! The Tribulation will make the foolish, Wise...
Member
Goinghome, give me one passage of Scripture in the New Testament that says that "we must choose Him"? Where in the world do you believe that I'm saying that anyone is "forced" to believe the Gospel? Belief isn't something that can be forced.Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. By grace thru faith we are saved. It doesn't say by grace thru force we are saved. God gives us the grace to be able to hear/understand the gospel and believe, but He does not make the choice for us, we must choose Him. That is love. Love cannot be forced. Love must be a choice.
Before we start this, what is your position? I believe that we do have a choice, we either choose Christ, or the world (sin, death, hell). What do you believe?
I ask because belief has to be one of those two things, we either choose by free will to believe on Christ, or (the calvinist position) God predestines us and makes us believe without our free will (which is force, not free will) to believe.
We are all predestined. But some believe predestination does not include our being able to choose.
Member
gh, for me, in all honesty, this discussion is kind of surreal. Yes, I'm a Calvinist, to the core, by choice and not by teaching. So tell me, when God opened Lydia's heart to believe the Gospel, was He "forcing" salvation on her?
