Purgatory? "outer darkness"? Heaven or Hell ?

[cheymat]

I just got finished reading Charles Stanley's book Eternal Security and in one Chapter of the book he describes the "outer darkness" in Mat 25:30 which reads- And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To be in the "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God, but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority. (pg 127)

Now this of course is the parable of the Unfaithful servant. However i have always believed that this is a description of Hell because of the "outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth" part. He cites other verses in reference to this as well. Such as Mat 8:12 & Mat 22:13

and he goes on to say that

The reason there will be gnashing of teeth by those who find themselves in this position becomes obvious once we eliminate some confusion over the phrase "gnashing of teeth." This figure of speech does not symbolize pain as many have thought.

And he cites Acts 7:54 to back up his claim.

Now I believe in OSAS and of course this book is a book that is for it, and truth be told it makes ALOT of sense. But this is the first time ive ever heard "outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth" explained like this. Has anyone else? Or did i just not pay any attention when this was being taught to me at some point?

[acceptedintheBeloved]

If I recall rightly, it is my understanding that Stanley applies this verse (Matthew 25:30, and others like it - Matthew 8:11-12; Matthew 22:13 [See Matthew 22:1-13NASB]; Matthew 24:51; Luke 13:28-29) to the Church, but it doesn't apply there. It applies to Israel (in relation to the millennial kingdom, at Christ's Second Coming; the "wedding feast" occurs at that time).

To be in the "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God, but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority. (pg 127) - Stanley

While I believe in eternal security for all believers who have trusted Christ's finished work alone, for salvation (and would likely agree with him there), I disagree with his viewpoint that any member of the Church will be "cast... into outer darkness... weeping and gnashing of teeth" (whatever that may ultimately prove to be).

This verse (and ones like it) are not to be applied to the Church at all (and that goes for all of Matthew 24-25). I know that doesn't answer your question, but I just wanted to mention that. Hope that makes sense.

[Caveman]

Just finished a study on Hebrews and as Chuck Missler puts it:

You can't lose your salvation but you can lose your inheritance...

“The Darkness Outside”
“...outer darkness...”: to. sko,toj to., evxw,teron, “the darkness outside.”
Unfaithful servants are saved by grace, but are not positively rewarded
for unfaithfulness. Those in “the darkness outside” have lost their reward
of inheritance in the Millennial Kingdom (to presume that this refers to
Hades is an illegitimate connotative transfer; cf. J. Dillow, G.H. Ladd,
Erwin Lutzer, A.E. Wilson, et al.).

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into
outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:26-28

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?
So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery
is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown;
but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight
I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it
into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I
myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27

[acceptedintheBeloved]

That is the viewpoint that I disagree with.

When the "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth"-type verses (which I listed in my post, above) are studied in context, it reveals that this is not referring to the fate of the Church-age believer. Covenant Theology seeks to blur these distinctions.

I do, however, believe that we can gain or lose reward... (1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; Colossians 2:18, etc.)



Ephesians 1:11-12 (of the Church, who has been "blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN CHRIST")

Ephesians 1:11-12

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Colossians 1:12-13

Colossians 1:12-13

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Matthew 22:1-13NASB (the "wedding feast", which takes place at His Second Coming, and on the earth)

Matthew 22:1-13NASB

Parable of the Marriage Feast

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying,

2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.

3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'

5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,

6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.

7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

8 "Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'

10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man [guest] there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

12 and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.

13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

We, the Church, are not the "dinner guests".

[Hootmon]

'Outer darkenss' is a euphemism for 'beyond the light/heat of the fire'.
I wouldnt read too much into it as far as doctrine goes.

[linda]

Isn't the term "outer darkness" a place that Mormans believe an excommunicated member is supposedly sent after death?

[IMSAVED]

Like my pastor once said " This is the closest to Hell that the believers will get and this is the closest the Heaven that the none believers will get"

[Saved Alone by Jesus]

Jesus said all of our tears will be gone, all pain and suffering, we will have no more sorrow.

So how can this be true? Otherwise we might as well have a Catholic Purgatory in place?

No I don't like this analogy at all coming from him, sadly.

I like Charles Stanley too but it concerns me that he addresses it like that???

[librarylady45]

Chuck and Nancy Missler, in their book: The Kingdom, Power and Glory: The Overcomer's Handbook explain about the outer darkness in relation to the carnal believer in great detail. I recommend reading it.

librarylady

[bek1]

Jesus said all of our tears will be gone, all pain and suffering, we will have no more sorrow.

So how can this be true? Otherwise we might as well have a Catholic Purgatory in place?

No I don't like this analogy at all coming from him, sadly.

I like Charles Stanley too but it concerns me that he addresses it like that???

Stanley and Missler are referring to the Millennial Reign (prior to the eternal ages). There will still be tears, regret etc..in the Millennium. It's after the 1000 year reign of Christ that he wipes away every tear (as we transition into the eternal ages). They are two different and distinct ages of time. I agree with Stanley and Missler on this subject. I do not believe "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are descriptions of the place of eternal damnation (lake of fire). In Christiandom today, people have it ingrained in their minds to automatically associate those descriptions with the lake of fire, but I believe Christ is talking about something else, in relation to HIS people (ie: virgins, servants, etc...). Most people interpret those passages backwards. They see "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and automatically assume the passage is referring to heathens/unsaved. But the passage needs to be interpreted from the beginning, when "servant" is used, or virgin, this is obviously addressing people in relationship to Jesus..."owned" by Jesus in the case of servant, and "clean and pure" in the case of "virgin". It is from there you then pay attention to the message, in the proper context and can start to see the weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness being something completely different from the Lake of Fire.

[Buzzardhut]

Just finished a study on Hebrews and as Chuck Missler puts it:

You can't lose your salvation but you can lose your inheritance...

regenerated believers can lose rewards but not inheritance, inheritance is a part of salvation

[bek1]

regenerated believers can lose rewards but not inheritance, inheritance is a part of salvation

Godly Bible teachers have differing opinions of this. Some view that scripture teaches inheritance as our "right" as first born sons, but something we can forfeit (like Esau did...it was his right as a first born, but HE chose to forfeit it.) Profound regret followed once he realized what he had done. The above teachers (ie: Missler and others like him) would suggest that this and many other OT "types" picture how inheritance works. Note, Esau didn't lose his status as a son...but lost his inheritance.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

They are drawing from and applying earthly kingdom truth (for Israel) to the heavenly Body (of Christ).

Here are the "weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" and "cast into outer darkness" passages:

Matthew 8:11-12

Matthew 8:11-12

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28-29

Luke 13:28-29

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:35-42 (Parables of the Kingdom; Parable #1 of 6 "similitudes", [explained to the disciples only] - The Wheat and The Tares)

Matthew 13:35-42

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world [age]; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [age].

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:47-50 (Parable of the Net)

Matthew 13:47-50

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world [age]: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Note: The only one of these similitudes (in Matthew 13) which represents "the Church" is that of "the Pearl of Great Price" - Matthew 13:45-46; no mention of "cast out" or "weeping/wailing/gnashing"; "The Pearl of Great Price" is "the Church" which HE sold all and bought (past tense verbs, there), and NOT to be identified as Christ Himself (which we supposedly "sell all to buy"), as some say.

Matthew 22:1-13NASB (Parable of "The Wedding Feast"; The Church is not the "dinner guests")

Matthew 22:1-13NASB

Parable of the Marriage Feast

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying,

2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.

3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'

5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,

6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.

7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

8 "Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'

10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

12 and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.

13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping [wailing] and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 24:42-51 (Second Coming passage; not the rapture of the Church)

Matthew 24:42-51

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping [wailing] and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 (Parable of The Talents given to His Servants)

Matthew 25:30

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping [wailing] and gnashing of teeth.

(versus those servants who will "enter thou into the joy of thy lord", verses 21 and 23)

.
We, the Church, are not servants, but Sons:

Galatians 4:7

Galatians 4:7

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Ephesians 4:1

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

.
As for those who will "enter into the kingdom" (in their physical bodies, after the trib):

Matthew 25:31-35 (at His Second Coming, the Sheep and Goat Judgment of the Nations)

Matthew 25:31-34

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Take note of the difference between those who were "chosen IN HIM [this is said only of the Church]... BEFORE the foundation of the world", and those to whom the [earthly, millennial] kingdom was prepared for them FROM the foundation of the world. Glorious difference indeed!
"Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth." Colossians 3:2

Ephesians 1:3

Ephesians 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed US with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN Christ

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Godly Bible teachers have differing opinions of this. Some view that scripture teaches inheritance as our "right" as first born sons, but something we can forfeit (like Esau did...it was his right as a first born, but HE chose to forfeit it.) Profound regret followed once he realized what he had done. The above teachers (ie: Missler and others like him) would suggest that this and many other OT "types" picture how inheritance works. Note, Esau didn't lose his status as a son...but lost his inheritance.

Hi Bek1... I didn't see you here, as I was busy typing.

I tend to agree with Buzzardhut, in that, I believe that we can lose reward but not inheritance. We receive what Christ receives as far as inheritance goes... because of Him. (Galatians 4:5 "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" [full sonship] which has to do with "inheritance" [of sons]... and related to the phrase "this is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased"... all who are "in Him" receive it.)

I believe we (the Church-age individual believers) can gain and lose reward, though, as I have said.

[Iruntherace4Him]

This is one time I disagree with the Misslers. I received their new book recently the Kingdom power and glory, and had some issues with their doctrinal ideas on this very subject. I had to throw the book out. I could not read it any longer. I believe We can lose our rewards but not our inheritance.. . and we will reign with Christ . I was very disappointed in the book . I have read a lot of both Nancy's and Chuck's books and have truly gained some valuable spiritual insight from them. The way I see it is Chuck says to be a berean, And that is what I did with regards to his new book. I dug and received the answers to my questions.. I won't throw the baby out with the bath water here however, I still consider Chuck to be an excellent man of God and he knows his bible, he is just mistaken on this particular doctrine .

[friharbor]

Thank you Iruntherace for sharing this! I too just rec'd this book (as a gift) and had to stop reading it. I too believe you can lose rewards, but not inheritance. After all, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was told by Jesus that "today, you will be with Me in Paradise". That thief did not have time to grow in sanctification. If the thief would have been placed in outer darkness with gnashing of teeth, I do not think the Lord would have told him he would be in Paradise.

[bek1]

Hi Bek1... I didn't see you here, as I was busy typing.

I tend to agree with Buzzardhut, in that, I believe that we can lose reward but not inheritance. We receive what Christ receives as far as inheritance goes... because of Him. (Galatians 4:5 "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" [full sonship] which has to do with "inheritance" [of sons]... and related to the phrase "this is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased"... all who are "in Him" receive it.)

I believe we (the Church-age individual believers) can gain and lose reward, though, as I have said.

Hi! Definately something I will continue to pursue understanding better. (as i mentioned in my PM)

[Caveman]

regenerated believers can lose rewards but not inheritance, inheritance is a part of salvation

that's interesting, and given the debate on this subject and the fact this is my first time studying on this, I will continue to "rightly divide the word"
still unsure exactly what "inheritance" is
thx for everyone's input

[Oceanlover]

I just went to the Missler site and read Nan's corner.
It makes sense to me.
Once we become believers we are to WIN souls. Bottom line...
My problem with this is there are those people who are struggling to make ends meet and cant focus on God or saving people, we are trying just to live..
My self , my 1 and only car broke down and I dont have the money to fix it..
And there are many out there with bigger problems.

[Buzzardhut]

Godly Bible teachers have differing opinions of this. Some view that scripture teaches inheritance as our "right" as first born sons, but something we can forfeit (like Esau did...it was his right as a first born, but HE chose to forfeit it.) Profound regret followed once he realized what he had done. The above teachers (ie: Missler and others like him) would suggest that this and many other OT "types" picture how inheritance works. Note, Esau didn't lose his status as a son...but lost his inheritance.

in OT law, yes
but I am referring to the Bride of Christ, she obtains rewards and inheritance

I do not believe there will be tears of loss at the Bema, we will have accomplished exactly what Jesus set us out to do. Our flesh robs us of our potential but not every reward, I believe our salvation is our first award and every move for Jesus after that, if not we are actually easy believers and not truly saved, as James 2 discusses......