Soldier of the King
Tribulation vs Wrath
I was at Bible Study last night and we are studying Revelation. The Rapture came up and I was explaining my pre-Trib view and that God did not call us to His wrath. The reply given was that: tribulation is not God's wrath. His wrath doesn't come until the second coming so we could very well be going through the tribulation. I completely disagree with this but just don't know how to
support it. Any help?
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Walking by faith
The word "wrath" is used several times in Revelation.Originally Posted by twisty58
Revelation 6:16---"and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, ""Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;"
Revelation 6:17---"for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand? "
Revelation 11:18--"And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time [came] for the dead to be judged, and [the time] to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
Revelation 14:10--"he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
However, the one that sticks out the most to me; and helps answer your question the most, would be in Rev. 15....
REV15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, [which are] the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
The tribulation is, among other things, the pouring out of God's wrath. From "the wrath of the Lamb" in Chapter 6 to the pouring out of "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God"(Rev.15:7); from beginning to end.
Also, in the book of Daniel, 70 weeks were decreed for Israel. 69 weeks ended with the death of Jesus on the cross, leaving one week remaining...the 7 years of tribulation.
Daniel 9:24 says "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy [place.]"
We know that 69 weeks have passed and one remain in the next few verses...
DA9:25 "So you are to know and discern [that] from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince [there will be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress."
DA9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
DA9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
At the end of the 69th week (seven weeks and sixty-two weeks) Jesus died for our sins on the cross, thus "the Messiah was cut off" However one week remains. That week, that final week in time, will begin with the signing of a treaty with Israel and the antichrist and end with the climactic "glorious appearing of Jesus Christ".
One of the principle reasons for this 7 years period, however , is clear...the pourng out of Gods wrath on a sin filled world.
amen. pretty much every christian is going through "tribulations" right now. but sense humans who are saved and love jesus and did the whole forgiveness thing aren't going to hell, then we have no reason being here when God is judging the whole world. remember how many times God has had a way for noah and many others so that they can survive while God poured out his wrath on different places and a few times the whole world? this is the same. only this time he's setting it up so that people can GET saved during those 7+ years. and this is where the tribulation part comes in. the public, controlled by satan, persecute christians that are left behind.
Very well said Carlos
The only thing I have to add is regarding this:
This is really a minor clarification, but the 69 weeks actually ended when Christ was cut off by the Jews in Jerusalem. This happened not on the date of His crucifiction, but several days earlier. He rode into Jerusalem in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9 and not only did they not realize He was fulfilling Scripture (Daniel 9:25) to the DAY, but they outright rejected Him leading Him to exclaim the following:
So on that day, they cut Him off and He therefore cut them off. God's dispensation with the Jews went on hold and the dispensation with the Gentiles began. Soon our dispensation will end with the Rapture and Daniel's 70th week, the "Time of Jacob's Trouble", will begin. It is the final "week" (7 years) of God's dispensation with the Jews.Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Maranatha!
Regular Member
the entire 7 year period of the tribulation is the dispensation of the wrath of God.every seal,trumpet and bowl judgment is the wrath of God.
In God I Trust
Soldier of the King
Well that's what I always thought but was told that God's wrath isn't until the very,very end. Doesn't make sense at all to me.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Regular Member
twisty58,
To compliment Carlos's Rev. wrath passages, here are a few that show we the Church/Bride of Christ are not to endure His wrath:
One last thing that I've learned from the scholars that really sticks in my mind...we are the Bride of Christ.THE CHURCH / BRIDE OF CHRIST IS NOT APPPOINTED TO Wrath:
Ezekiel 38:18 “And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord GOD, “that My fury will show in My face. 19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, 20 so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.’ 21 I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord GOD. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.”’
Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
1 Thessalonians 1:10...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus told John to write: Rev. 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
The word “temptation” here means “testing.” Jesus promises to keep from a specific hour of “testing” those who have remained faithful to the word of His patience. The terms to consider are “testing” and “patience.” The Philadelphian church, Jesus says in this foretelling, has been faithful to His Word about His “patience.” Those of this church will, therefore, be kept out of the hour of “testing.”
Jesus said, as recorded in the gospel of Luke: “In your patience possess ye your souls” (Luke 21:19). What “patience” was the Lord referring to, here? The Apostle Peter clarifies for us: “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).
The “patience” of the Lord is wrapped up in the all-important issue of salvation of lost souls. This is God’s word of His patience. Those who are truly in His family have kept in their hearts the Word of His patience –trust in Him for their salvation. These who are alive at the time before the hour of “testing,” who keep the word of His patience, will not go into that hour of “testing” –the tribulation era, Daniel’s seventieth week.
Does this mean that because believers “keep” the word of His patience –hang on to our salvation belief—we can lose it if we don’t “keep” the word of His patience? No. We can’t lose the “word of His patience” because the Word is Jesus Christ:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1-4).
What Groom would put their Bride through the worst wrath ever to come upon civilization, just prior to their wedding?
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own.
As it is, you do not belong to the world,
but I have chosen you out of the world."
John 15:17-19
Regular Member
well,technically even the seal judgments are the wrath of God,especially the 6th seal which follows the 5th seal where some that came to faith after the Rapture were martyred.Revelation 6:7-17
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony.They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters[f]—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them.I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places.
Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb.For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”Amen!!
To compliment Carlos's Rev. wrath passages, here are a few that show we the Church/Bride of Christ are not to endure His wrath:
One last thing that I've learned from the scholars that really sticks in my mind...we are the Bride of Christ.
What Groom would put their Bride through the worst wrath ever to come upon civilization, just prior to their wedding?
In God I Trust
It's been my experience that as long as folks want there to be a mid-trib rapture, they will either find scripture to back it or an explanation to refute any logical reasoning why it cannot be so. The question is, why are they so desperate to believe in a mid-trib rapture?
Answer: they feel the need to somehow "contribute " to their salvation by suffering. Somehow, they think that they need to be "purified" or "sanctified" by the Lord through suffering, as if Christ's blood wasn't enough. As pointed out before: Christ isn't going to let his bride get pummeled before the wedding. In fact, I think that any self-respecting groom would come get his bride if he knew she was in danger, which is why Christ won't leave us here for any part of the tribulation.
On that note: if the bride needed to be purified for some reason, wouldn't that mean the groom could NOT marry her because she was impure? In fact, Joseph though about calling off his wedding to Mary because she was pregnant:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. " (Matthew 1:18-21, NIV)
Had she slept with a man and gotten pregnant, Joseph would have had just reason. But the angel of the Lord informed Joseph that what she was carrying was from God, and not to be afraid to take her as his wife.
My point is; If the Bride of Christ needed to be purified, then how could scripture say that Christ's return is imminent? He could simply call off the wedding because she was impure. yet, we are promised that he will come for his bride. And we are told in scripture that Christ's blood purifies us:
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." (1 John 1:7, NIV)
So, that pretty much shoots down any other rapture theory but pre-trib.
Regular Member
We need to remember that the Great Tribulation is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7). Different dispensation. We will not be here.
Wondering?
Robert
That was a great way of explaining the pre-trib position. I certainly will be keeping that in my notes for future reference.
What a great observation that some feel they need to contribute to their salvation. I belong to the Episcopal Church here in Australia and while they are Biblically sound there is little attempt to deal with the End Times, Rapture and Tribulation. Ministers are left to preach as they are convicted on this subject. I find many congregation members in my Church have certainly embraced the idea that the Church will be going into the Tribulation. Even though our Minister clearly teaches we can't in any put in any effort into our salvation it is completely from the Lord. I guess many feel we are not worthy to escape what is to come because we contributed to Christ's death on the Cross it would be arrogant to think we wouldn't go through the Tribulation with the rest of the World.
I've summarised how some of the Bible Study leaders I know at the Church would teach it and I know that this is a popular belief by many Anglicans here in Sydney. I have tried to share pre-trib Rapture and I can tell you I have had NO interest. Anything to do with the End Times will brand you a Pentecostal Nut. I even get a bit of flack when I try to encourage anyone to watch some good Christian Creationist Videos. They are saved but not wanting to know about anything past the Cross of Christ.
Most of the Ministers when you talk to them about Rapture timing etc.. will just smile at you and say, "we are pan-millenialists, we believe it will all pan out in the End".
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