Why do so many try to discredit the pre-trib rapture?

[BarbT]

Why do so many try to discredit the pre-trib rapture?

Mainly because it validates the fact that the Church has not replaced God's covenant people. He will turn His attention back to Israel after the Church is raptured and it angers the anti-Semites to no end.

The lie that the Jews lost their chance for salvation, making all of us "good Christians" now *the apple of His eye*, has been propagated since the early Church. Centuries later the religious system created by Constantine {the RCC} continued to misguide generations of people about the Hebrew people.

Those who teach or believe such a hideous lie always seem particularly anxious to dismiss Israel's role in Endtime prophecy.Check out the more aggressive anti-PreTrib writers and speakers {hint: Hank Hanegraff } and you'll see what I mean.

[katt]

I read thru this whole thread and did not see anyone above state that they believe in a partial rapture theory. In fact, there were a few that said they disagreed with that view, but not one that agrees. The reason that was brought up was because one of the authors discussed held that view, which everyone here disagrees with. So I am not sure if you will get an answer to the above question...

Very sorry..I truely wasn't implying that anyone here believed in the partial rapture theory..I heard a preacher preach it when I was a young girl..it scared me big time..my bible teacher set my mind at ease by saying..I don't believe in the partial rapture..the question never came to me til about a year ago..and I never really got it worded in my head til just a few days ago..it was a question I threw out there to share w/those of us who want to make the ones who do believe in the partial rapture think..that is all..

[RaptureReady_7]

Misty, I've often wondered at the same thing.

I mean, if they don't agree with us, fine! It's not a salvation issue as far as I know. But to say that we who preach and believe in the pre-trib rapture are heretics and worse, not saved.. is..... mind boggling.

It begs the question... why so much hostility toward those of us who are pre-trib?

I did not read the whole thread, but some of my thoughts on this are:

I have noticed, with many, not all, but a good many of those who bash pre-trib usually denigrate those who do believe in the pre-trib rapture as escapism instead of as believing in God's promise:

Luke 21:36 (New King James Version)

36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Many post-trib believe we have to be punished by God along unbelievers with an unbelieving world, during the 7 years of wrath God brings upon the world during the trib. That somehow they have to go through God's wrath to be made worthy to go to heaven instead of relying upon Jesus' death on the cross and faith/repentance that He brings.

Very contradictory teachings by many post trib believers. A salvation by works - suffering in the tribulation - in case faith and repentance is not enough for God to save us.

But I do agree, the outright hatred shown to the pre trib belief, by other believers is the puzzling part. I understand the world's thoughts and actions, that makes sense since they resist God. But I have seen the accusations and hatred aimed at pre trib believers by post trib believers and it is very disappointing.

[Perpetua]

Many have said we are supposed to have our faith tested and endure until the end. ...
As if we aren't already being tested and enduring hardship. What about all our Brothers and Sisters in Christ that have passed away before us they never got the chance to go through the Tribulation, what does that say about their faith & their salvation?

Yes, they confuse general tribulation / trouble with the Great Tribulation -- deny the fact of the objective, future, specific event, and then claim that the pre-trib rapture was something invented "only in America" by people who think that the pre-trib rapture means that we will escape all persecution. As I pointed out to one such preacher, that is NOT what pre-trib rapturists believe, and that there is a distinction between general persecution and tribulation, versus the specific Great Tribulation.

BTW, it is NOT just the Pre-Trib rapture that is pummeled with viciousness.

There is also a strong rude hatred for the belief that Israel still has a place in God's plan, and the fact that the MK is yet future. I mean, really - the words these people use to describe those of us that hold to dispensational beliefs.

It reminds me of how leftists react to things. Refusing to stick to the argument, and instead making it personal.

Absolutely! Such professing believers act as hostile as unbelievers, and often resort to name-calling, all the while showing by their words that they don't even know what they're talking about. I'm reminded of something said by a pre-trib teacher, speaking of this very anti-Israel prejudice -- "God's people are not offended by what's in this book" (the Bible). It does make me wonder about them sometimes, how the Holy Spirit in some of us makes it so clear, but not in others who also profess Christ.

[bek1]

Very sorry..I truely wasn't implying that anyone here believed in the partial rapture theory..I heard a preacher preach it when I was a young girl..it scared me big time..my bible teacher set my mind at ease by saying..I don't believe in the partial rapture..the question never came to me til about a year ago..and I never really got it worded in my head til just a few days ago..it was a question I threw out there to share w/those of us who want to make the ones who do believe in the partial rapture think..that is all..

Ahh ok, i understand your post now.

[Lucinda]

During the tribulation we know God sends his two witnesses
Revelation 11 :3-12
Now these two witnesses prophesy and they give their testimonies.This will take place during the Great Tribulation.
Now if the Bride (The Church) is not Raptured before the start of the tribulation why would God send two witnesses to bear testimony of Christ.If the church,the Bride is here during the tribulation God would not send two witnesses to do the work of the church and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Also we know that in Revelation 22:17 the Spirit and the Bride say,"COME"
This scripture lets us know that the Bride and the Spirit are working together.When the Bride is Raptured out,so is the Spirit and this is why God sends his two witnesses to prophesy and give testimonies to the one's left here.

[chiliast]

Just to reiterate, George N. H. Peters was thoroughly pre-trib. From his The Theocratic Kingdom, in a section where he's discussing the first stage of the two-stage nature of Christ's second coming:

TTK:2:317: ...the two stages, resulting in a translation previous to the tribulation

He's definitely not post-trib:

TTK:2:335: ...another mistake is made when the translation is placed after the ending of the Jewish tribulation.

He saw the first stage (the rapture of the church) of the Second Advent as imminent:

TTK:2:319: We have assurances given to us not to interpose any event whatever between us and such an Advent, but to regard it as an event that may occur at any moment without any notification of its approach (excepting only such as are given by approximative signs)

And he counseled believers to be watching and waiting for their imminent rapture:

TTK:1:445: ...believers to fix their fond expectations of the Kingdom upon the Sec. Coming, and not on the First.

TTK:1:472: The two Syriac words Maran-atha (the Lord is about to come) became the watchword of the Christians among themselves

TTK:1:495: ...the Chiliastic posture of “every hour expecting the Kingdom of God.”

TTK:1:514: ...the church as a struggling, tried body awaiting deliverance and triumph alone through the personal Advent of the Messiah

TTK:1:597: The church occupies the position of waiting (e.g. 1 Pet. 1:7, 13) for this Revelation of Jesus as King.

TTK:2:167: Oosterzee (Ch. Dog., vol. 2, sec. 146, etc.)... remarks... “the personal return of the Lord... the life of watchfulness, patience, and heavenly mindedness, it is the soul and power... history makes abundantly manifest, that when this prospect has temporarily receded from the Christian consciousness, the spiritual life also has declined,” etc.

TTK:2:196: A caution is requisite: the doctrine of the Sec. Advent to be fully and practically beneficial is not simply to be confined to a belief in its mode (i.e. personal) or time of occurrence (i.e. Pre-Millenial), but must be extended to a just apprehension of its greatness, importance, and glory as a Theocratic ordering. The heart must not rest satisfied with a mere knowledge of the manner and time, but must receive both the grand fact as a realization of Covenant promise with its blessed redemptive results, and the application of the same to ourselves personally, i.e. our interest in it, etc. It is to be feared that this doctrine, like all others, may be held purely speculatively, theoretically, without exerting a practical influence upon the life. Unless it be, as James expresses it, an “engrafted word” exerting a sanctifying influence, urging to duty, etc., it will be of little benefit.

TTK:2:317: The “morning star” comes before “the day” dawns; the “sun” shines during “the day;” Jesus is both. As the morning star, He is seen by few: as the sun, He is seen by all. Those who watch not merely for the sun, but for the morning star, properly heed the cautions and injunctions relating to the posture of watching.

[chiliast]

Consistently, throughout his volumes, Peters decries the church's overall slumber regarding the rapture. This concern on Peters' part, which matches the concern and observations in the OP of this thread, is one of the things that endears Peters to me. I have no doubt that he was truly "one of us."

TTK:1:167: It is comparatively easy to endure the reproaches of unbelievers, but not so readily those of excellent men, believers, who, by their sweeping statements, are justly chargeable with moulding the minds of multitudes to a rejection of a true, consistent interpretation of Scripture, preparing the masses of the church to have no faith when the Saviour comes.

TTK:2:43: ...the deeply impressive question (alas, so abundantly verified. in this day), “Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?”

TTK:2:46: But few, wholly dependent on faith and not on the Kingdom itself presenting preliminary external signs for observation, will accept of the prophecies pertaining to this matter and be looking for, watching for, and awaiting with hope the Kingdom.

TTK:2:52: ...unbelief is so sadly predicted.

TTK:2:196: Considering the prominence and preciousness of this doctrine of a Pre-Mill. Advent, it is strange that men should so persistently reject and condemn it, notwithstanding the cautions and warnlngs given. The reason for its unpopularity and bitter opposition must be found in its condemnatory nature. It sets aside all human systems, all worldly schemes of regeneration, all man-devised plans to realize the Messiah’s Kingdom on earth, all confidence in the resources of nature, reason, etc., declaring that the personal intervention of Jesus, the Christ, is requisite to bring about the world’s restoration to Millennial blessedness. This is humbling to man’s pride, to his worldliness, to his schemes of reformation, all of which this Advent dooms to destruction. This exalting of the Christ and His work is condemnatory of man and his work, and hence man hates it, for it is a constant and jarring protest to his vain ideas of progress and reform, to his estimate of the Church’s and world’s actual mission and condition.

[bookworm1711]

Thanks to acceptedinthebeloved for clarifying for others which "Peters" we are talking about, and to Chiliast for posting material directly from the source. I believe that among all scholars of any age Peters ranks among the best as a staunch defender of the Premillennial Advent of Christ, and the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church.

BarbT hit the nail precisely on its head:

Mainly because it validates the fact that the Church has not replaced God's covenant people. He will turn His attention back to Israel after the Church is raptured and it angers the anti-Semites to no end.

I've heard some assert that "if it is new, it's not true," which, of course, is mindless nonsense. If you do not learn something new at least every once in a while when you seriously study the Bible, perhaps you are not really studying the Bible. Some (elsewhere than here, of course) hold more tightly to established creeds than to Scripture. Creeds were not written to cover every point of Bible doctrine, especially doctrine pertaining to Bible prophecy. Nevertheless, Taylor in the nineteenth century wrote a volume called The Voice of the Church which shows that much prophetic truth has been held over the centuries by Christian believers in the past. Some, more tightly wedded to church Creeds than to the Bible argue staunchly against the doctrine of the Pre-tribulation Rapture.

The contrary position has sometimes been filled with bitterness, rudeness, and ad hominem attacks prominently from early in the twentieth century, particularly the volume by Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ. Many authors have followed his lead. I think I may have spent more time studying the contrary views than the correct view. My personal friend, Pastor Norman Douty, has written the most irenic volume on the subject in his work Has Christ's Return Two Stages. He and I agreed peacefully to disagree on this subject. The best single source to unravel all the differences that I have found is Pentecost's volume, Things to Come.

At post 80, bek1 raises an interesting question:

I have a question regarding the Matt 24 gathering the elect from the four winds. I too agree this is Israel, and appreciate the references in Isaiah and Ezekiel. Do you think that the current gathering in Israel is the fulfillment of these prophecies, or do you think this is still a future fulfillment that hasn't yet occured. In other words, do you think there will be continued dispersion of Israel until the end, and right at the time of Christ's second coming He gathers them all back..?

I believe that in 1948 at the re-establishment of the nation of Israel, we have just the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecy regarding the regathering of Israel. The complete regathering at the final restoration (Acts 1:6. Acts 3:20, 21. Amos 9:15. Acts 15:16) of Israel in belief, not unbelief, is reserved for the time of Christ's return when they acknowledge Him as their Redeemer and Messiah (Zechariah 12:10), when "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26, 27 where Paul cites well-known Bible prophecy from Isaiah 59:19-21).

There is an interesting expression used at Isaiah 11:11 pertaining to the second time:

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Israel's full restoration was not accomplished with the return from the Babylonian captivity but is still future (Deuteronomy 30:4).

The second regathering (the Bible does not predict a third) precedes the restoration.

The regathering brings Israel back to the land in unbelief (Zephaniah 2:1, 2) before the Day of the Lord (Zephaniah 2:3) and so before the Great Tribulation (Jeremiah 30:7. Daniel 12:1).

The initial regathering of Israel to the land (Isaiah 54:7. Ezekiel 34:13. Ezekiel 37:25) which some of us have seen in our lifetime sets the stage for the further working out of God's prophetic purposes. Christ in the Olivet discourse assumes Israel is in the land (Matthew 24:15) before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the regathering and final restoration is to make possible the fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants (Isaiah 55:3. Acts 7:5). This regathering (Matthew 24:31) must be distinguished carefully from the final restoration.

There is much more that I could relate regarding this subject, but it would make this post too long.

[It'sOver9000]

Hey guys. new here!

I've always known the rapture would be pre-trib - it just makes the most sense to me, and it's very well supported by the bible. None of the others really seem to fit in.

I have a friend who is post-trib. One time when we were discussing this, I had brought up the point that we were not appointed to wrath, and that we (the church) had already faced much persecution during the age of Grace, so why would we need to be persecuted more? He replied saying I had "answered my own question," : and that "since we had already faced persecution, why should we expect anything less?" it's almost like he WANTS to be persecuted, which I can't understand.

I honestly can't understand why people would dismiss the idea of a pre-trib rapture. We're being protected from the evil that's going to be coming on the whole world - why would they want to be here during then?

[ThePenguin]

why would they want to be here during then?

Hi, It'sover900. First, welcome to RR!

Second, I don't like to assume this but it seems like a "holier-than-thou" kind of thing; almost as if they feel like they have to go through it or else they aren't worthy or something. The truth is, there's nothing wrong with wanting to avoid the Tribulation (besides, the Bible tells us we will). The Tribulation is going to be the absolute worst seven years this Earth has ever seen. It will make 9/11, the Holocaust, and World War I and II (combined) look like a day at the beach by comparison. Nobody wants to be here when those seven years happen.

The Tribulation, according to gotquestions.org, is: "...a future seven-year period of time when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world." We are not part of that because we are not unbelieving.

[Glory in print]

They try to discredit it, because its true... Satan always raises up resisitance and tries to discredit the truth so he raises people up to mock it and to speak against it... And sadly he uses other Christians to do it... Dont you think the Christians who speak against the pre trib rapture when they get to heaven are going to be ashamedof themselves, I think they will be especially the ones who speak against people who believe in the pre - trib rapture, to many of them this belief is heresy... I kid you not many of them believe that people who believe in the pre - trib rapture are heretics.

[Buzzardhut]

Hey guys. new here!

I've always known the rapture would be pre-trib - it just makes the most sense to me, and it's very well supported by the bible. None of the others really seem to fit in.

I have a friend who is post-trib. One time when we were discussing this, I had brought up the point that we were not appointed to wrath, and that we (the church) had already faced much persecution during the age of Grace, so why would we need to be persecuted more? He replied saying I had "answered my own question," : and that "since we had already faced persecution, why should we expect anything less?"

the pretrib rapture escapes God's Wrath not satan's wrath

[Rebekah]

This is an intense thread.

First, I'll say: I agree, no one should viciously attack another group for believing pre-Trib, etc. I understand that was the original thread's starting off point.

But, I do see something coming from both "sides" that bothers me, and it's the notion that someone believes what they do simply because they "hope to escape" (pre-Trib) or "expect to suffer" (post-Trib), etc. To steal a term from my high school Bible teacher, these are hasty generalizations that are being erroneously applied to a group of people who more than likely believe what they do because that's how they understand scripture, not because of what they hope for or expect.

[Verisimilitude]

I was recently on a pilgrimage to Israel (Praise the LORD!). One of the people on the tour was a minister and had just authored a book assuring everyone that the Holy Spirit informed her it would be a mid-trib rapture. That the first half of the tribulation is the wrath of Satan, not of God, therefore Jesus wouldn't yet be returning for us. That Christians the world over would suffer along with the rest of the world, including but not limited to total loss of all assets and death for putting our faith in Jesus. Again, she assured everyone in her book that she got this information directly from the Holy Spirit.
I read this woman's book. It was well written and insightful in some instances, and I came to the conclusion that some spirit other than the Holy Spirit was giving her this information. Paul advised us all that when someone gives a message, we are to compare it to what the scriptures say to see if there is truth in the message. We are told in the scriptures that the coming of Jesus for His Church is an event that will take the unsaved world by surprise. If the rapture came in the middle or end of the tribulation, everyone would know just when to look for it, but no man knows the day or the hour. Comparing scripture and ancient Hebrew marriage customs (thanx to Perry Stone), there is no way the rapture could be anything but a pre-tribulation rapture, and that the tribulation period or the Time of Jacob's trouble will be 7 years long, not 3 1/2.
Many people want to take away our joy and hope in the pre-trib rapture. Others are misinformed and not aware of the things Jesus meant when He said certain things. My trip to Israel was a real eye opener. The guide was a Messianic Jew who was well versed in both ancient Hebrew culture as well as the scripture, and she was able and willing to give us insights I never heard elsewhere.
Jesus in Luke 21 gave a long list of horrors that would precede the tribulation. He then said that when we BEGIN to see these things come to pass, that we should look up, for our redemption is near. I'm looking up now, I believe He's coming very soon. In fact, I believe the rapture has a great chance of happening before the next presidential election, based on scripture, based on ancient Hebrew customs and based on the first of the four fall feasts that will likely be the next to be fulfilled by our Lord.
Don't let others rob you of your hope. Don't let others who claim to have spiritual insight rob you of your hope. Read the scriptures and know that we, those who love the Lord Jesus, are not appointed to God's wrath. Keep oil in your lamps and be looking for His return.

[makeupgirl]

I think we are discredited because the post tribers and anyone else who don't believe know that we are right, know that this is the word of God but they just wanted to have it their way. They are blinded to the truth but also in the flesh, have the annoying need to be right. I just don't entertain it anymore. Let them believe what they want to believe. The bible speaks for itself, who are them to say otherwise.

[mary]

This is has been a very interesting thread.
I was very impressed with all of the posters who are being very respectful to those who hold different views.
We should love the brethren and show love and respect of each others views.
Vigorous debate is good, but I would not encourage personal attacks.
This does not effect our salvation.
Tribulation or suffering has nothing to do with our joy or hope.
Paul was persecuted, jailed,and etc, but he still experience his joy and hope in the Lord!


And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries ,and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,and have not charity, I am nothing.

[ThePenguin]

They try to discredit it, because its true... Satan always raises up resisitance and tries to discredit the truth so he raises people up to mock it and to speak against it... And sadly he uses other Christians to do it... Dont you think the Christians who speak against the pre trib rapture when they get to heaven are going to be ashamedof themselves, I think they will be especially the ones who speak against people who believe in the pre - trib rapture, to many of them this belief is heresy... I kid you not many of them believe that people who believe in the pre - trib rapture are heretics.

My previous youth group pastor would every now and then mention about how the pre-trib rapture is based on scripture taken out of context and how most evangelical Christians don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, etc. etc. I left the youth group after a short time because it wasn't very edifying, it was just a huge party; I never felt very comfortable there. In fact, I even remember a time where a guest speaker came in and the way he spoke about Jesus seemed disrespectful at best, at worst downright blasphemous. Needless to say after finding out that they were post-trib and seeing what was taught at this youth group and at this church, I was even more certain that the pre-trib rapture is what we're looking up for. (Don't quote me on this, but if I recall correctly I think my youth pastor once mentioned that my regular pastor believed that the events in Revelation happened in 70 A.D. or something like that. )

[Buzzardhut]

I have never been a pre-tribulational rapture fan, but not because I have a bone to pick with those who are. I just don't see it in the scripture and feel that some of the scriptures that are used are not really valid when taken with the other references. However, I don't believe the issue will determine anyone's salvation.
I hope none of you will view this as a mean-spirited letter and certainly I have no desire to be contentious, but I do have some reasonable worries about what will happen to those who await "the rapture" and who are not prepared to endure should that doctrine prove incorrect.
God bless

your pretrib rapture question has been answered

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?7078...e-Church/page6

[Isaiahsword]

Zephaniah 2:3