Francis Chan *EMERGED*

[OnceWasLost]

I just listened to this whole video and I got a much different impression than you. I wouldn't describe his message as "what you are doing to get to Heaven" as you stated, but rather, what are you willing to do to follow Jesus? He is right in saying that Jesus is returning as Judge, and I don't think you can read any sort of end times theology into what he stated because that wasn't what the sermon was about.

Figured you would say that. He is presumably speaking to a church of believers whom he is trying to motivate and get busy about Kingdom business. The passage he uses from Rev 21 is found in verse 8 where John speaks of cowards. Here's the thing verse 8 is not about believers, it's about unbelievers. So his constant refrain about being radical and all the rest plays on the fear that if you are not being radical enough, you better get busy.

As for the eschatological angle, he either misspoke at the 8:10 mark or his is expecting the second coming and not the Rapture. Jesus comes as the Judge in Rev 19 after the Tribulation. Only an amillennialist things Jesus will return at any moment as Judge.

Words mean things, so he needs to be careful about what he says, or maybe it is what he thinks. He only does topicals so trying to see how he views this for sure is not easy to know, if possible at all.

[HeIsEnough]

Ok, so I listened to this. He does indeed convey his own interpretation as law. Its one thing to isolate a text and speak to it, he isolates whole concepts to a text. And then blends it into a works based salvation, ignoring the rest of scripture. It reminded me a lot of Washer et.al.

He is presumably speaking to a church of believers whom he is trying to motivate and get busy about Kingdom business. The passage he uses from Rev 21 is found in verse 8 where John speaks of cowards. Here's the thing verse 8 is not about believers, it's about unbelievers. So his constant refrain about being radical and all the rest plays on the fear that if you are not being radical enough, you better get busy.

A strange form of "motivational Christianity." Preachers are feeding this week in and week out. Nobody grows, nobody matures, no meat is offered. And apparently, and sadly, the preacher man keeps given 'em more because his sheep don't do much, and don't seem saved. Rinse and repeat.

[Buzzardhut]

I just listened to this whole video and I got a much different impression than you. I wouldn't describe his message as "what you are doing to get to Heaven" as you stated, but rather, what are you willing to do to follow Jesus? He is right in saying that Jesus is returning as Judge, and I don't think you can read any sort of end times theology into what he stated because that wasn't what the sermon was about.

Jesus is our redeemer and shepherd, returning as judge is for unbelievers.

[ransomed]

Figured you would say that. He is presumably speaking to a church of believers whom he is trying to motivate and get busy about Kingdom business. The passage he uses from Rev 21 is found in verse 8 where John speaks of cowards. Here's the thing verse 8 is not about believers, it's about unbelievers. So his constant refrain about being radical and all the rest plays on the fear that if you are not being radical enough, you better get busy.

As for the eschatological angle, he either misspoke at the 8:10 mark or his is expecting the second coming and not the Rapture. Jesus comes as the Judge in Rev 19 after the Tribulation. Only an amillennialist things Jesus will return at any moment as Judge.

Words mean things, so he needs to be careful about what he says, or maybe it is what he thinks. He only does topicals so trying to see how he views this for sure is not easy to know, if possible at all.

Respectfully, I think it is difficult to understand what is going on in a video clip if one is not part of the culture and may not know the context in which the sermon took place. I live in the same town where this church is located, and I am all too familiar with the culture and lifestyle of Southern California. I have heard Francis say these kind of things before...and I believe it is because there is a lifestyle of incredible wealth and materialism in this region, and that Christians put so many things in their lives before God. I believe this was an ongoing theme for Francis because he recognized that it was a barrier for people in his church drawing closer to the Lord. So my interpretation of this is that it is nothing more than a pastor who understands his flock and is addressing many people as they really are. It's not really about criticizing people because they aren't radical enough, but calling them to choose the One who will be their ultimate fulfillment over all the other things they are being fulfilled with.

And with the comment about being a Judge, again, I think he was just referencing the fact that Christ is coming soon and will judge the world. Christians make these kinds of comments all the time. This was either his last or one of the last sermons he made before he left the church btw. It wasn't supposed to be a lesson on eschatology.

[HeIsEnough]

So my interpretation of this is that it is nothing more than a pastor who understands his flock and is addressing many people as they really are.

I take it this was his last sermon to that congregation, I seemed to catch that at the end. Honestly, it sounds like you are saying his pastorate was full of goats. I appreciate a spirited defense for the man, but its more about what he was teaching, rather than the man and his dilemma. Which seems to me to be one of the problems of the emergent church. These leaders are focused on the sheep, or how many they can gather, rather than focused on preaching the word in its fullness. It will come out as weak handling of God's word. It itself has the power of life and the power to bring to maturity. Too many of mans ideas when they have the book of life in their hands, and these pastors ought to know better. When Jesus left Peter, He told him to feed My sheep. His sheep, His word.

[OnceWasLost]

Respectfully, I think it is difficult to understand what is going on in a video clip if one is not part of the culture and may not know the context in which the sermon took place. I live in the same town where this church is located, and I am all too familiar with the culture and lifestyle of Southern California. I have heard Francis say these kind of things before...and I believe it is because there is a lifestyle of incredible wealth and materialism in this region, and that Christians put so many things in their lives before God. I believe this was an ongoing theme for Francis because he recognized that it was a barrier for people in his church drawing closer to the Lord. So my interpretation of this is that it is nothing more than a pastor who understands his flock and is addressing many people as they really are. It's not really about criticizing people because they aren't radical enough, but calling them to choose the One who will be their ultimate fulfillment over all the other things they are being fulfilled with.

Yet all the "sermons" I hear from him are a re wrapped version of the same. I pastor in an area that also has a good deal of affluence, and I don't see the need to tailor a message like you are mentioning. But, again you are into him so I get your defense of him.

And with the comment about being a Judge, again, I think he was just referencing the fact that Christ is coming soon and will judge the world. Christians make these kinds of comments all the time. This was either his last or one of the last sermons he made before he left the church btw. It wasn't supposed to be a lesson on eschatology.

That is no excuse for being sloppy, especially when people are listening very carefully. Do you even know his view on eschatology?

[ransomed]

Yet all the "sermons" I hear from him are a re wrapped version of the same. I pastor in an area that also has a good deal of affluence, and I don't see the need to tailor a message like you are mentioning. But, again you are into him so I get your defense of him.

That is no excuse for being sloppy, especially when people are listening very carefully. Do you even know his view on eschatology?

I don't know his views and really don't think it matters
that much. I accept that many people aren't as interested as me
in eschatology. I also recognize how difficult it is to teach as a
pastor because of the variability of the different views and the necessity
of hermeneutics. In the case of Francis Chan, he is clearly focused on helping
people have a deep love for Jesus, and he has a comprehensive understanding
of Scripture. I think that's awesome! Are we not able to learn from him just because
he may not believe in a pretribulation rapture?

Also, just want to add that I don't listen to Francis Chan and I'm not really into him,
as you stated. I just feel somewhat grieved when I see wonderful pastors put on the
chopping block in the apostasy section. I don't feel, with all due respect, that it is an expression
of Christlike behavior.

[HeIsEnough]

Also, just want to add that I don't listen to Francis Chan and I'm not really into him,
as you stated.

I just feel somewhat grieved when I see wonderful pastors put on the
chopping block in the apostasy section.

I don't feel, with all due respect, that it is an expression
of Christlike behavior.

You don't follow or know much about Chan, yet you defend him, think he is wonderful I guess, and we are the ones not "Christlike". I don't think you are thinking "Christlike."

I'm sorry, its hard to take what you are saying seriously.

[OnceWasLost]

I don't know his views and really don't think it matters that much. I accept that many people aren't as interested as me in eschatology.

And that is the undoing of the faith, IMO, when pastors and flocks lack interest in such things. It forms our doctrine and theology, but most fail to realize or acknowledge that. If his eschatology is Kingdom Now the evangelism is different and would over emphasize "works" because the kingdom needs it. For a person with an imminent return mindset evangelism has a greater urgency because His return sets in motion things that Kingdom Now people don't even believe are future.

There is much more to say on that whole line of thought. As for me it is a very big deal and people minimizing it and pastors avoiding it do a grave disservice to the people trusting they are receiving sound instruction.

Again, it is a big deal.

[ransomed]

You don't follow or know much about Chan, yet you defend him, think he is wonderful I guess, and we are the ones not "Christlike". I don't think you are thinking "Christlike."

I'm sorry, its hard to take what you are saying seriously.

I do know him as i already stated in my other posts. I just don't follow him much anymore since he left cornerstone.

[HeIsEnough]

I do know him as i already stated in my other posts. I just don't follow him much anymore since he left cornerstone.

Which points out a problem, unless I'm not understanding. If you have followed him and yet do not know his beliefs on the end times, I find that almost spiritually "criminal" for a teacher of God's word. Certainly for people who sat under him week in and week out, maybe you did not, I don't know.

Seriously, its the reason you are here, I assume, you realize you can't read the NT without the overwhelming emphasis of His soon return. Yet, many churches are silent, and not just emergent, or possibly this man, its rampant. As OWL related, its a big problem with many facets. Many things in a believers life hing on these things. I trust you know just how important it is to live with the blessed hope, how it motivates, how it gives peace, how you will not be caught unawares, how the Lord told us more than once to watch. It was purposely designed by the Lord to be a huge benefit to believers, and a believer is woefully deficient without it, imo, our faith is not designed to be lived without it. I've only been alive for a little time, but I can look at history and understand the church needs to be looking up right now.

Even so, many are sufficiently muddy on salvation, what it is, what it is not. And I'm attempting to see if its true, his video didn't impress me to be honest. You can't teach the true gospel, while at the same time, cast doubt on whether a man has accepted it or not. The message to the church is "do not be cowardly, the Lord did not give us a spirit of fear, stand strong in the Lord" Its not "perhaps you are not saved if you are a coward.", which is what I got out of his teaching.

People do not like their favorite teachers examined, we understand that. Its not the teacher at all, its the teaching. Calling it unchrist-like is a disservice to this board.

Here is the forum purpose:

The falling away from true Bible Faith through un-biblical movements , Word of Faith, grace + works, seeker services, the Purpose Driven movement, Emerging/Emergent movement, Mysticism, Gnosticism, etc... And touch not our Rapture Ready Apostasy exposers!

We examine all kinds of things that must be examined. There is no mention of any one man in the purpose, its about the teaching. I don't think we can afford to be silent.

[OnceWasLost]

Right click on "Like" tab.

Well said HIE

[Steve53]

Here is the forum purpose:

The falling away from true Bible Faith through un-biblical movements , Word of Faith, grace + works, seeker services, the Purpose Driven movement, Emerging/Emergent movement, Mysticism, Gnosticism, etc... And touch not our Rapture Ready Apostasy exposers!

We examine all kinds of things that must be examined. There is no mention of any one man in the purpose, its about the teaching. I don't think we can afford to be silent.

Ditto and then some.

[ransomed]

Which points out a problem, unless I'm not understanding. If you have followed him and yet do not know his beliefs on the end times, I find that almost spiritually "criminal" for a teacher of God's word. Certainly for people who sat under him week in and week out, maybe you did not, I don't know.

Seriously, its the reason you are here, I assume, you realize you can't read the NT without the overwhelming emphasis of His soon return. Yet, many churches are silent, and not just emergent, or possibly this man, its rampant. As OWL related, its a big problem with many facets. Many things in a believers life hing on these things. I trust you know just how important it is to live with the blessed hope, how it motivates, how it gives peace, how you will not be caught unawares, how the Lord told us more than once to watch. It was purposely designed by the Lord to be a huge benefit to believers, and a believer is woefully deficient without it, imo, our faith is not designed to be lived without it. I've only been alive for a little time, but I can look at history and understand the church needs to be looking up right now.

Even so, many are sufficiently muddy on salvation, what it is, what it is not. And I'm attempting to see if its true, his video didn't impress me to be honest. You can't teach the true gospel, while at the same time, cast doubt on whether a man has accepted it or not. The message to the church is "do not be cowardly, the Lord did not give us a spirit of fear, stand strong in the Lord" Its not "perhaps you are not saved if you are a coward.", which is what I got out of his teaching.

People do not like their favorite teachers examined, we understand that. Its not the teacher at all, its the teaching. Calling it unchrist-like is a disservice to this board.

Here is the forum purpose:


The falling away from true Bible Faith through un-biblical movements , Word of Faith, grace + works, seeker services, the Purpose Driven movement, Emerging/Emergent movement, Mysticism, Gnosticism, etc... And touch not our Rapture Ready Apostasy exposers!

We examine all kinds of things that must be examined. There is no mention of any one man in the purpose, its about the teaching. I don't think we can afford to be silent.

Well, I guess in my response to this I could just add that I have tried to convey a very simple point that I will make one more time with a little more emphasis and then just let it rest. And that is this: in my comments I was simply trying to convey my belief that it is unjust and unfair to "examine" a pastor's theology on a forum like this almost entirely through one or two video clips that have been posted, plus perhaps a couple of excerpts from the person's writing, combined with some added info about who the pastor associates with. This is what I saw as I read through this thread, just as I have seen with many other pastors criticized on this board. I believe that, just as the Bereans were praised because they examined for themselves the things they were taught, as Christians we should have the same attitude with all things. If we don't, we potentially open ourselves up to the possibility that we will unfairly judge or condemn something or someone that we don't really understand. Did Jesus not say, Judge not, for in the same manner that you judge, you yourself will be judged? How would you feel if people were rallying on about you on an internet forum expressing a bunch of half truths in the name of defending good doctrine? And what about the Lord's commandment that we are to love, and that love flows out of the inner reality of the heart? I'm sorry, but when I read some of the things I have head here, I don't feel a sense of love or compassion, or critical discernment as in the Bereans, or a presence of the Spirit. I feel judgement and condemnation of a person that nobody on this board knows.

And one last word about the mission of the board. I think it's good to point out that WOF, Emergent, etc, are labels that have been established and proliferated by people. There is nothing scriptural about any of it because none of it is in the Bible. So I would ask: are you seriously falling back on the guidance of scripture in this forum, or are you just buying into a bunch of inventions designed by Satan to create futher divisions in the church?

I don't imagine I have much of a supportive audience here, so this will be my last post.

[HeIsEnough]

Well, I guess in my response to this I could just add that I have tried to convey a very simple point that I will make one more time with a little more emphasis and then just let it rest. And that is this: in my comments I was simply trying to convey my belief that it is unjust and unfair to "examine" a pastor's theology on a forum like this almost entirely through one or two video clips that have been posted, plus perhaps a couple of excerpts from the person's writing, combined with some added info about who the pastor associates with. This is what I saw as I read through this thread, just as I have seen with many other pastors criticized on this board. I believe that, just as the Bereans were praised because they examined for themselves the things they were taught, as Christians we should have the same attitude with all things. If we don't, we potentially open ourselves up to the possibility that we will unfairly judge or condemn something or someone that we don't really understand.

This thread is here to examine these things, and to help others examine more.

Did Jesus not say, Judge not, for in the same manner that you judge, you yourself will be judged?

We are not judging Mr. Chans salvation. People decide for themselves whether to listen to these men or not. We are examining his teachings, while you think we personally dislike the man. I think that is just silly. People can and do examine what we say, what teachings people post are examined by all.

How would you feel if people were rallying on about you on an internet forum expressing a bunch of half truths in the name of defending good doctrine?

Yes, that does happen, believe it or not. We have even had Mr. Warrens close associate come here and defend his teachings as well. We don't hide from anything. But know this, we defend doctrine, not people. We have examined teachers we like as well, and people find fault with some of their teachings. There are disputable matters, but as things touch on salvation, and prophecy, we will take a stand, and tell others. I get the sense you think these kinds of differences are not important, rather we should seek unity instead. Thats a recipe for the ecumenical to cook, and we ain't that.

And what about the Lord's commandment that we are to love, and that love flows out of the inner reality of the heart? I'm sorry, but when I read some of the things I have head here, I don't feel a sense of love or compassion, or critical discernment as in the Bereans, or a presence of the Spirit. I feel judgement and condemnation of a person that nobody on this board knows.

Is truth....feelings? Come on, we would all give you a big hug, but truth is not always an easy, lovey thing. Mr. Chan himself would tell you to examine his teachings against scripture, against sound doctrine, else he would not be a worthy teacher.

[OnceWasLost]

And one last word about the mission of the board. I think it's good to point out that WOF, Emergent, etc, are labels that have been established and proliferated by people. There is nothing scriptural about any of it because none of it is in the Bible. So I would ask: are you seriously falling back on the guidance of scripture in this forum, or are you just buying into a bunch of inventions designed by Satan to create futher divisions in the church?

The mission of this board, in part, is to be watchmen in these days of unbiblical practices and wrong headed gimmicks. The man you are defending here has also participated in things that have no Scriptural basis. Worse than that it is mysticism and leads to some dark stuff. If you want to watch the whole thing, yes he participates in contemplative lectio reading, entering silence and asking to have God "speak". Subjective, no charge to make sure if you hear God "speak" that what you think you hear is proven in Scripture.

Worse yet people go to these silly touchy feely meetings and never hear God "speak". Then they think God is angry or whatever since He didn't "speak" to them. The people selling this poison will answer to a Holy God for their folly. Chan was one of the readers in this debacle and his lack of understanding of the occultic roots of contemplative tell us even more about him. They did this abomination to the entire book of Ephesians, and it was disgusting. You can watch the entire almost hour long disgrace and yep, Chan is a reader and asks the people to be "silent and ask God to speak"



We have tried to be patient with you and give reasons why we have grave concerns. You dismiss them and make us the problem, well, no more. Continue to defend the indefensible and we will continue to point out the problems, in the hopes that some will see through the smoke. We have watch more than one or two clips and once again you assume much about those here who contend with him. We are not lazy, we have heard and seen plenty. The fact we didn't read his book is not due to laziness we have seen enough to know there is no good reason to do so.

[Steve53]

Well, I guess in my response to this I could just add that I have tried to convey a very simple point that I will make one more time with a little more emphasis and then just let it rest. And that is this: in my comments I was simply trying to convey my belief that it is unjust and unfair to "examine" a pastor's theology on a forum like this almost entirely through one or two video clips that have been posted, plus perhaps a couple of excerpts from the person's writing, combined with some added info about who the pastor associates with. This is what I saw as I read through this thread, just as I have seen with many other pastors criticized on this board.

You would have us put on display every instance of every time the man's teachings are in error just to make the same point? A word to the wise should be sufficient.

I believe that, just as the Bereans were praised because they examined for themselves the things they were taught, as Christians we should have the same attitude with all things. If we don't, we potentially open ourselves up to the possibility that we will unfairly judge or condemn something or someone that we don't really understand.

And as the Bereans examined for themselves, FC's "teachings" have been found wanting.

Did Jesus not say, Judge not, for in the same manner that you judge, you yourself will be judged? How would you feel if people were rallying on about you on an internet forum expressing a bunch of half truths in the name of defending good doctrine?

The context of "judge not" does not apply in this instance as it applies to FC's "teachings."

And what about the Lord's commandment that we are to love, and that love flows out of the inner reality of the heart? I'm sorry, but when I read some of the things I have head here, I don't feel a sense of love or compassion, or critical discernment as in the Bereans, or a presence of the Spirit. I feel judgement and condemnation of a person that nobody on this board knows.

Rebuking bad teaching is done out of a love for the Truth. To do nothing is far more dangerous.

And one last word about the mission of the board. I think it's good to point out that WOF, Emergent, etc, are labels that have been established and proliferated by people. There is nothing scriptural about any of it because none of it is in the Bible. So I would ask: are you seriously falling back on the guidance of scripture in this forum, or are you just buying into a bunch of inventions designed by Satan to create futher divisions in the church?

Discernment is a sword best sharpened by the Word.

I don't imagine I have much of a supportive audience here, so this will be my last post.

It's obvious you like this man. Nothing wrong in that. We are simply pointing out that being a nice guy doesn't mean bad teaching gets a free pass. In your defense of FC you have drawn our attention via general citation to a couple of Biblical concepts and misused those same concepts in an attempt to bolster your position. Misusing Biblical concepts is something that usually occurs as a result of unsound teaching or misunderstanding or a combination of both. Does that simple fact alone not cause you some concern? Perhaps you should examine more carefully some the "teaching" you have come to accept or thought you understood?

There is no need to run and hide from the light of Truth. We can help you if you wish but only and if only you wish it so.

[Hootmon]

Discernment is a sword best sharpened by the Word.

[SaintTexas]

I admittedly don't know much about Francis Chan... but this is just in general; why would anyone, esp. a church leader, report in public how much money they are giving? We are to give our alms in secret and not let our left hand know what our right hand is doing. I just find this curious, though it is a threadjack on my part.

You know what a pastor can do to help their flock love Jesus deeply? Teach the Word and the Word alone, verse by verse, keeping context and know the entire counsel so that you don't confuse your flock with bad doctrine.

This particular subforum is such an incredible blessing and a wealth of knowlege from the mods to the more mature believer who come here and help. We need to be followers of Jesus Christ, not followers or even defenders of men. Chan is public as a teacher and subject to inspection to a higher degree since he wants to teach. The sinner knows as they repent and come to the Lord that they are not good enough to work their way into the presence of God Almighty and need a Saviour. While we are to encourage each other to do good works and to be found rich in them, those works do not rock the foundation of our salvation, which is Jesus Himself. Solid teaching is straight up exposition of the scriptures without twisting or damaging the Word, and there is plenty of example of such a thing in the NT as we work through Acts or Paul's letters, etc. as they requote the OT and explain it and point to the Lord and help us with a response, like Romans 12:1.

Stop falling in love with men. They are a distraction from the One Whom we are to follow and to Whom that kind of affection is due and Who does not need a defense amoung the brethren.