Beth Moore *merged*

[SaintTexas]

I thought she was [pre-trib], but she is not [anymore]. It seems that she may have been years ago. She has referenced William Hendriksen over and over for her Revelation study, talked about the gray areas at this juncture for herself as she has read different commentaries and that she used to study under a "hyper" dispensational doctrine. We went through Revelation Chapters 4 and 5 today, and while she did use the term "rapture" to refer to John's spirit and his vision, no other mention made.

It's disappointing, but a pre-Trib rapture is not dependent on us believing in it or understanding it; it's dependent on trusting the Lord and His work on the cross for our sins, so I will be staying through the class to pray for others and to offer the Pre-trib viewpoint when it's time. She didn't recognize the elders dressed in white with their crowns as the Church/us and talked about the original Greek for the end section in Ch 5 as they are singing a new song about the use of they/we/us. She did a beautiful job with other things.

I brought my Footsteps of the Messiah today for the few who wanted to take a look at it and buy it on their own.

She talked today about the Lord allowing us to be disappointed by people and things showing us how only He can be in the place of preeminence in our lives, and this experience reminds me very much of this experience with her, ironically. The Lord alone to believe, not men.

[bek1]

What year was the above study written? I did her Daniel study in 2007 (it was written not long before) and she was very dispensational and 100% pre-trib rapture in that study. There was nothing "off" in the entire study.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I was talking with a friend who went through the Daniel study, and she had mentioned to me that Beth Moore had said/written (in that study, I believe... or perhaps another) that she was not 100% sure either way (on the topic of eschatology), and that she allows for differences of opinion in this area, because of that.

That's basically how I remember it, though that conversation was a quite a few years ago.

[His Bride]

She's changed over the years.....

[SaintTexas]

I am in Houston. She filmed it last fall beginning in September here at First Baptist. It's an eleven week study, so she finished in November---2009. Her production group made it available for spring study beginning this January. We started February 2nd. This is about as new as it gets.

I had also done some research on Beth's beliefs on this last fall when I couldn't make it into the city in the evenings and the group that I am doing the study with decided to do it this spring. When I did the initial research, what I found on this was that she was a pre-trib rapture believer. She herself said today that she grew up studying under what she called a "hyper" dispensationalist and that one of the things that had been really difficult as she put together the Revelation study the previous 18 months was in studying other commentaries outside what she had always "grew up" under and how some things were not so black and white to her anymore, but gray. This was part of what she was referring to. This was the chapter 4 "Come up here" day, the day where we first see the Church in Heaven dressed for our wedding, casting our crowns. She has changed her mind. She also spent some time on Revelation 5:10 with the them/us/we and the problems with this apparent contradiction (which was part of why she does not see the Church in heaven at this point). If someone has something on this, I would love to have it. I am already on www.biblos.com working on the Greek word study, but I am not getting anywhere quickly with it.

The problem with all of this is that I personally have been studying three years solid on end times eschatology. I spent about 18 months alone on the Rapture timing and whether there was one or not, reading and rereading Revelation, and much time in prayer with the Lord asking Him to lead me through His Word with wisdom and understanding, before I believed in a pre-Trib rapture myself. And I have zero doubts about the timing now. She pulls in much outside (the book we are studying) scripture as she works through the material, but if she no longer believes the Word is showing something at a particular juncture, then she is not going to pull in the supporting scripture at the right time. It's disappointing, more for her because she believed once and has changed her mind, and for those who hold on to her every word and whatever theology she teaches instead of doing their own work with the Holy Spirit leading them through the Word of God (and she did recommend doing the word study for Rev 5:10 today, so I gave the website to do the word study to the class). Far too many people are biblically illiterate anyway. We walk into our churches completely trusting whatever is spoken from the pulpit as true and let the pastors do the work instead of doing as the Bereans and searching the scriptures in Spirit ourselves and relying totally on the Lord. None of this is meant as a criticism of Beth Moore. I don't want to make it sound that way either. Please forgive me if it does. But it is disappointing. But, I know from my own walk with the Lord that if you seek Him, you will find Him.

[bek1]

I am in Houston. She filmed it last fall beginning in September here at First Baptist. It's an eleven week study, so she finished in November---2009. Her production group made it available for spring study beginning this January. We started February 2nd. This is about as new as it gets.

I had also done some research on Beth's beliefs on this last fall when I couldn't make it into the city in the evenings and the group that I am doing the study with decided to do it this spring. When I did the initial research, what I found on this was that she was a pre-trib rapture believer. She herself said today that she grew up studying under what she called a "hyper" dispensationalist and that one of the things that had been really difficult as she put together the Revelation study the previous 18 months was in studying other commentaries outside what she had always "grew up" under and how some things were not so black and white to her anymore, but gray. This was part of what she was referring to. This was the chapter 4 "Come up here" day, the day where we first see the Church in Heaven dressed for our wedding, casting our crowns. She has changed her mind. She also spent some time on Revelation 5:10 with the them/us/we and the problems with this apparent contradiction (which was part of why she does not see the Church in heaven at this point). If someone has something on this, I would love to have it. I am already on www.biblos.com working on the Greek word study, but I am not getting anywhere quickly with it.

The problem with all of this is that I personally have been studying three years solid on end times eschatology. I spent about 18 months alone on the Rapture timing and whether there was one or not, reading and rereading Revelation, and much time in prayer with the Lord asking Him to lead me through His Word with wisdom and understanding, before I believed in a pre-Trib rapture myself. And I have zero doubts about the timing now. She pulls in much outside (the book we are studying) scripture as she works through the material, but if she no longer believes the Word is showing something at a particular juncture, then she is not going to pull in the supporting scripture at the right time. It's disappointing, more for her because she believed once and has changed her mind, and for those who hold on to her every word and whatever theology she teaches instead of doing their own work with the Holy Spirit leading them through the Word of God (and she did recommend doing the word study for Rev 5:10 today, so I gave the website to do the word study to the class). Far too many people are biblically illiterate anyway. We walk into our churches completely trusting whatever is spoken from the pulpit as true and let the pastors do the work instead of doing as the Bereans and searching the scriptures in Spirit ourselves and relying totally on the Lord. None of this is meant as a criticism of Beth Moore. I don't want to make it sound that way either. Please forgive me if it does. But it is disappointing. But, I know from my own walk with the Lord that if you seek Him, you will find Him.

Wow, that is really new. In that case she has changed her views since 2006/2007 when she did Daniel. I remember her analogy thru all of the Daniel study of Israel being put "on hold" (like a hold button on the phone is the picture she used) at the time the Messiah was "cut off" until the time of the signing of the 7 year covenant that starts the tribulation, when at that time (and she would say "after the church is removed") God would take Israel "off hold" and begin His dealings with them again. It sounds like she may be siding with the majority and re-thinking dispensationalism (like much of the seminaries are doing these days....and much of Christianity in general...) And often when people throw out dispensationalism, the rapture gets tossed out right along with it... . We were warned of this in scripture though....it's just sad to see it happening, and especially with people you know love the Lord with a sincere love....but are starting to become (maybe..?) influenced by people rather than the Lord/His Word.

[Lynn]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say, as I don't mean it as a criticism of
B. Moore. I don't know her at all, and have never been to one of the B. Moore studies, just heard others saying that they've gone to her studies, and that they liked them for the most part.

It is indeed quite popular now to abandon the pre-trib position, and to proudly say that "I used to believe that, but don't anymore." In some, there appears to be pride in having 'grown up' beyond this eschatological position. I've had the impression on occasion that the pre-trib position was perceived as naive and immature, child-like, as the speaker uses a patronizing tone while denouncing a 'once held belief'. Not implying, of course, that Ms. Moore did this.
Whenever a para-church ministry seeks to draw members from different denominations, sometimes a more popular position is taken so as not to lose any of
the faithful. Just sayin'

[SaintTexas]

That is a good point. Who knows? She definitely draws from all denominations and welcomes all. I think that the spirit in which you speak of her "graduation" to a different doctrinal stance is not far off from my observation of her on the DVD today and what she said and how she said it. She didn't seem overly arrogant, but she did seem to indicate that she had "grown up" when she opened up her viewpoint into other commentaries than just what she had been raised on....if that makes any sense. I just felt sorry for her losing her belief in this and feeling the comfort of a pre-Trib rapture.

This will be my last Bible study that is from any author or speaker.

[billiefan2000]

lynn is right


the church I go to on some sunday's is into somewhat amillenialist teachings. (I am sometimes at other churches due to my schedule or other things such as mission work or things I gotta be at in another part of town, in which I go to a good church nearby where I have to be)


btw: the sunday church I go to sometimes has some very good sermons but I disagree with them on end time views.


in fact:

one person even said this recent sunday in sunday school, while a brief talk on bible prophecy : "I used to believe that (pre-trib rapture), but don't anymore."


so lynn is right: It is indeed quite popular now to abandon the pre-trib position, and to proudly say that


btw:

the GARBC church I go to for wed. night bible studies is a pre-trib rapture church and I am a pre-trib rapture believer

[Gilgal]

Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say, as I don't mean it as a criticism of
B. Moore. I don't know her at all, and have never been to one of the B. Moore studies, just heard others saying that they've gone to her studies, and that they liked them for the most part.

It is indeed quite popular now to abandon the pre-trib position, and to proudly say that "I used to believe that, but don't anymore." In some, there appears to be pride in having 'grown up' beyond this eschatological position. I've had the impression on occasion that the pre-trib position was perceived as naive and immature, child-like, as the speaker uses a patronizing tone while denouncing a 'once held belief'. Not implying, of course, that Ms. Moore did this.
Whenever a para-church ministry seeks to draw members from different denominations, sometimes a more popular position is taken so as not to lose any of
the faithful. Just sayin'

well said Lynn. I agree with you.

[GloryBound]

This is helpful to know. We've done many Beth Moore studies but for the End Times study I put together a variety of material. Much more time consuming than when someone else does all the work but very worth it.

[FreeWater]

Beth Moore is in and promotes the Be Still DVD which baically is a promotion of contemplative prayer

Getting involved in mystical spirituality will derail you everytime

[His Bride]

Beth Moore is in and promotes the Be Still DVD which baically is a promotion of contemplative prayer

Getting involved in mystical spirituality will derail you everytime

[bek1]

It is indeed quite popular now to abandon the pre-trib position, and to proudly say that "I used to believe that, but don't anymore." In some, there appears to be pride in having 'grown up' beyond this eschatological position. I've had the impression on occasion that the pre-trib position was perceived as naive and immature, child-like, as the speaker uses a patronizing tone while denouncing a 'once held belief'. Not implying, of course, that Ms. Moore did this.
Whenever a para-church ministry seeks to draw members from different denominations, sometimes a more popular position is taken so as not to lose any of
the faithful. Just sayin'

This is what I have observed over the years too. Reminds me of 2 Peter 3: 3-5 where it talks about people scoffing at the idea of the Lord's return with the reason being the long wait...

[carol1948]

In several books I've read on end times [all concluding that pre-trib is the only one that satisfies all scripture] the authors have indicated that mid-trib and post-trib rapture theories were more popular than pre-trib. But from what has just been written here that does not seem to be the case. I haven't studied the bases for mid- and post-trib, never really had a need or desire to. Many Christians I know don't really have an opinion on the timing relative to the tribulation, primarily because they haven't studied it at all and already know they are saved.

There are many really intelligent Christian eschatologists that are not pre-tribbers, and that's okay with me. We will all be raptured at the same time anyway. I tend to think having these different views is what keeps us searching the Word. Doesn't it say "iron sharpens iron"?

I've done several Beth Moore studies, but have not done the latest one which must be the one mentioned. Currently we are in the Patriarchs.

[Gideon's Sword]

I have to agree with you carol. Why is it that we get so dissapointed if someone doesn't believe like we believe. Do you really think JESUS would not rapture someone if they don't believe pre trib? Come on. GOD's mercy and grace is far greater than that.

[pegmo]

What year was the above study written? I did her Daniel study in 2007 (it was written not long before) and she was very dispensational and 100% pre-trib rapture in that study. There was nothing "off" in the entire study.

Goodness, I beg to differ on nothing "off" in the entire study. Daniel is the last study I did of Beth's and I don't think I will do another.

Beth was really pushing "unity" in the study, including false unity with other "gospels". Do you not recall that she had the local Catholic community up on the platform and very determinedly declared them sisters in Christ? No consideration for the denial of the finished work and sufficiency of Jesus' work on the cross by the Catholic Church. No consideration for the rampant idolatry in the Catholic religion. No consideration for the use of other mediators, a different plan of salvation, a different authority than the bible, the replacement of Jesus Christ with the Pope and the replacement of the Holy Spirit who teaches all Truth with the Magesterium. No consideration of salvation by works and through the requirement of their sacraments. No consideration of the ongoing sacrifice for sin in the Mass and the payment for our own sin through purgatory. And no consideration of the Eucharist as their Jesus and the source of their grace which would be no grace at all.

Beth is a wonderful teacher in many areas (I have done 9 of her studies), but on this point, please be discerning. With any teacher, be discerning about false unity. We are called to contend for the saving gospel of Jesus Christ, and false unity makes the gospel a secondary issue - and it should be primary for all those bought by the blood of Jesus.

[Comeuphither]

Beth Moore is in and promotes the Be Still DVD which baically is a promotion of contemplative prayer

Getting involved in mystical spirituality will derail you everytime

I agree!

[His Bride]

Something keeps bothering me when I read this thread and I think I have put my finger on it...


Beth Moore's decision to reject the pre-Tribulation Rapture is fairly recent, and though I may disagree with her, I am much more concerned about the way she has embraced ecumenical unity. She has great influence on Christian women through her popular studies, and if they are not discerning, they will be deceived.

[SaintTexas]

She has embraced ecumenical unity probably (this is my opinion) as a by-product of her popularity. There are plenty of Catholic women who want to study the Lord's Word and who like Beth because she has a huge personality, which is both a plus and a minus. The Word can be obscured by someone's big personality, and people can end up following the teacher and not Christ. And their following can greatly affect the teacher's humility.

I am not disappointed that Beth does not believe as I do. I am disappointed for the loss of her belief in a pre-Trib rapture and for the thousands of people she will influence with her teaching. Many who did believe in a pre-Trib rapture may question their belief. Many who have never heard of the Rapture may never question her teaching and search the scriptures for themselves. I don't think anyone wrote down the website I did a quick shout-out on for the word study she recommended we do. They trust her. That is where my disappointment is. We are to comfort one another with the Rapture as believers, right? Any other timeline of the Rapture is not a comfort, correct? I am prepared to be persecuted today, right now, because the Word tells me that they hated Christ and will hate me as His follower, even martyred for Him, but understanding what time we live in, I have the privilege of understanding and have expectation that the Rapture is for my generation, unless I die before it happens.

I have loved Beth, and the Esther study was excellent, but like I said, this experience and the last month of finding out how many errant teachers I have read and heard has made me seriously rethink any reading outside my Bible for serious study. This is the last one, and I am staying for the other women there who might need some pointing, not for myself. I want to be about the Lord's business while I am waiting for Him to come get me.