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Thread: Ishmael father of the Arabs?

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    Question Ishmael father of the Arabs?

    I have always been told that because of Abraham and Sarah's impatience and their attempt to help God with his promise that Abraham would have a son, that Ishmael was the result and that he was the father of the Arab nation that even now 4,000 years later are a thorn in the side of Israel... this made perfect sense to me and I was about to teach it to my youth group kids but this article that I stumbled across by someone that claims to be Christian is saying that Ishmael being the Father of the Arabs is a lie put forth by the Muslims in their attempt to have some sort of claim on Father Abraham and that Ishmael is in actuality the father of the Egyptians.... this doesnt make sense to me at all but I want to be sure before I teach my youth kids that Ishmael is the father of the Arabs. Here is the article:




    Ishmael, Father of the Arabs???
    Peace to all my dear brothers & sisters!

    -

    Muslims claim that Ishmael, the son of Abraham is the father of the Arabs therefore proving that Ishmael is the forefather of their prophet, Mohammad.

    And unfortunately, as a result of this, non-Muslims have taken this claim from them as a fact without doing any research of their own.

    Any intelligent person will understand that this is nothing but a big lie!

    Here is why...

    -

    Genesis 16:1
    Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

    Genesis 16:3
    And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

    - Hagar was an Egyptian and a slave of Sarai, Abraham's wife. She must have been racially different from Abram (Abraham) and his wife, Sarai (Sarah).

    Note: Egyptians were and are still considered as Africans (not Arabs) since Egypt is a part of the continent of Africa.

    Genesis 16:15
    And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.

    Genesis 16:16
    And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

    - Hagar was the mother of Ishmael. Therefore, Ishmael was half Egyptian.

    Genesis 12:1
    [ The Call of Abram ] The LORD had said to Abram, 'Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

    Genesis 11:31
    Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Haran, they settled there.

    - Abraham had left his country (now known as Iraq) and went to the land of Canaan (now known as Israel). Thus, Abraham and his wife were Iraqis which are NOT the same as Egyptians.

    Genesis 21:21
    While he was living in the wilderness of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

    - Ishmael's wife was Egyptian. Also, he was living in the wilderness of Paran which if you were to look on the map that I have attached to this e-mail, you would see that Paran is in Egypt close to Israel.

    Genesis 21:14
    And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

    - Hagar and his son, Ishmael had departed Abraham and his family (Sarah and Isaac).

    Genesis 37:28
    So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt.

    Genesis 39:1
    [ Joseph and Potiphar's Wife ] Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. Potiphar, an Egyptian who was one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain of the guard, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had taken him there.

    - The story of Joseph proves that the Ishmaelites were living in Egypt since those Ishmaelite traders took Joseph and all their possesions to Egypt to sell them.

    Genesis 17:20
    And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

    Genesis 16:12
    This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives.'

    - The Creator promised Ishmael to be fruitful and become the father of 12 tribes which will become a great nation. This was because of the love that The Creator had for Abraham. Also, The Creator predicted that Ishmael would be rebellious and hostile to all of his relatives (descendents of Isaac). This proves that Ishmael was NOT a prophet.

    Genesis 20:13-16, 18
    13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and KEDAR, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

    14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,

    15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:

    16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

    18 Ishmael's descendants occupied the region from Havilah to Shur, which is east of Egypt in the direction of Asshur. There they lived in open hostility toward all their relatives.

    - Ishmael had 12 sons who each of them became a leader of their own tribe. They had settled in the east of Egypt close to Israel. This proves that the Ishmaelites were living as Egyptians (Africans) and not as Arabs! This also fulfills one of the the prophecies in Genesis 17:20 (see above).

    Exodus 1:11
    11 So the Egyptians made the Israelites their slaves. They appointed brutal slave drivers over them, hoping to wear them down with crushing labor. They forced them to build the cities of Pithom and Rameses as supply centers for the king.

    Exodus 1:13-14
    13 So the Egyptians worked the people of Israel without mercy.
    14 They made their lives bitter, forcing them to mix mortar and make bricks and do all the work in the fields. They were ruthless in all their demands.

    - The Egyptians who were the sons of Ishmael took the Israelites (descendents of Isaac) as slaves for 400 years and were severely hostile to them which fulfills the other prophecy in Genesis 17:20 (see above). The Egyptians (Ishmaelites) were the great nation as prophesized. They had built the great pyramids which no scientist till today can explain how. They were extremely weathly and had a great army at that time.

    -

    In conclusion, Ishmael is not the father of the Arabs let alone Mohammad who was a Meccan (Saudi Arabian) but rather he was the father of the Egyptians. Mohammad has no connection to Abraham whatsoever.

    Peace.




    I feel his logic that just because Ishmael settled within the vicinity of Egypt that he is therefore the father of the Egyptians in absurd.... also I dont really understand why its so bad that the Muslims claim a part of Abraham through Ishmael, Ishmael was not the son of promise and he was essentially illigitmate which would give no credance at all to Islam as the true way to God... and so what if Ishmael was the father of Mohammad, does that mean anything at all? Does that suddenly mean that Islam is true? All that tells me is thats what happens when you try to do God's job we mess it up terribly and cause a man that will deceive millions to be born... so yeah any thoughts?

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    The logic is unsound. The bible clearly identifies them as Ishmaelites rather than Egyptians. The fact that they lived near Egypt does not make them Egyptians.

    Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham: And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.
    Genesis 25:12-18 (KJV)
    Ishmael Ish'mael (whom God hears).
    1. The son of Abraham by Hagar the Egyptian his concubine; born when Abraham was fourscore and six years old. Gene 16:15, 16 (b.c. 1910.) Ishmael was the first-born of his father. He was born in Abraham's house when he dwelt in the plain of Mamre; and on the institution of the covenant of circumcision, was circumcised, he being then thirteen years old Gene 17:26 With the institution of the covenant, God renewed his promise respecting Ishmael. He does not again appear in the narrative until the weaning of Isaac. At the great feast made in celebration of the weaning, "Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had borne unto Abraham, mocking," and urged Abraham to cast him and his mother out. Comforted by the renewal of God's promise to make of Ishmael a great nation, Abraham sent them away, and they departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. His mother took Ishmael a wife out of the land of Egypt." Gene 21:9-21 This wife of Ishmael was the mother of the twelve sons and one daughter. Of the later life of Ishmael we know little. He was present with Isaac at the burial of Abraham. He died at the age of 137 years. Gene 25:17, 18 The sons of Ishmael peopled the north and west of the Arabian peninsula, and eventually formed the chief element of the Arab nation, the wandering Bedouin tribes. They are now mostly Mohammedans who look to him as their spiritual father, as the Jews look to Abraham. Their language, which is generally acknowledged to have been the Arabic community so called, has been adopted with insignificant exceptions throughout Arabia. The term "Ishmaelite" occur on three occasions: Gene 37:25, 27, 28; 39:1; Judg 8:24; Psal 83:6
    —Smith's Bible Dictionary
    Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. - Charles H. Spurgeon

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    Well here is something he totally missed. Esau the older brother of Jacob settled in Edom. Aren't they considered Arabs and they would be descendants from Abraham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsy View Post
    Well here is something he totally missed. Esau the older brother of Jacob settled in Edom. Aren't they considered Arabs and they would be descendants from Abraham.
    Interesting that Esau married an Ishmaelite ...

    When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan; And that Jacob obeyed his father and his mother, and was gone to Padanaram; And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father; Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.
    Genesis 28:6-9 (KJV)
    Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. - Charles H. Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anddra View Post
    Interesting that Esau married an Ishmaelite ...
    Well there you go. I hadn't realised that.

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    It's so easy to accidentally overlook or forget so many of these details. But these details leave me in awe of God.


    Pray without ceasing. 1 Thessalonians 5:17

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    Inside there's a thin woman trying to get out.
    I'm keeping her sedated with chocolate

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    All Arabs descend from Ishmael in some form or another. Abraham did father Ishmael. He was blessed, his children blessed, and made many a nation because God's word is absolute. He was not the child of promise from God however. Therein lies the terrible tension in the Middle East today. The Arabs claim they are the children of promise, when it is the Jews, by Issac that are the promised of God. Ishmael is the result of Sarah and Abraham trying to accomplish what God had already ordained.

    In an ideal world, the displaced (read: kicked out and displaced from other Arab nations) Arabs would realize the rest of the entire world is a really great place and they're free to settle anywhere instead of trying to claim the land of the Jews. Great way to rouse the anger of God! Sadly, even established Arab nations refuse to accept their own people and would rather use the situation to wreak havoc and turmoil on the Jews even at the expense of their own. God has blessed the Arab people for the sake of Abraham. They are descended of Abraham indeed. Why they opt instead to curse themselves by raging and waring against God's people the Jews, their half-brothers, is really baffling. Surely Satan has a grip in their political affairs. Doesn't help that most of them worship an idol.

    Oh Lord, why did these people become so confused despite their inspired beginning? Did not your angel save Hagar and Ishmael in the desert? You had mercy on them Lord and did not wish them to die for you are loving and kind and full of compassion Father. Why have they lost their way and worship idols? Why do they hate each other and hate your people Israel even more? Might you Lord Jesus reveal to them Yourself? Won't you tear down their idol and soften their hearts to the truth? Your will be done Father. May the true children of Abraham come to accept the God of their father, the one True God, and His provision in the person of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah and the Son of the Living God. Amen.

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    Interesting thread to read. Especially appreciated the last post with the prayer at the end. I think I'll copy it and pray that way for the people of Islam.
    I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
    Galatians 2:20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Accepted View Post
    This is what I was also thinking... don't most translations read "He will be a wild donkey of a man..." What a description!
    The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess. I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin. Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by macrohard View Post
    I think you are quite correct in the thought of a trinity. But I think there is much delusion going on here, as Satan is nowhere represented as a "trinity". There is only one "Trinity" (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That really is what Muslims are doing when throwing their seven stones at each pillar and what Satan has them doing in this delusion.....
    Yep. They are not casting their stones at satan. They are casting their stones at the One True God.... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post
    The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess.

    I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin.

    Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.

    Just remember that just because someone did something in the bible and they weren't instantly struck dead doesn't mean God was ok with it. God never said that He was ok with sleeping with concubines or slaves or having many wives even though it was ok in that culture (just as it is in ours). God's rule has always been one man and one woman, He doesn't change. It is society that changes. So what Hagar did was adultery whether or not she was commanded to by Sarah. She could have refused and paid the price but she didn't. She was just as guilty as Abraham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shonsu View Post
    Just remember that just because someone did something in the bible and they weren't instantly struck dead doesn't mean God was ok with it. God never said that He was ok with sleeping with concubines or slaves or having many wives even though it was ok in that culture (just as it is in ours). God's rule has always been one man and one woman, He doesn't change. It is society that changes. So what Hagar did was adultery whether or not she was commanded to by Sarah. She could have refused and paid the price but she didn't. She was just as guilty as Abraham.
    True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

    I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
    Last edited by Steve53; September 27th, 2015 at 04:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post
    True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

    I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
    I guess that's my point. You said that it wasn't Hagar's fault but she certainly had some fault in it. She should have refused and died.
    Last edited by Steve53; September 27th, 2015 at 04:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post
    The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess. I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin. Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post
    True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

    I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
    Tiffany, I suggest you revisit your thoughts on this topic as they are not at all in keeping with God plans or His nature. Nor are the implied and blatant comments regarding Abraham and Sarah accurate in all that you say. Abraham was no ogre who treated his slaves with disdain and loathing. Abraham for example, pleaded with God on Ishmael's behalf but God had other plans for Ishmael -
    Genesis 21:9-13
    And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    Tiffany, I suggest you revisit your thoughts on this topic as they are not at all in keeping with God plans or His nature. Nor are the implied and blatant comments regarding Abraham and Sarah accurate in all that you say. Abraham was no ogre who treated his slaves with disdain and loathing. Abraham for example, pleaded with God on Ishmael's behalf but God had other plans for Ishmael -
    Genesis 21:9-13
    And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”
    Exactly Tiffany, you have a good heart and are always quick to jump to the aid of those who you perceive as being victims of injustices: Muslims, etc. However, when faced with the truth, you usually come around, after some convincing and research on your part, to that truth- for example, the "refugees." This is a pattern of yours and I'm not saying it is a bad thing; like I said you have a big heart and so much want to see the good in everyone.

    However!!! In this case, I hope you quickly come around to what Steve is saying because you are treading on dangerous ground in what you are saying and thinking about the character of our Lord and His word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post
    The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess. I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin. Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.
    I can understand why you'd feel that way, but there are righteous reasons behind all of it.

    Just remember, the Lord sees all times as they happen. He knows what kind of person everyone is going to be even before they are born. That does not mean He makes them that way, but rather He sees. None of us asked to be born, but once we are, there is a set of expectations for us as humans. God took care of Hagar and Ishmael, and Abraham's descendants of Isaac didn't get out of reaping the "benefits" of Abraham's attempt to force God's hand (by sleeping with Hagar). Also, Abraham and Sarah did have faith and they found favor with God, but they were still human, and tried to fulfill God's promises in a human fashion.

    Don't forget that was a different culture in a different place; Hagar would have been over the moon to bear Abraham's child and it was a very common thing to do when the lady of the house was infertile. Also, remember that God dealt with nations in the past as groups, hence the nation of Israel, and the tribe, the Ishmaelites, the Edomites, etc... often descended from one man. In this church age, He deals with individuals in a much more direct way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    Tiffany, I suggest you revisit your thoughts on this topic as they are not at all in keeping with God plans or His nature. Nor are the implied and blatant comments regarding Abraham and Sarah accurate in all that you say. Abraham was no ogre who treated his slaves with disdain and loathing. Abraham for example, pleaded with God on Ishmael's behalf but God had other plans for Ishmael -
    Genesis 21:9-13
    And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

    Thanks for your opinion. But I still stick with mine. Having slaves was a sin, IS sin. I don't care if you are as sweet as peach pie to them, they are people, deserve freedom, do not belong to ANYONE but God, and it's wrong. I'm not so closed minded that I think Abraham was perfect. He was no better, no worse than me, just a human, just a sinner. Was he blessed, that God picked him, protected him, and after His sin God still kept His promise to Abraham? (Because of Abraham's sin Ishmael was born, but if he and Sarah would have just trusted in God, Isaac would have been born and this was what God's plan was, not Ishmael.) The answer, yes, Abraham was blessed by God and a good man (as good as is possible for any man to be). Still though, Abraham and Sarah sinned majorly. And just like I do, they probably sinned all the time.... by having slaves, multiple wives, on, on, on. God was merciful and forgave them, still kept His promise to them regardless of their sin, and so He said to Abraham what you quoted above, this: “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

    I trust in God over trusting in myself. His ways are the right ways, even if I don't understand them, and there is plenty I don't understand. My human mind thinks, "Oh that is so mean. The entire thing that happened, not right." That being said, I trust in God. I still have sympathy though, for Hagar and for Ishmael, as neither of them asked for what happened or had much of a choice in the matter.

    God let Hagar and Ishmael live. Ishmael is basically the father of all the Muslims, and Isaac the Jews. Abraham is the father of them both. These two sons are an example of the choice everyone has, to walk with God and follow Him, or to take the other path which leads only to death and destruction. This path, the path the Muslims have taken is FALSE. It's a lie. Muslim's basically take what the Bible says, replace Isaac with Ishmael, and claim it happened the opposite way.

    All this, not necessarily God's plan, but due to Abraham's sin. God had this plan though, because He knew all before it happened. And He knew Abraham and Sarah would not have faith and would sin, knew before they did it themselves that they would do it. But in His mercy, He still forgave them, still stuck to His promise to Abraham. Abraham wasn't perfect (and my mind doesn't need to believe that to keep in line with God's plans or His nature), but he did love God. It's just that he, like all of us, messed up.

    God loved Ishmael too. He loves the Muslims too. Even though His promise in the OT is to His people Israel, God still loves Ishmael's line just as much as He loves Isaac's. He wants nothing more than for them to turn to Him, to accept His Son as their Lord and Savior.

    And so, I disagree with you on this. But that doesn't mean I disagree with you on everything. Not only that, but I thank you, because I have learned much from you, from Kliska, from iSong, from all the mods who are here now or who have been mods in the past. Because of God leading me to this place, I have matured so much in my faith, learned so much. This place is my church, my family. This place has given me so much knowledge, strengthened and deepened my relationship with Jesus so much, that I now no longer bow out of a discussion or immediately apologize to another person when they disagree with my opinion. Now I pray about it, and I stick to my guns on what I feel that Jesus is telling me to stand for. I have God to thank for that, and the fact that He led me here to this place to help me mature and strengthen me in my relationship with Him. I thank God, and I also thank all of you who are members or in leadership here.


    ETA: I do thank all of you, Steve, Shonsu, and mel. And thank you also Kliska. Everything that you said in your post, I agree with you. You are right. God sees all. I don't. And you are also right in that Abraham's people certainly did not "get out of" or suffer no consequences for their sin. From then until now, Ishmael's line HATES with a passion Isaac's line. Their entire reason for living is to try and kill and wipe Isaac's line completely from the planet. These are consequences that go WAY back to the decision made to try and "help" God with His promise, to create a line of people from Abraham who are as numerous as the stars. Kliska, you are blessed with approaching people in a very human way that does not put them on the defense and I can tell in all that you post to me and others that you truly do care so much about all of us and you have a very big heart (kind of like I am in that I'm always ready to rush to defend and aid who I perceive as being victimized, or not treated fairly or respectfully; you are right mel in the comment you made about me, I am like this and I do recognize that about me). Thank you, all of you, I truly mean that from the bottom of my heart.

    Maybe it's just that there was confusion in what I said, like I was questioning God, implying that I believe that what God did was wrong. I don't think God was wrong. I was questioning Him because I don't understand everything, and I am NO ONE to question God. Still, I do have questions and thoughts that enter my mind that I think.... "That seems wrong or that seems mean. That doesn't seem fair." I'm not trying to say that I am right in those thoughts or that I know more than God or that God should have done things any other way than He did them. But just that I'm human and I see things in a very human way verses seeing them as God sees them. Someday all of my questions, all of our questions will be answered by Him. We will understand the "whys" behind everything. Until then, I only want to trust God. I want to have faith in Him and I do have faith in Him, that even though I don't understand everything, He does. I am sorry if I came across like I was questioning God or that I was coming across like God was wrong. He's not. He is RIGHT. I am WRONG. I may not understand it, but my faith is strong and He is, always has been, and will forever be in control. And His ways are the right ways. Love all of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post


    True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

    I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
    Hi Tiffanybw, I understand how we all question what seems to be the unfairness of life at times. The Bible does give some indication of why Hagar and Ishmael were not entirely innocent in causing Sarah to want to get rid of them. In (Genesis 16:4) it is revealed that Hagar despised Sarah for Sarah's barrenness. This must have been an attitude which Hagar kept in her heart as she "served" Sarah, but behind Sarah's back, Hagar likely continued to mockingly look down on Sarah. Hagar's attitude carried over to her son Ishmael, who later had no problem mocking a much younger Isaac. (Genesis 21:9) If I were Sarah, I would probably want to get rid of such a nasty servant too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
    Hi Tiffanybw, I understand how we all question what seems to be the unfairness of life at times. The Bible does give some indication of why Hagar and Ishmael were not entirely innocent in causing Sarah to want to get rid of them. In (Genesis 16:4) it is revealed that Hagar despised Sarah for Sarah's barrenness. This must have been an attitude which Hagar kept in her heart as she "served" Sarah, but behind Sarah's back, Hagar likely continued to mockingly look down on Sarah. Hagar's attitude carried over to her son Ishmael, who later had no problem mocking a much younger Isaac. (Genesis 21:9) If I were Sarah, I would probably want to get rid of such a nasty servant too.
    I agree with you. None of them were innocent. We are born into this world with sin. An 18 month old baby when told no by mom and dad understands they are being told no, that they should not do what they are being forbidden to do, and they look their parents in the eye and then defiantly toddle on over to do whatever it is that their sinful heart desires. May be a baby, but not innocent.

    Just imagining the situation, like if I was there, I could imagine feelings of inadequacy on Sarah's part. She felt inadequate and a failure that she could not bear Abraham children. She thought she had a great idea in offering him her servant, Hagar, but didn't turn out to be such a great idea.

    Once Hagar had Abraham's one and only son, I'm sure that made her feel very important. I'm sure also, that because she was the mother of Abraham's one and only son, that she was held in high esteem by all. I can see Sarah being very jealous, as she has her husband's love but can not bear him children, how all she wants is to be like Hagar, be able to bear her husband's children.

    And then there is Hagar. She feels superior to Sarah because she could give Abraham the one thing Sarah could not, sons. However, Hagar saw how Abraham loved Sarah and so she was most likely very jealous that even though she did have Abraham's son, she did not have his love. I'm sure she probably rubbed it in Sarah's face every chance she got, maybe even openly mocked her, because she was secure in the fact that she had Abraham's only heir.

    Along comes Isaac.... and everything changes. Hagar is no longer held in such high esteem as she was before because Abraham now has a son, a righteous and true heir. Abraham is so happy because, not that he does not love Ishmael, he does, but now he has a son Isaac by Sarah, his true wife and the one whom he truly loves.

    Those two boys probably grew up with such sibling rivalry, and in such chaos. Hagar probably told Ishmael that he was better than Isaac because he was the first born son. Sarah probably told Isaac that he was wanted for so long... promised to them by God for so long.... and that he was so special and better than Ishmael because he was the fulfillment of God's promise to them, not Ishmael. Because of this those two boys most likely grew up hating each other.

    Definitely no innocent parties. And this is why, not for me to decide, what is or is not fair. My position is under God, not over Him, and I shouldn't have questioned. All the same, I did. It seems unfair. But my ways are not God's ways, and it is not for me to question Him. It is for me to faith in Him and trust Him, to comply with His ways verses espousing my own, for He is the only one without sin, the only one who truly is perfect.

    Thank you for understanding me. I wasn't trying to come across as some people took it to mean. I'm sorry to everyone for not making myself more clear in what I posted.


    Just thinking: From way back then, to this day.... Ishmael's descendants are bitter about what happened. They are bitter to the point they tried to reverse things and change the truth, exchange the roles and births of Ishmael and Isaac. They celebrate Eid (I think it is called and this is to celebrate when Abraham almost sacrificed his son Ishmael but then God provided the sacrifice). They throw rocks, they say at Satan, but at THREE pillars. These three pillars represent The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, NOT satan. They believe lies, tried to change history to suit themselves, and even though they don't know it, they are praying to Satan, to the lies he has them believing, and blaspheming God. Satan is their god, the god of the lies they believe in, not the God of the Bible. They were so bitter that they twisted and turned everything inside and out. It's true, they are brother's, the Muslims and the Jews. But they hate each other. And neither of them knows the One True God, because neither recognizes God becoming man, coming to this earth to save and redeem us as a newborn baby, taking OUR sentence for OUR guilt, for we all are guilty, covering our sin and guilt with His Blood, not a sheep, not a goat, HIS Blood, God's Blood. And neither brother acknowledges this. How broken must God's heart be?

    I pray for them. And I do stand with Israel and just pray that those who haven't yet acknowledged that their Messiah has already come, a King, but born as a newborn baby, poor as dirt, in a farm stable, who they crucified, who died for them, I pray that they realize and that they repent. And pray for Muslim's also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiffanybw View Post
    I agree with you. None of them were innocent. We are born into this world with sin. An 18 month old baby when told no by mom and dad understands they are being told no, that they should not do what they are being forbidden to do, and they look their parents in the eye and then defiantly toddle on over to do whatever it is that their sinful heart desires. May be a baby, but not innocent.
    You would condemn the child to the lake of fire?

    Tiffany I am again asking you to revisit some of the statements you have made regarding this topic and especially your determinations and assignations of what constitutes culpable sin in God's eyes.

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    You would condemn the child to the lake of fire?

    Tiffany I am again asking you to revisit some of the statements you have made regarding this topic and especially your determinations and assignations of what constitutes culpable sin in God's eyes.

    I think that every sin is culpable sin in God's eyes. No, I would not condemn the child to the lake of fire. Nor you. Nor me. Nor Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, Ishmael. We're all of us the same. Sinners saved by grace. Sinners saved by Jesus Christ. We stood guilty before we were even put on trial. But it didn't matter. Because Jesus came for us. He said to The Judge, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. They are ALL of them, sinners. And I'd like to take their place, I'd like to take the place of the 18 month old infant, of Steve, of Tiffany, of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, Ishmael, and of all of humanity. Father, I will accept their sentence, their punishment. All they need do is accept me and my sacrifice.

    I don't know what you want me to revisit. We all stand guilty. I am guilty. And still, I have the gall to question God, His reasoning, in what He decided to do about Abraham's sin. Like I said if you read my posts above, I shouldn't have questioned it (not saying you didn't read; or that you did; really just trying not to argue but still am not going to say to you that I did wrong in posting what I did; I had, I have this thought; But from my first post on I said that I cast that thought aside because God's ways are not my ways; that what I think and feel is very human, very sinful; what He thinks and feels is right). Anyways, none the less, I did have the thought. I'd be lying to you (and sinning by lying) if I told you I never thought it. I voiced that thought, the thought that I had. Voicing the thought makes me no more guilty than anyone else. I simply acknowledge that I don't understand all of God's ways. I AM a sinner. I do have sinful thoughts that I can not control. What I can control, is acting on those thoughts, my deeds. The thoughts themselves, there are so many I've had that are anything but Christian, anything but inspired by Jesus because they are not. They are just pure sin. And since I was born with it, not much I can do about it, other than what I already have, which is accept the sacrifice of God's Son Jesus Christ. I am HIS. I do have faith. I DO trust Him. I will mess up every day between today and the day that I die or am Raptured, but I KNOW, I am not mistaken in my beliefs, He has forgiven me, and I am saved and will spend eternity in Heaven, receive my perfect mind and body from Him, the one He originally intended for me to have. The one without fault. The one without sin. The one that is perfect, like He is.

    I don't understand. Where are you going with this? I still feel the same. Abraham and Sarah sinned. They did not have faith that God would keep His promise to Abraham, and so they enlisted Hagar to "help" God keep His promise. This was sin. The simple fact, that even if treated as royalty, that Hagar was their slave, not a person with a choice but a piece of property, this was sin. Still is. God doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It's all of us people that have the problem. Our pride. Our wanting to prove ourselves right on everything. Our wanting to save face. Our wanting so badly to scream to the rooftops... "I am right and you are mistaken."

    No one is right. If we are human, we ARE mistaken. And this is why God sent His Son to save us, to bear our punishment for our sins.



    ETA: I won't stomp my foot at you with a smiley guy. I won't pretend to delight in being right. Because I wasn't right. I was wrong for questioning God in the first place. But where you disagreed with me, not because I was questioning God but because I guess that you found my opinions of Abraham and Sarah, that I was stating falsehoods about them, that you didn't like what I had to say about them because they were really nice to their slaves. (Forgive me if I am misinterpreting but this is how I took it.) I disagree with that. Abraham and me, we are like two peas in a pod, we are both evil sinners who at times find it difficult to trust that God will keep His promises. We both think that we have some right to question GOD, who created us and knew us before He formed us. We are both sinners. We are both wrong. (Quote from you that made me think this: "Nor are the implied and blatant comments regarding Abraham and Sarah accurate in all that you say. Abraham was no ogre who treated his slaves with disdain and loathing. Abraham for example, pleaded with God on Ishmael's behalf but God had other plans for Ishmael -
    Genesis 21:9-13")

    I'm not right. You are not right. None of us people are right. God is right. I flush my pride down the toilet and right now state that I am very wrong, when it comes to many things, I'm wrong.


    Edited yet again: I'm wrong. I don't want to be right. I don't want to argue. Here is what I wrote in my first post, Quote: "Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways." Even though I voiced my thoughts, I wrote that I trust His ways, His thoughts, not my own. I don't know why I seem to instigate so much drama, with my view and beliefs, but I really don't mean to. I don't want to be banned from this forum. I love it here. I've learned so much here. I've said many times, I view this place as my church and my family. I especially feel threatened because you are a moderator and I'm standing up for what I believe in. It's ok if you think I'm mistaken. I don't think I am. I stand by what I've written in this post. I'm not going to back down just because it's a moderator disagreeing with me, telling me that I'm not thinking according to God's plan (not sure as to exactly what you said). First and foremost, no matter the consequences, I will stand up for God. My heart would be broken to be banned from here, because this place is a part of my spiritual life. Still, though, I'd rather be banned than to not stand for what I feel the Lord is speaking to me to stand for. I think you would do the same. I think we are on the same team but that probably you and me both have misinterpreted what each other is trying to say. I don't even know that I understand the entirety of what you were trying to say in your last post to me.

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