Easy Street USA

[TimothyK]

As the OP states here, her concern is pointed out in the questions she has asked.

The article "Easy Street USA" speaks from the Dominion Now or Kingdom Now teachings. This is indeed Apostasy, so this post is in the correct forum, in my understanding.
Dominion Now/Kingdom Now theology believes(please correct me if I'm wrong) that it is the duty of Born-again Christians to fix the worlds ills and make the world right before God and that Jesus Christ won't come back to retrieve us in the rapture until we do this.
I agree that this author of the article is confusing the visible with the invisible church. This is causing the confusion, because one has nothing to do with the other. One works according to the promptings of the flesh, the other works according to the promptings of the Holy Spirit of God.

This is not true. You are correct in your description of the Dominion/Kingdom Now teachings, but this is not what the author is teaching. The author is not confusing the physical and the spiritual church, he's speaking in general about America's population as a whole. It might sound a little harsh, but not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is one. They may go through the motions but then at the same time indulge heresies and things that are decidedly not Christian. Some church goers have never truly asked Jesus Christ into their lives!

The author is warning against easy "christianity" and warning folks to check their walk to see if it's genuine. Would you be willing to be martyred, to die for your faith in Christ as it is so in some countries? If not, you might want to check your walk. Persecution has the effect of separating the true believers from the false. If you don't really believe and hold to something, you're not going to risk life and limb for it. America has never experienced any kind of persecution like this. Do folks on easy street even realize the terrible turn around going on right now in our country? Or are they too caught up in the feel good itching ears philosophy?

These are the Kingdom now crowds and other heretics who think everything is just peachy! Easy believism, prosperity gospels, all manners of cults who say they have "god" at their center. He warns against these! The author is warning the readers of this impending judgment and the possible persecution that will surely come to pass if America as a collective doesn't return to the Biblical precepts that made our country the greatest of the world. Believers need not take offense or be discouraged by this, it's a well stated warning by a good watchman. This article was not all doom and gloom. It showed what a great nation we were and can be again if our people are willing.

No matter what comes to pass, God knows those that are His. Our Lord does not judge the righteous with the unrighteous. We will either be preserved through it like Noah if the end is not yet, or else taken out of the way like Lot or Enoch. And here's praying for the later! May it be soon Lord Jesus.

[Musclecar1975]

As the OP states here, her concern is pointed out in the questions she has asked.

The article "Easy Street USA" speaks from the Dominion Now or Kingdom Now teachings. This is indeed Apostasy, so this post is in the correct forum, in my understanding.
Dominion Now/Kingdom Now theology believes(please correct me if I'm wrong) that it is the duty of Born-again Christians to fix the worlds ills and make the world right before God and that Jesus Christ won't come back to retrieve us in the rapture until we do this.
I agree that this author of the article is confusing the visible with the invisible church. This is causing the confusion, because one has nothing to do with the other. One works according to the promptings of the flesh, the other works according to the promptings of the Holy Spirit of God.

No, the author is not talking about Dominion Theology at all. He mentioned several false teachings that permeate the U.S. churches. The author is talking about how the comforts and freedoms we experience as Christians in the U.S., which has allowed all types of heretical teachings to permeate our churches, which has consequently rendered us as weak d ineffective for Christ, generally speaking.

[Musclecar1975]

This is not true. You are correct in your description of the Dominion/Kingdom Now teachings, but this is not what the author is teaching. The author is not confusing the physical and the spiritual church, he's speaking in general about America's population as a whole. It might sound a little harsh, but not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is one. They may go through the motions but then at the same time indulge heresies and things that are decidedly not Christian. Some church goers have never truly asked Jesus Christ into their lives!

The author is warning against easy "christianity" and warning folks to check their walk to see if it's genuine. Would you be willing to be martyred, to die for your faith in Christ as it is so in some countries? If not, you might want to check your walk. Persecution has the effect of separating the true believers from the false. If you don't really believe and hold to something, you're not going to risk life and limb for it. America has never experienced any kind of persecution like this. Do folks on easy street even realize the terrible turn around going on right now in our country? Or are they too caught up in the feel good itching ears philosophy?

These are the Kingdom now crowds and other heretics who think everything is just peachy! Easy believism, prosperity gospels, all manners of cults who say they have "god" at their center. He warns against these! The author is warning the readers of this impending judgment and the possible persecution that will surely come to pass if America as a collective doesn't return to the Biblical precepts that made our country the greatest of the world. Believers need not take offense or be discouraged by this, it's a well stated warning by a good watchman. This article was not all doom and gloom. It showed what a great nation we were and can be again if our people are willing.

No matter what comes to pass, God knows those that are His. Our Lord does not judge the righteous with the unrighteous. We will either be preserved through it like Noah if the end is not yet, or else taken out of the way like Lot or Enoch. And here's praying for the later! May it be soon Lord Jesus.

Excellent. You've hit the nail on the head, Timothy K.

[twinkle]

Now I'm totally confused.

When I have time I'll go back and re-read the article.

[busymom]

Twinkle, you are not wrong! I truly believe that article is full of false accusations. While it is true that living in America can be considered "easy" on one level - no physical persecution, a semblance of freedom, etc. - there is much about living here that is very difficult for a true born again believer!

I think of Lot living in Sodom:

2 Peter 2:7,8....And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

In addition, the fact that it so apparently "easy" to be a Christian in American, there are many "tares among the wheat", which tends to make for a very lonely experience for Christians trying to find true fellowship.

Also, as someone else alluded - you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in people's life. There was a time in my life when I was coming out from a group of very controlling, legalistic, almost cult-like people. As I began to see the truth, I went through a horrific time of spiritual battle that I can't even began to describe. I begged God to take my life because I know I couldn't righteously commit suicide.

Back to the article. What does the author want us to "do"? I'm sorry, but God does not give us this nebulous feeling of guilt in our lives. "Oh Christianity is so awful in America. I really should be doing something about it. It must be my fault, I must not be righteous enough, I must not be about my Father's business more, etc." Our "jobs" as Christians is to walk in the Spirit and allow Him to lead our lives and give us the work He intends for us to do. He does NOT do this by a fuzzy feeling of guilt!

My last point is this - God put us in this place at this time. If you live in America, you do not live in China, Sudan, or anywhere else. You are put HERE to do the work that God has for you HERE. Your trials are from HIS loving hands - whether it is to be "burned at the stake" or just enduring loneliness or vexation from wickedness all around you - it is from God.

Christians do NOT need to feel guilty for the evils of this world!!!!!!!

PS. I agree that the article smacks of Dominion Theology - albeit not directly.

[SavedSam]

Twinkle, you are not wrong! I truly believe that article is full of false accusations. While it is true that living in America can be considered "easy" on one level - no physical persecution, a semblance of freedom, etc. - there is much about living here that is very difficult for a true born again believer!

I think of Lot living in Sodom:

2 Peter 2:7,8....And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

In addition, the fact that it so apparently "easy" to be a Christian in American, there are many "tares among the wheat", which tends to make for a very lonely experience for Christians trying to find true fellowship.

Also, as someone else alluded - you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in people's life. There was a time in my life when I was coming out from a group of very controlling, legalistic, almost cult-like people. As I began to see the truth, I went through a horrific time of spiritual battle that I can't even began to describe. I begged God to take my life because I know I couldn't righteously commit suicide.

Back to the article. What does the author want us to "do"? I'm sorry, but God does not give us this nebulous feeling of guilt in our lives. "Oh Christianity is so awful in America. I really should be doing something about it. It must be my fault, I must not be righteous enough, I must not be about my Father's business more, etc." Our "jobs" as Christians is to walk in the Spirit and allow Him to lead our lives and give us the work He intends for us to do. He does NOT do this by a fuzzy feeling of guilt!

My last point is this - God put us in this place at this time. If you live in America, you do not live in China, Sudan, or anywhere else. You are put HERE to do the work that God has for you HERE. Your trials are from HIS loving hands - whether it is to be "burned at the stake" or just enduring loneliness or vexation from wickedness all around you - it is from God.

Christians do NOT need to feel guilty for the evils of this world!!!!!!!

PS. I agree that the article smacks of Dominion Theology - albeit not directly.

busymom

Great first post!

[busymom]

Thanks SavedSam. I haven't posted in years, but this topic is near and dear to my heart. I've spent waaaaaay too much time in the past feeling unnecessary guilt!


Edit - I meant for that icon to go at the end of my post. I don't know how to delete it now!

[TimothyK]

Twinkle, you are not wrong! I truly believe that article is full of false accusations. While it is true that living in America can be considered "easy" on one level - no physical persecution, a semblance of freedom, etc. - there is much about living here that is very difficult for a true born again believer!

I think of Lot living in Sodom:

2 Peter 2:7,8....And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

In addition, the fact that it so apparently "easy" to be a Christian in American, there are many "tares among the wheat", which tends to make for a very lonely experience for Christians trying to find true fellowship.

Also, as someone else alluded - you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in people's life. There was a time in my life when I was coming out from a group of very controlling, legalistic, almost cult-like people. As I began to see the truth, I went through a horrific time of spiritual battle that I can't even began to describe. I begged God to take my life because I know I couldn't righteously commit suicide.

Back to the article. What does the author want us to "do"? I'm sorry, but God does not give us this nebulous feeling of guilt in our lives. "Oh Christianity is so awful in America. I really should be doing something about it. It must be my fault, I must not be righteous enough, I must not be about my Father's business more, etc." Our "jobs" as Christians is to walk in the Spirit and allow Him to lead our lives and give us the work He intends for us to do. He does NOT do this by a fuzzy feeling of guilt!

My last point is this - God put us in this place at this time. If you live in America, you do not live in China, Sudan, or anywhere else. You are put HERE to do the work that God has for you HERE. Your trials are from HIS loving hands - whether it is to be "burned at the stake" or just enduring loneliness or vexation from wickedness all around you - it is from God.

Christians do NOT need to feel guilty for the evils of this world!!!!!!!

PS. I agree that the article smacks of Dominion Theology - albeit not directly.

The author never contends that believers are responsible for the current state of America. If anything it's the true believers that pause God's hand of judgment against this country and it's them that He considers. America is indeed bad, but mixed in with the bad is also the largest (read: true believers) Christian population in the world. This is the wheat and the tares. I'm certain in America you'll find more then one true believer, and certainly 10 or so (the number that God told to Abraham if He had found among the cities that He would spare them from the fire and brimstone judgment). Though to be clear, God didn't promise America (the nation) anything.

It keeps being said that the author is mixing both the spiritual Church or the collective of all born again Christians in Jesus Christ with the physical church, that building of fellowship or the physical organizations. Where is this being done? Is not the author speaking about the later? Isn't the context about easy believism, which is essentially go to church and be a good person, buy Joel's book or two? Feel good about yourself? Doesn't this put it in the context of the physical church? Where does the Body or the Spiritual Church come into play? Where are these two mixed together and presented as a make the world better for Christ to return theology? Have you read any of Jason Lovelace's other writings on the site before you decided he's a Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology apostate?

The article in itself is a warning to the nation and to so-called believers who may not be sincere in their faith. Joel Olsteen types, Catholics, Mormons, JW's or the regular Joe who grew up thinking they were a Christian since mom and dad were. Don't know what makes him a Christian or who Jesus Christ is outside of some curse word. Maybe backslidden Christians? This is the audience that appears to be addressed. I cannot see how the author is trying to guilt trip believers into doing a better job of being Christians.

We have our orders in Scripture. Is being reminded to be a bearer of the Good News a bad thing? To become more like Christ and to love our Lord and God by obeying His commandments? And what is our "work" to be assured salvation? To believe on the one He has sent. There's nothing else you can do to earn it and I don't see the author preaching differently. You're going to have to explain to me and point out where in the article you're getting that the author is guilt tripping believers into Dominion Theology. Are you sure the article isn't pricking at your heart individually or else getting hung up by your own issues? It's a harsh thing to call someone who seems like a good soldier in Christ an apostate. His other articles aren't painting this kind of picture and I can't see it in this one. Be certain before you accuse this and be willing to be corrected.

God puts us where God wants us to be. Your place of birth is irrelevant. God sometimes moves His saints far from where they're from to preach the Gospel in strange places or places that need a lamp light. The purposes of God are His to know. I'm willing to accept I'm wrong if it's explained to me why. I welcome it, maybe I'm not seeing something. But so far it just seems people are over thinking what was meant to be a simple warning, that isn't even addressed to the born again believer so much as a wake up call for those on Easy Street USA. A true Christian is not on Easy Street, be assured.

Excellent. You've hit the nail on the head, Timothy K.

You're flattering. Thank you for your kind words now and earlier!
It feels like I'm repeating myself.

[TimothyK]

I'm very curious now. What do you guys think about the article Winning the Culture War by David H. Grisham? Is this man also guilt tripping believers into doing a better job of being Christians? Is he preaching a Kingdom Now/Dominionism Theology according to you? Or is he warning against the rampant apathy, hypocrisy, and making a stand against our nation's culture of corruption and filth? Because honestly I see this article and Jason Lovelace's on the same wavelength.

The modern church and modern Christians need to separate themselves from the sins and excesses of this vile culture. Stop compromising with evil. Start reading the Word of God. Throw the television in the trash where it belongs. Throw the secular music away with it. Stop minimizing the severity of sin and start maximizing obedience to God. REAL CHRISTIANS OBEY GOD. Stop seeking pleasure and start seeking to reach the lost. Preach the Gospel. Speak out against evil. Against sin. Take back your city by taking back the culture. Be courageous and bold. Stand and do not back down. We are losing our nation but are in danger of losing something far greater, our souls. Will people be angry? Yes, they will. Will you be persecuted? Yes, you will. But you’ll be in good company with the likes of the Apostle Paul and Jesus. You can either live your way or God’s way. The narrow road to heaven or the broad road to hell. Your choice. Choose wisely.

[busymom]

(I'm not up on how to post on here, so I don't know how to "cut and paste" properly. I'll give it a try and hope this response makes sense! I'm going to highlight the original article in red and my comments in black until I learn how to do it otherwise.)

Timothy, I see this article so differently than you. In some ways, I understand your point that America has it relatively "easy" compared to so much of the world and this "ease" has caused a measure of complacency in the church. However, I take issue with the tone of blame in the article. I see many places where I feel the author of the article is attempting to unnecessarily accuse (guilt trip, if you will) the brethren.

First, I admit that I agree with this statement: Being at ease as we are in the USA allows for all sorts of dangerous teachings and false doctrines to infiltrate and integrate themselves into the church. Such has easily been the case in the USA. We have, nowadays, accepted many false teachings such as the following: However, I don't blame true believers. I know many people that see the apostasy in the church and speak against it. There are websites devoted to educating people on false doctrine! Just today, I was speaking with some people about the doctrinal problems I've been seeing at our local, popular evangelical church. (I was greeted with a heated response, BTW -granted I wasn't burned at the stake, but it wasn't exactly pleasant either.)


we have allowed damnable heresies to enter into our places of worship, and we are systematically being lulled into Spiritual Malaise to the effect that there will be many who will be lost simply because they never truly heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, I know there are real born again Christians who DO preach the word, who DO share the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I take issue with the comment that "many will be lost" because they do not hear the true gospel. Jesus will lose NONE of His own - He will see that His sheep come to Him. While it may be true that the visible church is becoming watered down and is not always preaching the gospel, I know that God will continue to spread His Word through His true believers.


Have we not sat silently by, for the most part, while grievous wolves of every stripe have entered in, scattering the flock? Have we not sat idly by while false doctrine and heretical theology has become the norm and acceptable, all the while the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Truth of the Written Word of God has become anathema?

Again, not everyone is "idly standing by". Some are speaking out boldly, some are only just becoming aware of the problems and are educating themselves and others. God is working in His people and is sorting out the wheat from the tares, IMO.


The time is coming when we will be put to the test as a nation and as a body of believers inside the United States of America.

Is this man a prophet of God? Is this from scripture? How does He know the time is coming for our national testing? I know that the whole world will be tested in the trib, but there is no guarantee that America is set up for testing as an individual nation or that American Christians are going to be specifically tested for our complacency, as this comment seems to imply.


The reason we are in such a mess, why we have allowed so much heresy and false teaching into the church is because we, as American Christians, have sat back and let it happen.

Oh this makes my blood boil! Although I admit it's been true of me that I was ignorant of the false doctrines slowly infiltrating the (visible) Church, I do not agree that I "sat back and let it happen". I have been amazed that God has been lovingly instructing me (and others) as to what is going on. He has been patient and kind with me - not standing in an accusing manner saying, "All this mess is YOUR fault."


If we, as a nation, and as the Body of Christ in the USA, will repent of our lax, lackadaisicalness, and mindset of ease, and get right, stand for the Gospel, and ask for forgiveness for the heresy and false doctrine that has entered, the day of persecution that will come upon the USA does not have to be today: Christ will hold off for a time. However, if we continue to allow error, collaborate with the world, and turn a blind eye to sin, we, along with the rest of the USA, will go through the fires of testing, and God has promised us that his testing is hot (Job 23), and that testing will come sooner than we think or know.

Again, this writer seems pretty sure of Himself and of God's plan to test America. He may or may not be right, but I find his tone quite harsh and accusing.


Back to the premise of this article written from a Dominion point of view - I can't help but see this implied. "If the Church would just get it together, God would hold off His judgment." The article doesn't specifically state that the Church will usher in the Kingdom of God if they "get right", but the implication is certainly there.

In summary, I agree with the OP that this article mixes up the visible church with the real Church. I know of many true believers who do stand for the truth. They may not be persecuted as they are in other countries, but they do suffer in their own ways. God may or may not choose to have persecution worsen here in the USA, but that is His prerogative and timing. I will not succumb to the guilt that this article attempts to measure out!

[Musclecar1975]

You're flattering. Thank you for your kind words now and earlier!
It feels like I'm repeating myself.

I'm just speaking the truth, Brother. Please keep those excellent, insightful posts coming.

[TimothyK]

Being at ease as we are in the USA allows for all sorts of dangerous teachings and false doctrines to infiltrate and integrate themselves into the church. Such has easily been the case in the USA. We have, nowadays, accepted many false teachings such as the following: However, I don't blame true believers. I know many people that see the apostasy in the church and speak against it. There are websites devoted to educating people on false doctrine! Just today, I was speaking with some people about the doctrinal problems I've been seeing at our local, popular evangelical church. (I was greeted with a heated response, BTW -granted I wasn't burned at the stake, but it wasn't exactly pleasant either.)

The quote from the article you used here does not show that the author is blaming born again believers for the current state of the church in America. Those websites dedicated to exposing and educating against false doctrine are true Christians even Saints making a stand for Christ. If you took a stand for Christ against false doctrine in your church, you too fight the good fight. God bless you! You will surely gain a measure of praise. However, let's be frank. You were not burned at the stake for your stand. You walked away with your limbs intact, your face unscathed by acid. You cannot honestly compare a heated response and an unpleasant experience with a horrible physical trial or a gruesome death.

The safety, freedom, and comfort a true Christian enjoys (currently) here in America is a blessing from God. A false convert who loses these things will quickly denounce Christ to save their life and continue in earthly comfort. They will go with the flow on the path of least resistance. This is all the unbeliever knows and feels this is all he can look forward too. The unbeliever is spiritually blind. They never believed Christ. They never accepted Him and thus cannot grasp the things of God.

A true Christian realizes these earthly things, these earthly blessings are nice. Even worth fighting for if you like life as we've enjoyed it in America! But this is not the epitome, the grand or end all. Far from it! The true reward is in Heaven and New Jerusalem. The true life is everlasting, utterly perfect, and nothing like what we experience in this world. The born again are not even of this world. Compared to what awaits us, these earthly things are worth less then nothing. Even dung can be used as fertilizer. Not this stuff. The things in this life will be burned away with fires stored by God for judgment. The Earth will be judged and everything as we know it and see it will be changed, restored. Nothing here can even be compared to the glory that awaits the born again in Christ.

we have allowed damnable heresies to enter into our places of worship, and we are systematically being lulled into Spiritual Malaise to the effect that there will be many who will be lost simply because they never truly heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, I know there are real born again Christians who DO preach the word, who DO share the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I take issue with the comment that "many will be lost" because they do not hear the true gospel. Jesus will lose NONE of His own - He will see that His sheep come to Him. While it may be true that the visible church is becoming watered down and is not always preaching the gospel, I know that God will continue to spread His Word through His true believers.

There will be many lost who adhere to false doctrines, or else a false gospel. There is only one Gospel, and one Doctrine. Many will be lost. It doesn't have to be that way. But we are all individually responsible for what we do with the Gift of God in His son Jesus Christ. He's offered Christ for everyone, but you must claim His gift by accepting it by faith. The many false doctrines and gospels preach against this simple truth and for this reason, many will not accept and many will be lost. There are true Christians who preach the true Gospel, who preach the Word uncensored and plainly, and do share the Good News! Praise God for this!

Jesus Christ will never lose not even one that belongs to Him (John 6:37). But you have to belong to Him to share this blessing.

Matthew 7:18-23
A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration]. Every tree that does not bear good [excellent] fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

Have we not sat silently by, for the most part, while grievous wolves of every stripe have entered in, scattering the flock? Have we not sat idly by while false doctrine and heretical theology has become the norm and acceptable, all the while the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Truth of the Written Word of God has become anathema?

Again, not everyone is "idly standing by". Some are speaking out boldly, some are only just becoming aware of the problems and are educating themselves and others. God is working in His people and is sorting out the wheat from the tares, IMO.

You're missing the operative words "for the most part". Not all of America's churches have sat silently while wolves attacked the flock. Some of us got out our rifles. The author is not saying everyone has let this happen.

The time is coming when we will be put to the test as a nation and as a body of believers inside the United States of America.

Is this man a prophet of God? Is this from scripture? How does He know the time is coming for our national testing? I know that the whole world will be tested in the trib, but there is no guarantee that America is set up for testing as an individual nation or that American Christians are going to be specifically tested for our complacency, as this comment seems to imply.

It doesn't take one of God's prophets to see the changing climate here in America. Anyone spiritually discerned with a bit of common sense can see America is becoming more hostile to Christians who preach the Word of God unapologetic. Try homosexuality and abortion. It's soon going to be a hate crime to speak against these things, ala Canada's C-250 hate crime law.

Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, willfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of … an indictable offense and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

Homosexuals are considered an "identifiable" group. Hope you don't have a church sermon about what the Bible and what God has to say about homosexuality up there. God uses abomination, hate... He blew up a city with fire and brimstone from Heaven over it. This kind of "hate crime" "law" is coming to an America near you. Honestly, a complacent "christian" won't have to worry about it. They'll be nice and quiet and avoid the issue. Maybe avoid the Scriptures all together and watch some TV.

Any true Christian is likely going to have to deal with the issue and preach the truth of Scriptures to the often times unrepentant and proud homosexual. Maybe even a friend. A congregation certainly is and I've already read a story about at least one church getting kicked out of Canada for it. I'm not just picking on Canada either, many nations have this absurd type of nonsense such as the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and Sweden. Similar persecutions of the Church have happened there and certainly much worse in other nations not mentioned. But this shouldn't be so in America. The fact that it's coming, ignoring our constitutions protections and liberties is proof positive that a time of "change" this way comes.

The reason we are in such a mess, why we have allowed so much heresy and false teaching into the church is because we, as American Christians, have sat back and let it happen.

Oh this makes my blood boil! Although I admit it's been true of me that I was ignorant of the false doctrines slowly infiltrating the (visible) Church, I do not agree that I "sat back and let it happen". I have been amazed that God has been lovingly instructing me (and others) as to what is going on. He has been patient and kind with me - not standing in an accusing manner saying, "All this mess is YOUR fault."

Ignorance and willful acceptance are two different beasts. Ignorance hung the Son of God on a cross. Sometimes God works with ignorance and brings spectacular results while the ignorant are still standing there going "duuurrr". Ignorance can be forgiven. Willful acceptance and determined rebellion however cannot be forgiven of until the puffed up spirit of pride is destroyed and taken out of the way. You can't repent about something when you believe you are right. If you don't agree with God about something, that's tantamount to rebellion or calling God a liar. God is either God and absolute/perfect or else He is not. Pride is the most dangerous of sins. This is the one that has made Satan.

If we, as a nation, and as the Body of Christ in the USA, will repent of our lax, lackadaisicalness, and mindset of ease, and get right, stand for the Gospel, and ask for forgiveness for the heresy and false doctrine that has entered, the day of persecution that will come upon the USA does not have to be today: Christ will hold off for a time. However, if we continue to allow error, collaborate with the world, and turn a blind eye to sin, we, along with the rest of the USA, will go through the fires of testing, and God has promised us that his testing is hot (Job 23), and that testing will come sooner than we think or know.

Again, this writer seems pretty sure of Himself and of God's plan to test America. He may or may not be right, but I find his tone quite harsh and accusing.

...I will not succumb to the guilt that this article attempts to measure out!

The modern church and modern Christians need to separate themselves from the sins and excesses of this vile culture. Stop compromising with evil. Start reading the Word of God. Throw the television in the trash where it belongs. Throw the secular music away with it. Stop minimizing the severity of sin and start maximizing obedience to God. REAL CHRISTIANS OBEY GOD. Stop seeking pleasure and start seeking to reach the lost. Preach the Gospel. Speak out against evil. Against sin. Take back your city by taking back the culture. Be courageous and bold. Stand and do not back down. We are losing our nation but are in danger of losing something far greater, our souls. Will people be angry? Yes, they will. Will you be persecuted? Yes, you will. But you’ll be in good company with the likes of the Apostle Paul and Jesus. You can either live your way or God’s way. The narrow road to heaven or the broad road to hell. Your choice. Choose wisely.

Then you're sensitive. I'm sorry if the lesson was a bit rough. Accusing the brethren, preaching dominionism/kingdom now, this is not what the author is doing. If sin is surely judged by God, then judgment is coming America's way collectively. The exception being those who belong to Jesus Christ. Sister, if Christ is your Lord and you're about your Father's business you are certainly not the one being spoken to in these articles. The born again are not subject to the Wrath of God. It might be painful to be told the America you grew up in is changing for the worse, but don't let that discourage you.

This world is not our home. This is just a fantastic boarding house. America doesn't need to go down the way that it is going. God is always faithful and true. If our nation as a majority would repent and turn back to God, we would be restored. If that happens or not, no matter what happens good or bad, the purposes of God will be accomplished. Prophesy will be fulfilled whether America is great or poor, if it's there or not.

[busymom]

Timothy,

I agree with you more than I disagree with you. I too see the degeneration of America and I know there is judgment awaiting. I see things getting worse and worse. I see the "church" becoming more and more apostate. I can also see that there are going to be more consequences to standing up to Christ as time marches towards the end. I am not overly "sensitive" or naive, nor is it particularly "painful" for me to see or accept the visible churches demise. I think you are missing my point.

Throughout the article, the author refers to the negligence of "the Body of Christ" or "American Christians" or what have you. I read this as an indictment of Christians. No matter how many times I read it, I sense that he is blaming true Christians for the downfall of the church. If you see it differently, then I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Another thing - I am not afraid of guilt - if indeed it is from the Holy Spirit. I realize that I, and others, are often tempted by this world. I even realize that having "easy street" can be a detriment to growing in Christ. I guess my point is that I do not like the tone of the article. I see nothing served in (how I see it) blaming Christians for the evils in this world. In my opinion, Christians need encouragement to stay pure, instruction in true doctrine so they can recognize apostasy, building up to withstand persecution, etc. I find brow beating, accusations, and false guilt to be harmful.

Perhaps we are just interpreting this article differently and, as I said, we need to agree to disagree!

Blessings, Cathy

[TimothyK]

Throughout the article, the author refers to the negligence of "the Body of Christ" or "American Christians" or what have you. I read this as an indictment of Christians. No matter how many times I read it, I sense that he is blaming true Christians for the downfall of the church. If you see it differently, then I guess we have to agree to disagree.

...

I guess my point is that I do not like the tone of the article. I see nothing served in (how I see it) blaming Christians for the evils in this world. In my opinion, Christians need encouragement to stay pure, instruction in true doctrine so they can recognize apostasy, building up to withstand persecution, etc. I find brow beating, accusations, and false guilt to be harmful.

Well that's the gist of the entire case against this author as an apostate. You're saying that he is blaming Christians for the reason that America is in this whole mess and that born again believers are responsible for the pathetic state of a larger part of America's churches. Where is he saying this? Where does it say in the article that "the Body of Christ" or even true "American Christians" are the reason America is in it's current predicament? Where is this indictment of negligence against true born again believers? Is he not talking about the physical church and not the born again believers, the Body of Christ? If not, point it out. If he is mixing both the true Christians, the born again in Christ with the physical organizations this is indeed error. I don't see that.

Like I've said before if you're seeing something I am not, enlighten me. I will concede to you. I don't want to be the odd man out defending an apostate if what you're saying is true. But if you're wrong, you should be sorry for accusing a fellow soldier in Christ of apostasy. You may not like how he has said something but you can't label him an apostate based on that alone. He isn't going against the Word as far as I can see. The author isn't the one doing the false accusing in that case.

We can "agree to disagree", but I prefer to understand why.

I do appreciate your efforts, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. However you must prove your case against this man, especially because of the accusation. That's a very heavy accusation against someone. I honestly do not believe Jason Lovelace is an apostate. I think he is a born again believer. His other articles do not paint the picture of an apostate. We should not falsely accuse the brethren. Apostasy is a very serious thing and if someone's article is getting published on RR no less, that's a very terrible affront. A lot of people could be hurt by it. I know your intentions are sincere. If Christians were as astute about things such as this article, we wouldn't have so many problems to begin with.

Welcome to the board, Cathy. I'm glad to see you posting. God bless you.

[busymom]

Hi Timothy,

I appreciate that we can discuss this without anger. I sense that we are both attempting to arrive at the truth here and may be just seeing things differently. First of all, if you read through my posts, you will see that I never claimed this man was apostate. I don't know this man and I've never read any of his other articles. I can see that he is frustrated with the way things are in America and has a heart to see it changed. I am in agreement with him there.

I am reacting to the tone of the article which I just can't help but see that of blame. I've read many other writings on this same point - it is Christians fault that everything is going to pot, etc. That is, in effect, the result of Dominionism thinking - "When the Church is holy enough, society can then be holy enough, and Christ can return." I am not accusing the author as being a Dominionist - I am only responding to this particular article and the effect it has on me when I read it.

Throughout the article he refers to "The Church in the USA" He capitalizes Church, which makes me think he is referring to the "real" church. Even if I give him the benefit of the doubt in those situations, there are a couple instances where he is more specific:

If we, as a nation, and as the Body of Christ in the USA, will repent of our lax, lackadaisicalness, and mindset of ease, and get right, stand for the Gospel, and ask for forgiveness for the heresy and false doctrine that has entered,

The reason we are in such a mess, why we have allowed so much heresy and false teaching into the church is because we, as American Christians, have sat back and let it happen.

I will concede that I could be misunderstanding him, but terms like those above seem to me to be speaking of true, born again, believers.

I hope that clarifies my view on the subject. I am now off to relax.....

Cathy

[SavedSam]

I wanted to make sure of my own understanding of Kingdom Now theology when used in reference to Jason Lovelace so found this. I am high-lighting those points that tend to show up in his writings, which certainly imply leanings toward Kingdom Now theology. There is so much confusion, this is why many don't see the connection. Alot of times writers will only have a hint of Kingdom Now, others will use a lot, but it is still to be considered apostate, a little leaven, leaveth the whole lump Galatians 5:9:




http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l04.html





The basic premise of Kingdom Theology is that man lost dominion over the earth when Adam and Eve succumbed to Satan's temptation in the Garden of Eden. God "lost control" of the earth to Satan at that time, and has since been looking for a "covenant people" who will be His "extension," or "expression," in the earth and take dominion back from Satan. This is to be accomplished through certain "overcomers" who, by yielding themselves to the authority of God's apostles and prophets for the Kingdom Age, will take control of the kingdoms of this world. These kingdoms are defined as all social institutions, such as the "kingdom" of education, the "kingdom" of science, the "kingdom" of the arts, and so on.

Most especially there is the "kingdom" of politics or government. This naturally implies the concentration of military and police power in the hands of those in control during the Kingdom Age. They are referred to as the "many-membered man child," whom Kingdom Theology adherents believe will be the fulfillment of Revelation 12:1-5: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars....And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron."
Those who hold to Kingdom Theology assume that the Church (some believe only a small group within the Church, called "overcomers"), under submission to the latter day apostles and prophets, is that man child, and that it has the responsibility to put down all rebellion and establish righteousness.

Please read the entire article. There is much to understand in it. My own intention is to gain understanding and lead others also.

[TimothyK]

First of all, if you read through my posts, you will see that I never claimed this man was apostate. I don't know this man and I've never read any of his other articles. I can see that he is frustrated with the way things are in America and has a heart to see it changed. I am in agreement with him there.

You're right! Sure enough, I got you and SavedSam mixed up on that thought. My mistake. The fact that this thread is in the Apostasy board though, tends to speak that this article is apostate. I can't help but wonder when someone comes in what they read and take away. That's more or less why I try and explain myself clearly in my posts (and why they might be a bit long ). So yes you didn't claim the author is committing apostasy but another has, and the fact that this thread remains in Apostasy tends to argue the subject is up for debate.

I'm sorry for getting that mixed up. I also agree we're trying to discover the truth! Thank you for seeing it that way and not taking offense. I don't mean any and I'm trying to understand this just as hard as you are.

I am reacting to the tone of the article which I just can't help but see that of blame. I've read many other writings on this same point - it is Christians fault that everything is going to pot, etc. That is, in effect, the result of Dominionism thinking - "When the Church is holy enough, society can then be holy enough, and Christ can return." I am not accusing the author as being a Dominionist - I am only responding to this particular article and the effect it has on me when I read it.

That's a bit of a stretch. The entire point of the article is a warning for those on Easy Street believism and the lukewarm churches to repent of their laziness and apathy, to get on the ball. To repent of their sins and get right with our Lord and God. It can be concluded the author wants the nation as a whole to repent of their sins to avoid the judgment that will come on an unrepentant sinful nation. Not because he's into dominionism thinking or kingdom now theology. There's nothing to indicate his writing has this agenda. Maybe it is a difference of thinking on our part, but I don't take away that he has a dominionism mindset. His tone doesn't imply that with me, nor does the article as a whole. Read some of his other articles on the main page: Is God Cruel?, What Atheists Believe and The Elephant Joke, The Day After the Rapture. Could you still conclude he has a dominionism mindset? Are you still determined he's thrown his reputation over this one article and holds this type of mindset when you hold it against his other work?

Throughout the article he refers to "The Church in the USA" He capitalizes Church, which makes me think he is referring to the "real" church.

We are alike in this instance! When I refer to the Body of Christ, God, His Church, the Earth, Heaven, His Creation, His Wrath, etc... I have a capitalization quirk. These things belong to God or they are loved by God and I show my respect by capitalizing them. I always capitalize God and any instances of the Lord in His, Him, and He. The church is just a building or an organization. The Church are the born again and the Body of Christ. With me and you anyway. Much like some Jews may say G-d instead of God out of deep respect to His name. To me God is just a reference to the Father in the first place. But even this I capitalize to show respect and differentiate it from other "gods". God The Father's True Most Blessed Name has been lost to mankind for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. God has chosen to be known as and through Jesus Christ.

But yes I have to give the author the benefit of the doubt over that. Not everyone thinks this way. So when I see that I don't automatically conclude he's using it the way you or I would. We have to keep what he's saying in context.

If we, as a nation, and as the Body of Christ in the USA, will repent of our lax, lackadaisicalness, and mindset of ease, and get right, stand for the Gospel, and ask for forgiveness for the heresy and false doctrine that has entered,

The reason we are in such a mess, why we have allowed so much heresy and false teaching into the church is because we, as American Christians, have sat back and let it happen.

I will concede that I could be misunderstanding him, but terms like those above seem to me to be speaking of true, born again, believers.

I hope that clarifies my view on the subject.

If we, as a nation, and as the Body of Christ in the USA, will repent of our lax, lackadaisicalness, and mindset of ease, and get right, stand for the Gospel, and ask for forgiveness for the heresy and false doctrine that has entered,

Prior to this he was quoting II Chronicles 7:14 (he missed a "I" in the actual article) and II Chronicles 12:6-7. In both instances it demonstrates a mass repentance of the people. Not individuals. The famines, droughts, locusts, and natural disasters would come on them because God was displeased with the people. The True Church is comprised of individuals born again. It is not the building or worldly organizations that may and certainly do stray. A true Christian congregation with large numbers is becoming rare. Most of them went off the apostasy and heresy deep end, following fables and their itching ears. Small congregations of true believers are exploding in number though. Most of them are refugees of these larger falling outs joining folks who have never been drawn to larger congregations. When the people as a nation are told to repent, the collective must repent. The individuals and the minority (which is quite a number for a "minority") of the people who are God's children by Christ, those that belong to Him need not worry about what will happen.

Despite all of the ills of our country I'd still wager we still hold the largest number of true Christians over any other nation. Our nation is still quite blessed, even in these troubling times. We haven't had that long overdue America-crippling disaster everyone is sure to come around any moment (famous last words?). None the less the warning needs to get out so that we might avoid such a disaster. And the only way to do that is to turn to our Lord and God who made us. This is crux of his article. The author says even before this:

Persecution for the Church of Jesus Christ in the United States of America is on its way, and whether it comes sooner or later is up to us, as a church.

What happens as far as judgment on the church (organizations) and the nation is up to the people. It remains to be seen. If they will turn and repent and humble themselves before God, God's anger will be turned away. He will again bless us and restore our land. God's nature doesn't change. For the true Christian, being hated and persecuted by the world has already been a matter of fact. Being preserved and kept despite that is the Lord's work. If Christ is for us, who can be against us? If God let's loose His anger against America because of it's sins, will He not remember His people here? Does God judge the innocent with the wicked? Wars and rumors of such. Do not be moved. The hour is late, but Christ is with us always. So don't fear these things or anything for that matter. Worst thing that can happen is death. If you're a believer where do you then get whisked away to but into the loving embrace of our Redeemer and King, our Lord and God?

I will admit though the use of the Body of Christ in this particular example is easy to confuse (even an incorrect usage in this instance because it can easily be inferred to mean the born again) if you don't keep the former things said in mind. Following the context though I'm still lead to believe he's addressing the physical and not the spiritual Church.

The reason we are in such a mess, why we have allowed so much heresy and false teaching into the church is because we, as American Christians, have sat back and let it happen.

Again keeping in context before this statement he was making a comparison of the church in America to the Laodiceans. I would compare America to the Sardis church more then the Laodicean one. However entertaining this and keeping in context with the Bible we can conclude that this address is to the collective, not the individuals. Among the Sardis and even in Laodicea there will be those who will be saved. Those who will wake up and turn again to their God, and those who will answer the door to Christ who knocks at their heart.

Those that are already right with God needn't be worried about the more stern warnings issued to those who need this warning. It wouldn't hurt to pay attention though. You might gain insight or be reminded and moved to action on something you've been neglecting in your life. The born again Christian going about their Father's business belongs to the Philadelphia Church. They belong to Christ without having to use a metaphor, plain and simple. Our Lord Jesus tells as such plainly in the Bible.

I don't think the author is brow beating, accusing, or guilt tripping the born again over this message so much as sternly warning those that need to get right with God. Which is the audience. Not the one that is already whole. These "individual" born again believers together form the collective of Christ's Bride, His Church. This is the true Church. This is the true collective. This is not the Church being addressed. Only the corrupt organizations (clearly not all of them) and the lukewarm. Even so, no true Christian wants judgment to fall on their nation or the people around them. God is exceedingly patient and long suffering. If we are to chase after God's heart, we should want what He wants. God would prefer that these people would repent and live! Find life everlasting! We can know this from the Bible. But it's their choice. I believe this warning is done out of love.

What do you say about this? What do you think about all this? Do you still believe as before about the author after considering these things? Do you believe the staff of the RR main site were wrong to post this particular article? Or are there others like it that you disagree with? Like Winning the Culture War by David Grisham? I quoted this one in an earlier post. What are your thoughts on this article? Is it in the same vein as Easy Street USA or is it's message different? Does this article also preach a domionism/kingdom now thought according to you? I'm sincerely curious to know what you think. Please tell! Anyone else can cut in at any time.

Am I in a minority that feels this way about the article? Did the article really offend?

[Musclecar1975]

I don't think this article was offensive at all, I think the author hit the nail on the head and I was very glad to see RR post this article. He wasn't even saying true Christians in America were the reason for the state of apostasy our churches are in, he was saying generally speaking, since our churches a filled with false converts. I also think to call the author an apostate is wrong, because he is far from that. We really do need to be careful when making these accusations.

Why is it when a believer points out the truth of erroneous teachings within our churches, they almost always get attacked by other believers?

[Steve53]

I don't think this article was offensive at all, I think the author hit the nail on the head and I was very glad to see RR post this article.

Remember the main site and the BB are two different things......


An article on the main site may or may not align with our rules and doctrinal beliefs statement.

Carry on!

[Musclecar1975]

Very true.

I was glad to see the article on the RR main page, because I think this is definitely an issue that needed to be addressed, and being that RR is a very popular website, this article will get a lot of exposure.