Messianic Churches

[SaintTexas]

Mods, sorry if this is the wrong board to post this. I wasn't sure where to ask this question.

Does anyone here attend a Messianic congregation or has ever gone to one? We have talked about it, and there are two here where we live within about 30 minutes of our home. We are not Jewish but have been greatly blessed in our understanding of the Bible by teachings of Messianic Jewish rabbis.

Would a Messianic congregation be a good place for an ex-Catholic and ex-Protestant who just want to follow Jesus?

[Cloud Watcher]

I have a Christian friend who goes to one and loves it. She said she has learned so much of the meanings behind biblical scriptures by their historical references. She previously invited me to the annual Seder dinner, and I'm going with her again this year.

[iSong6:3]

Mods, sorry if this is the wrong board to post this. I wasn't sure where to ask this question.

Does anyone here attend a Messianic congregation or has ever gone to one? We have talked about it, and there are two here where we live within about 30 minutes of our home. We are not Jewish but have been greatly blessed in our understanding of the Bible by teachings of Messianic Jewish rabbis.

Would a Messianic congregation be a good place for an ex-Catholic and ex-Protestant who just want to follow Jesus?

Messianic congregations are not a unified entity by any means, so it depends entirely on the individual congregation. A few are doctrinally sound, many are not. Many may seem to look good on paper per their Doctrinal Statements but either have *code words* that the uninitiated do not yet realize or the actual teachings or body life of the congregants to not bear out what they say they believe. Many, many believers who have started out in the Messianic area moved on into the Hebrew Roots cults (there is too often a blur between the two) - we know this by the testimonies of the ones who got out. Some do not get out; they become so enamored of *all things Jewish* and are fed a diet of Judaism, the Law, the rabbinical teachings from anti-Christian (and Gentile!) teachers, etc., that they ultimately deny Jesus and live as Jews.

Be careful.

I'm curious as to why you would refer to one member of the couple as an "ex-Protestant". I can understand the not wanting a label of a denomination as a self-defining thing, but are you saying you do not hold to Protestant theology? How would you describe the beliefs then?

This raises a red flag for me because it sounds like a couple who may be ripe for the very subtle and cunning lures of the Hebrew Roots/Messianic aberrations. If you are not very strong in your beliefs about the absolute and total grace of God in our salvation and in our sanctification, the "Hath God saids" of temptation to spiritual adultery can be very powerful.

Some good stuff here, wrapped up in the Conclusion:

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpr...ement-so-what/

[SaintTexas]

I was making a self-deprecating comment about my husband and myself, as we are from two different backgrounds. I am the one characterized as an "ex-Protestant" as I consider myself to just be a blood-bought, born-again follower of Christ (who believes in a pre-Trib rapture, dispensationalism, reading the Bible literally, a young earth, etc.---one of those scary, dangerous Christians that the government now wants to target as a radical, LOL) if I am to wear any label at all. The problem with Protestant is that it would include Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. They are all different within being Protestant, and then who knows what you are talking about?!

We began attending a Calvary Chapel locally a couple of months ago, but we watch Zola Levitt, Discovering the Jewish Jesus, Think It Thru, and also Way of the Master with Ray Comfort and have greatly appreciated the understanding that someone from a Messianic background has been able to provide on scripture and Jewish traditions---something very sorely missing in every church we have ever attended.

We have usually stuck to non-denominational churches during our marriage, but we had church-hopped to a local Methodist church for about a year six years ago and then to the local Baptist church for a few months where I went back to and attended Bible study for the last three years, and then to a megachurch for three years, which we recently left because of their seeker-sensitive, Purpose-Driven agenda and watering down of God's Word. I think we have had about enough of false, errant doctrine and have become almost hyper-sensitive to it! Praise the Lord for sealing us with His Spirit to teach us when something isn't right!

We like the Calvary Chapel we are attending, but we had talked about looking into one of the Messianic congregations also. We still evaluate everything that the pastor at CC teaches, but he teaches by reading/exposing the scripture, unlike most pastors. We literally go through God's Word, line by line, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book. If he is going to take something from another part of the Bible for a sermon, it's still kept in context. We hear the Gospel preached every week also. It's been excellent. The group studies are taught in the same way.

I was just wondering about Messianic congregations, but I very much appreciate your warnings in general. I have heard of nothing that you have mentioned. It is very, very scary out there just within the regular Christian community, and most churches look like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, and teach of the world and seek the Lord for all the wrong reasons, expecting a rescue I think here in the US of maybe money falling from the sky and have no idea what time it is as they are not looking up to watch for the Lord's return for His Bride.

[iSong6:3]

I think we have had about enough of false, errant doctrine and have become almost hyper-sensitive to it! Praise the Lord for sealing us with His Spirit to teach us when something isn't right!

Amen! It sure sounds like you've been through a whole smorgasbord of churches and practices. (Same with me.) I'm glad you're going to a strong Word-based Calvary Chapel. Only a strong foundation in the Bible can keep us grounded in these days.

So, if you choose, go visit the Messianic congregations and see what you perceive. (Personally, I love the music in most of them. Are you familiar with Messianic music?) Imo, our precious brother Zola was such a great model of a Messianic ministry, as rare as he was/that is.

[Xenosjeff]

Do you know about Arnold Fruchtenbaum?


Jeff

[SaintTexas]

We watch Zola Levitt Presents, Think It Thru, Discovering the Jewish Jesus. I have heard Zola play and in the episode we recorded this week, it was another brother in Jerusalem. I love the way they praise, clap, sing, and dance. Reminds me of the passage about reviving David's tent and the 24 hour a day singing, dancing and praising that took place around the Ark of the Covenant.

Understanding the Jewish roots of Christianity adds so much depth to Bible reading. Things that seemingly have no significance without it come to life and have great meaning. It's the reason for our interest in a Messianic congregation.

Yes, I am actually around page 450 in The Footsteps of the Messiah. I love Fruchtenbaum. He has to be the most literal eschatologic scholar I have read to date when it comes to scripture. I have learned a great deal from his book.

I also own The Complete Jewish Bible translated by David Stern, which has been interesting when I use it with an original word study online, though I prefer an NASB.

[Daniel1210]

SaintTexas,

My wife and I just started watching Discoveing the Jewish Jesus and find it very interesting.
That Rabbi Scneider knows his stuff! Beloved!
We also have The Complete Jewish Bible.

If one-third of the "mainstram" Christian churches were as lit up about the end times as these Messianic Jews I think things would be a little different right now.

[laney]

Saint Texas I went to Beit Shalom for almost 2 years.
On Wednesdays and Sundays I went to My regular church Abundant
Life.On Friday nights I went to Beit Shalom. The first time I went
it was with a friend to go to their passover sedar.
I loved the messianic music.The Rabbi and his wife
were so down to earth. My friend went for a while
but stopped going. She said that even though they
proclaim Jesus they were still living under the Law.
She told me read the book of Hebrews. Paul wrote this
Epistle because some Christian Jews were going back in to Judaism.
I now have to agree with her.I think it was after passover
they went through their kitchen cabinets to get all the bread
and leven out of the house.

They are going back into Judaism while trying to profess
their faith in Christ.
Although they will probably tell you that they aren't.
Rabbi Steve's famous saying was we don't have to we get to.

You cannot accept Jesus as saviour plus keep the law.
They are trying to keep the law and profess Jesus at the same time.
If it's not Jesus Christ and Him crucified it's not the gospel.

I found this article by John Rostern which may help.
It's a blog so I can't post it but I'll type some of that which he had to say.
The Hebraic roots movement also encompasses Messianic Judaism.Both
are, in fact one and the same just packaged differently in order to decieve
more people.Messianic Judaism is merely a steppingstone for the
Hebraic Roots movement.

The entire movement resembles the Judaisers of Pauls day.Many
Jews who have now accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah are
attempting to mesh grace with Juadism under the Old Covenant.
In order to accomplish this they view it necessary to perform the
works of the law , as well as the ordinances, such as the Sabbath
and holy days by combining them with Christianty

Sadly many Messianic Jews are being deceived by not
being told they have to leave the doing of the law and today's modern
twisted and perverted Judaism, which, by the way, does not resemble the
Old Testament at all.

If it was me I would not go to their temple.
You have a great church that you are going to
now.I would stay there.
I hope this helps.
I also have the complete Jewish Bible.I
bought it at Beit Shalom when I was attending there.
It has been sitting on the shelf in my book case.
I went back to using my King James Bible.

[iSong6:3]

SaintTexas,

My wife and I just started watching Discoveing the Jewish Jesus and find it very interesting.
That Rabbi Scneider knows his stuff! Beloved!
We also have The Complete Jewish Bible.

If one-third of the "mainstram" Christian churches were as lit up about the end times as these Messianic Jews I think things would be a little different right now.

Please be careful with that one, Daniel.

He calls himself a "rabbi" but he's not. He used to be a regular pastor of a church. Sounds like a small thing, perhaps, but these people wanting the *authority* that they feel the term rabbi gives them is always a red flag, coming from long experience. And when Jesus said "Call no man Father" He also said "Call no man Rabbi".

We have threads about the Hebrew Roots cults and Messianic red flags, so I won't get into that here.

But bear in mind that most HR/Messianic groups are not pre-trib. Neither is this one, he believes we are in the "Time of Jacob's Trouble right here, beloved, right now!"

[iSong6:3]

Excellent post, Miz laney.

So many of us who have bad stories of going down that HR/Messianic road and have been entangled with some of their cunningly unScriptural doctrines and practices have the best warnings to others not to do the same.

[Daniel1210]

iSong6:3,
Thanks for the heads up.

[RaptureReady_7]

I think we have had about enough of false, errant doctrine and have become almost hyper-sensitive to it! Praise the Lord for sealing us with His Spirit to teach us when something isn't right!

Amen! It sure sounds like you've been through a whole smorgasbord of churches and practices. (Same with me.) I'm glad you're going to a strong Word-based Calvary Chapel. Only a strong foundation in the Bible can keep us grounded in these days.

So, if you choose, go visit the Messianic congregations and see what you perceive. (Personally, I love the music in most of them. Are you familiar with Messianic music?) Imo, our precious brother Zola was such a great model of a Messianic ministry, as rare as he was/that is.

I watch Zola Levitt all the time. I loved his teachings before he died, still love the show and I get the Levitt Letter. The show definitely gives you a great perspective on Biblical history.

I have to admit, I love their serial teachings on a subject. Right now they are showing the Ezekiel and the Mid East Piece Process series, loved how they said piece and not peace. And they just finished up with Eretz Israel.

[SaintTexas]

If you guys will note the date when I started the thread it was last March, not this March. We love our CC and are not looking to leave or to attend a second congregation for any reason. We are so blessed with where the Lord has placed us.

I do know about Arnold Fruchtenbaum and have not only read the entire The Footsteps of the Messiah (last year and I still continue to go back to it as questions come up for commentary to check my own interpretation as I study to see if I am off or what I didn't get), I also read a book because of this very question that he wrote called Hebrew Christianity. He also addressed any celebration of the Sabbath, feasts, and addressed law vs grace beautifully using scripture from the NT. Alva McClain wrote a really excellent one as well called Law vs Grace, I believe that is basically an expositional commentary on Galatians and Romans but also takes the other applicable verses and explains them. These really helped me to understand. I also cannot emphasize enough the focus on mercy, compassion and grace and the preimmence of Jesus Christ within the church that we are in as well and how much that has helped and that we are departing from iniquity, we follow the Lord's commandments as a love response to Him because of what He has done for us. Helps keep the focus where it should be---on the Lord and what He has done! I love that He always stands ready to accept the confession of a sinner, saved and needing restoration of fellowship or the lost who needs salvation.

If we had more Jews who had solid, scriptural understanding (that Fruchtenbaum does, in my opinion) of law vs grace, as he said in Hebrew Christianity, there would be far better understanding of God's Word and we would not end up so off track in so many areas. I agree with this and will go so far to say that this is not beyond a Gentile or Gentile pastor either when we honor things like taking God's Word literally, allowing It to define It's symbols and what It means, context and Jewish context, grammar, history, common sense.

Rabbi Schneider has done some really excellent expositions on things like God's names, but his understanding of prophecy is off. What I love about that is that constant and continual study of God's Word, asking Him for understanding solves that, doesn't it? I have been so helped by the Lord when I have asked Him, understanding that only He can cause understanding by His revelation. I love Rabbi Schneider's heart for the Lord, and I am sad for any Jew who comes to any understanding of who Jesus is and then like the Galatians forgets that (I just punched into Google some parameters to have Galatians pop up to quote a verse, and would you know there is a whole article there on how Galatians PROVES that we should keep the law???!!!) where Paul writes clearly in Galatians 2, "“If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[b] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?[c] 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” and then the entire chapter 3, Paul states emphatically that one is saved by grace and not the law:

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The Changeless Promise

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i]who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j] that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Purpose of the Law

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Sorry, love Galatians, and thought I would just pull out the whole thing. I could read Galatians 1000 times and then again

[Daniel1210]

SaintTexas,
I was wondering about the program Discovering the Jewish Jesus, so did a search and this thread came up. I didn't realize it was from last year.

[billiefan2000]

If one-third of the "mainstram" Christian churches were as lit up about the end times as these Messianic Jews I think things would be a little different right now.

I agree.

[Lynn]

Messianic congregations are not a unified entity by any means, so it depends entirely on the individual congregation. A few are doctrinally sound, many are not. Many may seem to look good on paper per their Doctrinal Statements but either have *code words* that the uninitiated do not yet realize or the actual teachings or body life of the congregants to not bear out what they say they believe. Many, many believers who have started out in the Messianic area moved on into the Hebrew Roots cults (there is too often a blur between the two) - we know this by the testimonies of the ones who got out. Some do not get out; they become so enamored of *all things Jewish* and are fed a diet of Judaism, the Law, the rabbinical teachings from anti-Christian (and Gentile!) teachers, etc., that they ultimately deny Jesus and live as Jews.

Be careful.

I'm curious as to why you would refer to one member of the couple as an "ex-Protestant". I can understand the not wanting a label of a denomination as a self-defining thing, but are you saying you do not hold to Protestant theology? How would you describe the beliefs then?

This raises a red flag for me because it sounds like a couple who may be ripe for the very subtle and cunning lures of the Hebrew Roots/Messianic aberrations. If you are not very strong in your beliefs about the absolute and total grace of God in our salvation and in our sanctification, the "Hath God saids" of temptation to spiritual adultery can be very powerful.

Some good stuff here, wrapped up in the Conclusion:

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpr...ement-so-what/

iSong, the link you provided is excellent for reading about Hebrew Roots/Messianic Movement. We need discernment in this area, because when Christians aren't being fed spiritually at their current church, there is a tendency to go 'looking'
because of the deep hunger that is there. I, too, have thought I would enjoy going to a Messianic congregation during either Rosh Hashana or Passover, but just have never done so. I was glad to read the discerning cautions at the link you provided.

[Buzzardhut]

just as the emergent and seeker groups are overtaking many Bible churches, be wary of Hebrew Roots, and other legalistic and ritualistic agendas, as the primary focus in these "Messianic" fellowships. They just ultimately bring you back full circle to mystical Orthodox liturgicalism anyway. (nothing new under the sun)

[EarsToHear]

Please be careful with that one, Daniel.

He calls himself a "rabbi" but he's not. He used to be a regular pastor of a church. Sounds like a small thing, perhaps, but these people wanting the *authority* that they feel the term rabbi gives them is always a red flag, coming from long experience. And when Jesus said "Call no man Father" He also said "Call no man Rabbi".

We have threads about the Hebrew Roots cults and Messianic red flags, so I won't get into that here.

But bear in mind that most HR/Messianic groups are not pre-trib. Neither is this one, he believes we are in the "Time of Jacob's Trouble right here, beloved, right now!"

I love watching "The Jewish Jesus" for its jewels that tie the O.T. with the N.T, but lately (it seems since Daystar started carrying his show), he's gotten into a strange mix of exuberant t.v. evangelist preacher "Prayze JEsus, HALLeLU-yah, Father God THANK You Father God we PRAYZE You Father God, Father God we LOVE You Father God" with Jewish rabbi, and it's just plain weird--and that's not even including his many ?spiritual? dreams.

[Buzzardhut]

I love watching "The Jewish Jesus" for its jewels that tie the O.T. with the N.T, but lately (it seems since Daystar started carrying his show), he's gotten into a strange mix of exuberant t.v. evangelist preacher "Prayze JEsus, HALLeLU-yah, Father God THANK You Father God we PRAYZE You Father God, Father God we LOVE You Father God" with Jewish rabbi, and it's just plain weird--and that's not even including his many ?spiritual? dreams.

The 700 club version of HR