Messianic Churches

[ranman]

Be careful, they're very seductive. Not sure if you're looking at the sites for research purposes or to gather some sort of *knowledge* they say they possess?



Yep, there is.



Yes, I mean essential doctrines of the faith, the sorts of things different groups have as their statement of faith. In Christianity or whatever you want to call it, we believe in the Biblical "saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus/Yeshua alone".

The Judaists offer a *Yahushuah/etc* (by the way, all their variants are gibberish made up by them, they are not recognizable names in Hebrew, it is *Yeshua*) who points us back to the Law: to them his sacrifice only provides us the first step in law-keeping.

Their *jesus* is all about Jewishness. Nothing wrong with Jewishness, I am one, but in the Lord there is now no longer the wall of enmity between Jew and Gentile, we are one new man, neither Jew nor Gentile. Jews have nothing up on Gentiles in the Lord.



Correct. Paul spent much time fighting against the Judaizers in his own day, who came to spy out the liberty of the new believers and tried to put them under the yoke of legalistic Judaism.



There is a spectrum, some Messianic groups are okay, some are veering off into the Hebrew Roots groups, they are the cults. Hebrew Roots groups are the ones we really sound the alarm about, unfortunately in many Messianic groups there are the inroads of the HR cults. It happens when people start off on shifting sand and not solid doctrine.



The only issue I've found with him really is that he is a Calvinist, but I didn't realize that for so long, he doesn't make it an issue or hit people over the head like the John MacArthurs, et al. By "wacky" I mean something less than dangerous, I mean he thinks things like the AC will be a supernatural being and not a full man, a few things like that. I am, however, a total fan of his, I post his stuff here, no one is perfect, as long as they have essential doctrine down...we cannot compromise on that.

“Be careful, they're very seductive. Not sure if you're looking at the sites for research purposes or to gather some sort of *knowledge* they say they possess.”

There is no higher position or calling than to be in Christ trusting Him for our salvation. Jews and Gentiles together is the church or body of Christ.

An acquaintance of mine was into a HR guy named Michael Ruud, who was a self-proclaimed rabbi. I looked at his site and he turned out to be like Victor Paul Wierwill (The Way International) with so many crazy beliefs including denial of the Trinity and Christ’s deity, that it made me sad. I don’t even know if he was Jewish, but my co-worker was so enamored with that guy, It didn’t even bother him that he was anti-Trinitarian.
So yes, seductive and I think dangerous to one’s faith. And there are many more guys like that in the HR movement.

[quote = isong]
Yes, I mean essential doctrines of the faith, the sorts of things different groups have as their statement of faith. In Christianity or whatever you want to call it, we believe in the Biblical "saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus/Yeshua alone". [/quote]

That’s what I believe as well. You will also see "saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus alone".
On Calvinist reformed statements of faith too.

Dr. Fruchtenbaum also believes in that statement of faith too. I can’t find anywhere in his material where he is guilty of the support of legalism or trying to bring anyone back into bondage of the law or any other JR beliefs.
I was only trying to make the point that He is a Christian believer who is solid on the “essential” doctrines of the Christian faith. He just happens to be a Jewish man.

The Judaists offer a *Yahushuah/etc* (by the way, all their variants are gibberish made up by them, they are not recognizable names in Hebrew, it is *Yeshua*) who points us back to the Law: to them his sacrifice only provides us the first step in law-keeping.

That is probably true to a certain extent, but with The Frucht’s credentials in Hebrew being so far beyond me, I don’t want to belabor the point other than to say when he uses the name “Yeshua,” and sometimes he uses the Yeshua/Jesus phrase, I don’t take issue with it. I think you agree he is not teaching “Judaism. “

I don’t mind saying I am learning things from him I don’t know, but I like him for the reasons so many others like him, for explaining the bible from a Jewish frame of reference. I’m not a scholar or teacher. Just a 58 year old Christian guy.
And that is not the same thing as pushing Judaism.

As far as “Yeshua” who points us back to the law by using that name, I don’t think you mean Arnold. I feel the same way when I hear these Judaists bat around the phrase “Torah Observant.” What a crock!

Their *jesus* is all about Jewishness. Nothing wrong with Jewishness, I am one, but in the Lord there is now no longer the wall of enmity between Jew and Gentile, we are one new man, neither Jew nor Gentile. Jews have nothing up on Gentiles in the Lord.

Their jesus is another jesus and another gospel.

I know you like Arnold and I don’t think you tie him in with JR teaching.

I try to be aware of anti-Semitism and have nothing to do with it.

The only issue I've found with him really is that he is a Calvinist, but I didn't realize that for so long, he doesn't make it an issue or hit people over the head like the John MacArthurs, et al. By "wacky" I mean something less than dangerous, I mean he thinks things like the AC will be a supernatural being and not a full man, a few things like that. I am, however, a total fan of his, I post his stuff here, no one is perfect, as long as they have essential doctrine down...we cannot compromise on that.

He does say he is a Calvinist, but he doesn’t teach anyone is pre-destined to hell (limited atonement) like 5-pointers. He is different in a few other definitions of the system, but I’m not sure how to define classic Calvinism myself other than I don’t think Calvinism equals eternal security of the believer, which I do believe in.

I didn’t know he teaches the AC is a supernatural being, only that he does not have a human father, but is a man generated by the power of Satan. That is a very common belief, just like fallen angels having offspring with human women in Gen 6 creating the nephilim.

Blessings!

[ranman]

I read your entire post and then the above quoted portion 3 times and still am not clear as to your exact meaning.

Rather than risk further confusion through comment, as I await a further explanation, I'll defer to you for the time being with the assumption that perhaps it was you who were not very clear and not me misunderstanding.....

Dr. Fruchtenbaum is a fundamentalist believer who graduated under Dr. Ryrie at Dallas Theological Seminary.
He then got his doctorate in Hebrew studies in Jerusalem. He had a ministry in Israel that was winning so many to Christ that his life was threatened and he had to leave there and come back to the US for his own safety.

Just defending him. Probably didn't need to, but I think he doesn't deserve to be referred to as wacky or having some strange beliefs.

"It seems like anyone can be a theologian or a teacher of the Bible nowadays except for a Jewish person. Then they are treated like they don't know anything of value. I get the idea that there are too many people on this board that like him and are helped in their knowledge of the Bible by him or you and a few others would totally write him off."

I just got defensive for him. Real or perceived, I have had people I tried to show some of his writings to reject him just because he was Jewish. It was in the churches mostly, but It seemed like he was being indentified with Jewish Roots heresy on this board, and I just spoke up.

"One of the things I did appriciate about this board is the fact that I saw others who liked him and didn't have to feel bad about it."

On this quote, I did find others who liked him, also I liked the board because I have the same beliefs pre-mill rapture of the church, OSAS, Ect.

"Sorry if I am offended by some of the posts that disrespect his contributions. I guess you can call it like you see it but I don't want to be a part of anything that harms the Jews especially the ones who are turning to Christ. Anti-Semitism is not always overt. Sometimes it is very subtle."

It's late and I don't feel good. Take care and God bless!

[Steve53]

"Sorry if I am offended by some of the posts that disrespect his contributions. I guess you can call it like you see it but I don't want to be a part of anything that harms the Jews especially the ones who are turning to Christ. Anti-Semitism is not always overt. Sometimes it is very subtle."

Since you repeated the above and then failed to elaborate it begs the question - Do you feel you have witnessed anti-Semitism being displayed on this forum?

[iSong6:3]

There is no higher position or calling than to be in Christ trusting Him for our salvation. Jews and Gentiles together is the church or body of Christ.

An acquaintance of mine was into a HR guy named Michael Ruud, who was a self-proclaimed rabbi. I looked at his site and he turned out to be like Victor Paul Wierwill (The Way International) with so many crazy beliefs including denial of the Trinity and Christ’s deity, that it made me sad. I don’t even know if he was Jewish, but my co-worker was so enamored with that guy, It didn’t even bother him that he was anti-Trinitarian.
So yes, seductive and I think dangerous to one’s faith. And there are many more guys like that in the HR movement.

Yes, and further, in Jesus there are actually no Jews nor Greeks but something new - the "one new man". That is profound.

Right, Michael Rood is not only not Jewish but he was involved with The Way Int'l also, funny you mention that. He is an example of someone who is so far on the other side of the spectrum that he is considered a Hebrew Roots cultist. Do a search for him here, we have a thread.

Dr. Fruchtenbaum also believes in that statement of faith too. I can’t find anywhere in his material where he is guilty of the support of legalism or trying to bring anyone back into bondage of the law or any other JR beliefs.
I was only trying to make the point that He is a Christian believer who is solid on the “essential” doctrines of the Christian faith. He just happens to be a Jewish man.



That is probably true to a certain extent, but with The Frucht’s credentials in Hebrew being so far beyond me, I don’t want to belabor the point other than to say when he uses the name “Yeshua,” and sometimes he uses the Yeshua/Jesus phrase, I don’t take issue with it. I think you agree he is not teaching “Judaism. “

I don’t mind saying I am learning things from him I don’t know, but I like him for the reasons so many others like him, for explaining the bible from a Jewish frame of reference. I’m not a scholar or teacher. Just a 58 year old Christian guy.
And that is not the same thing as pushing Judaism.

As far as “Yeshua” who points us back to the law by using that name, I don’t think you mean Arnold. I feel the same way when I hear these Judaists bat around the phrase “Torah Observant.” What a crock!

The Frucht is not a Judaizer, he is not Hebrew Roots, I believe he considers himself an old fashioned Hebrew Christian - they're the ones with solid doctrine. No one here has an issue with his doctrine, you're right about that. If he's one you go to learn from you 're in good company with many here.

I was concerned only if you went to politically Messianic groups or cultic Hebrew Roots groups. That would be a mistake.

As for using the term Yeshua, that's not a problem, that was His Hebrew name. Fruchtenbaum isn't a Sacred Namer (an issue with the Hebrew Roots groups) nor does he make up gibberish like *Yahushuah*, that was my point, maybe you didn't understand.

Their jesus is another jesus and another gospel.

I know you like Arnold and I don’t think you tie him in with JR teaching.

I try to be aware of anti-Semitism and have nothing to do with it.

I'm proudly Jewish, there is no anti-Semitism here, only a rooting out of any bad doctrine where we find it. No worries, ranman.

He does say he is a Calvinist, but he doesn’t teach anyone is pre-destined to hell (limited atonement) like 5-pointers. He is different in a few other definitions of the system, but I’m not sure how to define classic Calvinism myself other than I don’t think Calvinism equals eternal security of the believer, which I do believe in.

I didn’t know he teaches the AC is a supernatural being, only that he does not have a human father, but is a man generated by the power of Satan. That is a very common belief, just like fallen angels having offspring with human women in Gen 6 creating the nephilim.

Blessings!

As I said, as long as it isn't infused into his teachings (several of us didn't know he is a Calvinist for the longest time) then he's not someone I take issue with.

[iSong6:3]

Dr. Fruchtenbaum is a fundamentalist believer who graduated under Dr. Ryrie at Dallas Theological Seminary.
He then got his doctorate in Hebrew studies in Jerusalem. He had a ministry in Israel that was winning so many to Christ that his life was threatened and he had to leave there and come back to the US for his own safety.

Just defending him. Probably didn't need to, but I think he doesn't deserve to be referred to as wacky or having some strange beliefs.

"It seems like anyone can be a theologian or a teacher of the Bible nowadays except for a Jewish person. Then they are treated like they don't know anything of value. I get the idea that there are too many people on this board that like him and are helped in their knowledge of the Bible by him or you and a few others would totally write him off."

I just got defensive for him. Real or perceived, I have had people I tried to show some of his writings to reject him just because he was Jewish. It was in the churches mostly, but It seemed like he was being indentified with Jewish Roots heresy on this board, and I just spoke up.

"One of the things I did appriciate about this board is the fact that I saw others who liked him and didn't have to feel bad about it."

On this quote, I did find others who liked him, also I liked the board because I have the same beliefs pre-mill rapture of the church, OSAS, Ect.

"Sorry if I am offended by some of the posts that disrespect his contributions. I guess you can call it like you see it but I don't want to be a part of anything that harms the Jews especially the ones who are turning to Christ. Anti-Semitism is not always overt. Sometimes it is very subtle."

It's late and I don't feel good. Take care and God bless!

Are we having parallel conversations here? Like Steve, I'm not sure what your issue is. Are you seeing some anti-Semitism here where there is none?

You may not have seen but I have a current thread on his Israelology study in the Prophecy forum.

I was clear to not call the man wacky, I was clear to say he has some wacky ideas. Not his doctrine, that would prompt a stronger reaction. Some of his ideas (like the hordes from the east, like the AC) are not what most Bible scholars say. No man has all perfect ideas, the Bible says it's clear that that won't happen.

Don't look to anyone, not the Frucht either, to be perfect in all understanding, don't take everything anyone says as unassailable truth unless it is.

Back to the Hebrew Roots issue, it may help some of the confusion here if you get the issue squared in your head. Here's a blog that is excellent in it's description and apologetics re: the Hebrew Roots cults and some Messianic issues. http://www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

[SaintTexas]

Just reading through the comments since I last posted here.

Ranman, I think iSong summed up what I think as well. No teacher is perfect, though he is better than most. There were some things that I wasn't sure I agreed with in Footsteps, but I appreciated that he is a literal and contextual teacher and he always seems to know where the cross-reference verses are, which I also appreciate. I knew nothing of him until I began to study here, trying to learn if a pre-trib rapture was acutally in the Bible. I love that he is Jewish and that he is also my brother in Christ--what a cool thing that Jesus has done here. Who can wrap their minds around His plans?? I had no clue that he considers himself a Calvinist--I don't recall this at all from any of his books or studies, but I have little kids and a loud house, so maybe while I was reading, it went in one eye and out the other.

I do understand what you are trying to say about anti-Semitism. You are not trying to be desparaging at all. I had a discussion with a friend who is RC and who does not think she is anti-Semetic despite her beliefs that are very much so---how can one believe that the Church replaced Israel and call that something else? I believe that this has to be the most Israel/Jewish loving group of people I have ever seen. I believe that this forum contributes to loving Jews and all men and realizing that we all have the same need for Jesus and a departure from the bondage of sin more than any I have ever seen, especially in the Apologetics forum where all kinds of people come on a post and are ministered to, witnessed to, prayed for and loved with the love of Jesus Christ.

Figuring out which teachers are problematic is very difficult. I tend to read very, very little now outside my Bible for that reason.

[ranman]

Ranman, where are you?? LOL Try a search for a Calvary Chapel on their locator. www.calvarychapel.com. Maybe there is one near you!

How does one arrive at grace giving and fulfillment of the law? Teaching the entire cousel of God book by book, verse by verse, line by line, in context taking into account grammar, history, context of, examining a passage with the light and balance of others for best understanding when needed. Praying for and relying on the Holy Spirit to teach. God isn't broke at our fellowship. He is Provider and moves us to give and bless with cheerful hearts. I feel sorry for folks who have a thermometer on their wall.

God bless you! Nicole

wichita ks

[HeIsEnough]

Are you seeing some anti-Semitism here where there is none?

I would go so far as to say this place is one of the few places on the net for christians that is not anti-Israel, our history proves it, and I would not be here if it was otherwise. And that we have more than a few Jews who post here.

Ranman, you should address this directly because you are letting it float out there and I'm not liking it, whether you meant it seriously or not, its not a charge I take lightly. Please respond.

[Steve53]

ranman -

Do you feel you have witnessed anti-Semitism being displayed on this forum?

Like Steve, I'm not sure what your issue is. Are you seeing some anti-Semitism here where there is none?

I would go so far as to say this place is one of the few places on the net for christians that is not anti-Israel, our history proves it, and I would not be here if it was otherwise. And that we have more than a few Jews who post here.

Ranman, you should address this directly because you are letting it float out there and I'm not liking it, whether you meant it seriously or not, its not a charge I take lightly. Please respond.

[SaintTexas]

Ranman,

You have two CC's there:

http://www.ccwichita.org/

http://www.calvarychapelwestwichita.com/

I have actually been to Witchita about 9 years ago. I was a Master Instructor for the Spinning program and spent the weekend there training instructors. I cannot remember the name of the place, but it wasn't open yet and still under construction and no one had the program there yet. It was downtown somewhere and small. The heat in July was a bad there as it is in Houston! Witchita is lovely.

[ranman]

ranman -

I have already addressed this and it has been answered already. I read some posts that seemed to me to reflect that, but as I already said I could have been wrong.

Since I can't write anything satisfactory about it. I am not anti-semitic myself. When you call someone like Arnold Fruchtenbaum wacky, It could lead to a mis-understanding about it.

Again, Isong answered that and was very gracious in her response.

So I don't want to be hammered anymore for it. That's not the Christian way to treat someone.

Yes thought there was, by a couple of posts that called Dr. Fruchtenbaum wacky, but you (Isong) answered that and I already said I was probably wrong about it.

When you are in a church and a bible study with people who are that way it makes you sensitive toward it. I got thrown out of a man's bible study because I wasn't amill and they were hostile towards me because they hate the rapture, and I didn't like the "Message." by Eugene Peterson. I am a little jumpy but comfortable in your board. But you also have to be comfortable with me.

I have spent a lot of energy and typing to explain about what I wrote. What should I do to make amends?

You vigorously attack Jewish Roots and the heresy that comes with it. I really like that. But please forgive me if I thought posters were lumping the Frucht in with the JR rabble rousers. Sometimes you don't read the posts right and you miss what the persons trying to say.

Maybe my post slipped in the wrong place, I don't navigate this site real well. That's all I can say about it.

But, Since this post should be all three mods, please let me know if this post doesn't make sense again or if I am "begging the question," or you don't see my point clearly. You either accept me the way I am or not.

Steve,
I got the wrong signal from you on an earlier post I wrote about baptism. I don't know you and I could have mistaken your good hearted comment as ridicule. For that I apologize. I wrote that I am not disrespectful of anyone elses beliefs and I am not. But I really like your comments about other things.
When you talk about what I write you seem to be less generous. I admit I am put off by it. Nothing to do with anyone else.

I don't know if I can do better right now at explaining myself. too many other problems to deal with. It's too hard to talk about spiritual things and what truth is in the word of God to have to keep driving and typing on personal criticisms. I want to enjoy my time on this board. I do spend a lot of time on here since I started.

As far as I know I don't have any heretical notions.

I don't want to talk about this anymore because of it being personal.

If you want me to leave this forum because of me thinking what I did, I'll do it.

Blessings to you three!

[ranman]

Ranman,

You have two CC's there:

http://www.ccwichita.org/

http://www.calvarychapelwestwichita.com/

I have actually been to Witchita about 9 years ago. I was a Master Instructor for the Spinning program and spent the weekend there training instructors. I cannot remember the name of the place, but it wasn't open yet and still under construction and no one had the program there yet. It was downtown somewhere and small. The heat in July was a bad there as it is in Houston! Witchita is lovely.

I'm not sure what spinning is but it sounds kind of neat!
One thing about the weather here, if it nasty, just wait it will be good tomorrow

[iSong6:3]

Yes thought there was, by a couple of posts that called Dr. Fruchtenbaum wacky, but you (Isong) answered that and I already said I was probably wrong about it.

Just to clarify once again since you're retelling it incorrectly above after I thought I explained it - I never called the Frucht wacky.

This is an Israel/Jew-loving board and no one could ever call me even near an *anti-Semite*.

Anti-Semites are quickly booted out RR's door.

Blessings to you three!

And to you.

[Steve53]

I have already addressed this and it has been answered already. I read some posts that seemed to me to reflect that, but as I already said I could have been wrong.

Pardon, but you did not address the question directly or we wouldn't have asked.

Since I can't write anything satisfactory about it. I am not anti-semitic myself. When you call someone like Arnold Fruchtenbaum wacky, It could lead to a mis-understanding about it.

That's why we dialog - to clear things up when there is a question. On this board especially we strive for clarity to avoid the mess that confusion creates.

So I don't want to be hammered anymore for it. That's not the Christian way to treat someone.

No one has "hammered" you.

I am a little jumpy but comfortable in your board. But you also have to be comfortable with me.

Take your time. No need to be jumpy.

I have spent a lot of energy and typing to explain about what I wrote. What should I do to make amends?

Carefully consider the words of another before responding. All any of us has to go on are the words and smilies we use to convey meaning and intent. On this board, everyone can generally assume a loving fellowship, rather than an an adversarial mindset.

But please forgive me if I thought posters were lumping the Frucht in with the JR rabble rousers. Sometimes you don't read the posts right and you miss what the persons trying to say.

Slow down. Take a breath, Re-read if necessary and then if you're still confused, ask.

Steve,
I got the wrong signal from you on an earlier post I wrote about baptism. I don't know you and I could have mistaken your good hearted comment as ridicule. For that I apologize.

No need to apologize for that. I saw you misunderstood and replied accordingly. I'm a generally happy guy and will joke around a fair bit. For the record, I don't comment in every thread I read or take issue with every point of view I see that I don't share. Oftentimes I prefer to let conversations evolve and let the members do all the talking. When we Mods comment in threads we can sometimes change the tenor of the conversation just because it was one of us posting. We all like to just "talk" and not have to moderate all the time. You'll learn to tell the difference I hope.

I wrote that I am not disrespectful of anyone elses beliefs and I am not. But I really like your comments about other things. When you talk about what I write you seem to be less generous. I admit I am put off by it. Nothing to do with anyone else.

You're still relatively new here. I'll grow on 'ya.

I don't know if I can do better right now at explaining myself. too many other problems to deal with. It's too hard to talk about spiritual things and what truth is in the word of God to have to keep driving and typing on personal criticisms. I want to enjoy my time on this board. I do spend a lot of time on here since I started.

Just remember we're a fellowship as I said above. If someone inquires of something you have written don't automatically assume the worst.

If you want me to leave this forum because of me thinking what I did, I'll do it.

No one has invited you to leave. We only seek clarity and obfuscation from any poster, whether deliberate or not, makes us put on our Moderator hats really fast. We hope you now understand the difference.

[SaintTexas]

Ranman,

You aren't missing anything. Spinning is going on a bike ride....indoors. LOL It's just a way to use that sport/equipment in physical training, that's it. And talk about wacky! I was trained by Johnny G (Goldberg, a Jew from South Africa who ended up in LA) himself who created the program and the equipment and was the persona of the business for a decade before his business partner undermined him and kicked him out when Johnny developed a heart problem that almost killed him. He definitely attempted to include a spiritual element, not a godly one. Old life, BC days for me, but I still always thought it was odd, but it has a cult-like following (the program and Johnny as well when he was part of it). I pray he and his family come to know the Lord. I think the fitness business is a difficult one to be in and live godly in Christ Jesus. I am glad to be out.

I believe you can listen before attending to check out the studies going on at either of the CC's. We have a wonderful pastor at ours who sticks right there in the Word and are blessed by his humility not to mislead us. We all love Israel, and I believe you will usually find the same in most CCs. I pray maybe you might find a home at one of them and experience the blessing of being fed the Lord's Word and sharing in edifying fellowship with other believers.

Side note: I just read Pleasing God by Kay Smith, who is the wife of Chuck Smith, who founded the first CC. In it, she calls Israel Palestine. This woman loves the Lord and Israel and the Jewish people and believes the Lord isn't done with them yet and I still find the reference to be "accidentally anti-Semetic". I don't think she intends it to be at all, but that was my immediate reaction though I prayed and thanked the Lord that word would not be remembered anymore in the future! Maybe what you are referring to are things that you have read here and there that come out that same way (unintensionally). There has to be more Jewish/Israel/Zionists here per capita than any other Christian forum! If something came out that way, I would believe it to be unintensional for sure.

I believe the mods have a list of rules to enforce and a difficult job and it takes a long time to get to know one another. And unintensional snarkiness on the computer seems to be a common problem AND I cannot tell you how many times I should have reread a post before posting myself! I actually reread an entire thread twice this morning before posting myself to be sure I was understanding what I read!

[ranman]

Pardon, but you did not address the question directly or we wouldn't have asked.



That's why we dialog - to clear things up when there is a question. On this board especially we strive for clarity to avoid the mess that confusion creates.



No one has "hammered" you.



Take your time. No need to be jumpy.



Carefully consider the words of another before responding. All any of us has to go on are the words and smilies we use to convey meaning and intent. On this board, everyone can generally assume a loving fellowship, rather than an an adversarial mindset.



Slow down. Take a breath, Re-read if necessary and then if you're still confused, ask.



No need to apologize for that. I saw you misunderstood and replied accordingly. I'm a generally happy guy and will joke around a fair bit. For the record, I don't comment in every thread I read or take issue with every point of view I see that I don't share. Oftentimes I prefer to let conversations evolve and let the members do all the talking. When we Mods comment in threads we can sometimes change the tenor of the conversation just because it was one of us posting. We all like to just "talk" and not have to moderate all the time. You'll learn to tell the difference I hope.



You're still relatively new here. I'll grow on 'ya.



Just remember we're a fellowship as I said above. If someone inquires of something you have written don't automatically assume the worst.



No one has invited you to leave. We only seek clarity and obfuscation from any poster, whether deliberate or not, makes us put on our Moderator hats really fast. We hope you now understand the difference.

I hope you know I had to look up the word obfuscation.

But I did misread some things, But After Isong talked about this with me I thought it was understood I did over react and saw anti-Semitism where there wasn't any. It's true, I might mess something up and put it in the wrong place. That could also lead to confusion.

I don't know how to recall past post up very well. But If I misrepresent something, I can take correction even being almost 59. But when you are just trying to recall from memory what spiked my comment, I probably did type it wrong. I didn't mean to misrepresent anyone.

Me and my wife attended a church in a suburb of Wichita. There was a bible teacher there who I gave two books to and paid for myself, Messianic Christology, and Footsteps of the Messiah. I had just discovered him not too long previously. But I thought he was great.

This bible teacher held him pretty much in contempt
He took pride in mocking Dr. Fruchtenbaum on every subject that he read. The preacher also didn't like the Dr. and he proudly told me that the Jews were just like every one else. He did his disertation in college on that one. so he was an expert so to speak.

He attended a college that believed and taught that it was wrong to intermarry with another people group, ( they called it another race but there is only one race,) since I am married to an asian lady, where did that leave me and her lost?

But that's what you get into in some churches, but the mocking of Dr. Fruchtenbaum by this bible teacher every time this opened his mouth, made me angry, and we left their church for that very reason.

He was also very nasty in what he said about Catholics, even when one was sitting right in front of him. My wife!

So like I said, I reacted a little strong to the comments, I know it's easy to take something wrong and react in the wrong way. That is what I did.

Isong talked to me about it. I thought it was okay. But when Bro Steve wanted clarification. I didn't know how to accomplish that. I spend a lot of time trying to clarify my points but sometimes it does just float away.
Sorry.

I really do like this board, I didn't mean to rant on about anti-Jewish sentiment where there wasn't any.

Actually, sometimes anti-fat people sentiment can be pretty discouraging too.

But, I didn't find that here!

About Dr. Fruchtenbaum, I don't think I agree with everything he says, but a lot of what he teaches I love discussing, he makes you think. Nobody is perfect I know.

I also like Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentacost, John Walvoord, Alva J.Mclean, ( who is a master of the book of Romans.) anyone who reads his book on Romans, would enjoy it, and David Cloud, and Ray Steadman and of course Thomas Ice.

I can see here on this board that people are learning to understand the bible and the truth of salvation here.
What a wonderful thing! I hope I can contribute to that end too. The longer I spend in the word the more I find I don't know.

No more rambling tonite.

The mods are great, even with the hats!

God bless!

[ranman]

Just to clarify once again since you're retelling it incorrectly above after I thought I explained it - I never called the Frucht wacky.

This is an Israel/Jew-loving board and no one could ever call me even near an *anti-Semite*.

Anti-Semites are quickly booted out RR's door.



And to you.

"Since I can't write anything satisfactory about it. I am not anti-semitic myself. When you call someone like Arnold Fruchtenbaum wacky, It could lead to a mis-understanding about it."

"Again, Isong answered that and was very gracious in her response."

"Yes thought there was, by a couple of posts that called Dr. Fruchtenbaum wacky, but you (Isong) answered that and I already said I was probably wrong about it."

If you mean calling the frucht wacky as opposed to him having some wacky beliefs, yes you are right, I am sorry for that. I am not even sure you are the only one i read saying that. But the light bulb is on now.
I did misquote what you said. If that is the issue I will humbly ask for forgivness.
In all sincerity my sister. I would not like anyone doing that to me either.

I love how you guys protect this board from anti-Semitism, I think that will make your efforts blessed by God.
You know you might be doing the same thing as Bro. Arnold. Training up the Jewish tribes for their evangelization of the world.

But the fact remains, I was wrong, I hope my last post told you why I felt the way I did. I did not mean to
cause hurt feelings either. You guys (mods) are great! How come rr doesn't have a chatroom? It would be good to have that right?

God bless!

[SaintTexas]

I enjoy all those teachers as well, though Dr Ryrie's book on Dispensationalism, while packed with nuggets, had to be one of the driest reads ever. Second to that has to be Renal Showers Marantha! Our Lord Come---absolutely a must read, but the level of detail they go into is for those who really, really, really love details (I do). I have a friend who borrowed this book and can't get herself unstuck. Fruct is the same way. Israeolology (the condensed version) was excellent.

I have Alva McClains Law and Grace. What a precious and wonderful little book on Galatians and Romans.

We are called to be ready to give an answer for our hope with gentleness. We come to the Lord because of His mercy towards us, and using a hammer to share the Truth was not the way of the Lord. Truth is truth, and what we need is the power of His spirit and His Word.

[ranman]

I enjoy all those teachers as well, though Dr Ryrie's book on Dispensationalism, while packed with nuggets, had to be one of the driest reads ever. Second to that has to be Renal Showers Marantha! Our Lord Come---absolutely a must read, but the level of detail they go into is for those who really, really, really love details (I do). I have a friend who borrowed this book and can't get herself unstuck. Fruct is the same way. Israeolology (the condensed version) was excellent.

I have Alva McClains Law and Grace. What a precious and wonderful little book on Galatians and Romans.

We are called to be ready to give an answer for our hope with gentleness. We come to the Lord because of His mercy towards us, and using a hammer to share the Truth was not the way of the Lord. Truth is truth, and what we need is the power of His spirit and His Word.

Had a reply, when I hit submit reply, my puter coughed and tried to process, but I got the " you are not logged in please log in." After that, I logged in and then nothing but empty screen! I had to find the rr-bb website again but alas! my post is somewhere out there in the netherworld. I don't know if it will make to shore or not.

Great pearls of wisdom just floated away :lol2

(sigh!)

blessings to all!

[Steve53]

.... and using a hammer to share the Truth was not the way of the Lord.

Jesus is not a pacifist wimp looking to charm everyone into believing. Lest one forget, Jesus swings a mighty hammer and one day soon will wield a mighty sword.

Truth is truth, ...

And the Truth can sometimes be painful for those on the receiving end.