Messianic Churches

[lorenei]

There are some non-Jewish Christian teachers who go into great detail of all the Jewish traditions and relate them back to Christianity, Chuck Missler does an excellent job with it He seems to know everything about the Jewish culture in relation to the Bible but always brings it back to Christ.

[carol1948]

I've had limited experience with a Messianic congregation, but have never had anyone who attended it not claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. IMO, whether its Hebrew Roots or something else we must be discerning. Anytime anyone wants/tries to require something or put something between me and Jesus, that is a red flag for me. I do like to learn about the Hebrew culture during and before Jesus' time as it seems to expand my knowledge and understanding, but doesn't change what I already know to be truth.

[HeIsEnough]

Yes, I am actually around page 450 in The Footsteps of the Messiah. I love Fruchtenbaum. He has to be the most literal eschatologic scholar I have read to date when it comes to scripture. I have learned a great deal from his book.

I also own The Complete Jewish Bible translated by David Stern, which has been interesting when I use it with an original word study online, though I prefer an NASB.

Just so you know ST, even in Arnolds fellowship those same code words and subtle mixing can be an issue. One brother, Tio, left there over those sorts of issues. Not that the leadership condoned it, its just sort of the way things work out in this world we live in. Be careful and don't be surprised if you run into it, because its bound to happen.

[SaintTexas]

Rabbi Schneider's dreams are quite odd. I had forgotten about them.

I read a book by a HR (who is a Gentile) guy on the two houses of Israel awhile back. The guy was so detailed in his research and his citation of scripture and in certain areas had done an excellent job, however, in one section he was assigning years tracing history but he had no assignment for the amount of time that Jacob and his family were in Egypt (he cited "x" of a unknown number of years)....yet in the Bible as plain as day it says 435 years in Exodus 12:40. My daughter and I had been studying Genesis together, and I was in Exodus at the time, studying ahead of us, so I remembered reading this right away----it's because we follow Jesus and study His Word that we know Truth and the amazing grace of the Lord, whether we are reading an empiracle fact or a spiritual truth.

We make a choice about who and what we are following: Jesus or someone or something else? I choose Jesus. His Word is clear and sufficient. If I elect to read something outside the Bible about the Lord (etc), listen to someone teach, etc., what I need to do is be a Berean and check it out against the Scripture.

I love that we have a pastor at our church who wants us to learn to fish for ourselves. I already know that I cannot ask him a question without exhausting my Bible on my own first, because that will be his first question. It's nice when you are young in the Word to have some help, but there is nothing that replaces reading our Bibles and asking the Lord to teach us by His Spirit about the Truth.

[EarsToHear]

The 700 club version of HR

In an Ephesians study I saw on "Discovering the Jewish Jesus" recently, Kirt Schneider said because we are heirs with Christ, that the Father is our family and that we thus "own the Father." He repeated the phrase several times.

Wally posted in Shabutie's thread, post 220, that He owns us. In truth, yes.

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1630...estions/page11

[SaintTexas]

In an Ephesians study I saw on "Discovering the Jewish Jesus" recently, Kirt Schneider said because we are heirs with Christ, that the Father is our family and that we thus "own the Father." He repeated the phrase several times.

Wally posted in Shabutie's thread, post 220, that He owns us. In truth, yes.

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1630...estions/page11

Own the Father? I think that I can imagine where he was attempting to go with it, but he missed some scripture clearly letting us know who is the owner and what the relationship is. I am the Lord's and He is mine, but He owns me. I am His bondservant. I am a sheep under His care. He is my master and my owner. I am certainly not His. I wonder how he ended up where he did with this thought. That is very odd....and sad.

There is a passage coming up now yesterday and today, but I didn't post it yesterday. I will now though since the Lord keeps bringing it into my thoughts. From 1 Corinthians 3:

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Thanks for the update on Rabbi Schneider. That is enough nonsense for me to be sure to mention it to my husband as well. Why can't those who call themselves teachers of God's Word just stick to God's Word and explaining it within the parameter's God set for It (staying within the text)and check ALL of God's counsel to see if they are on track or fell off a cliff? God addresses nonsense done in the body of Christ in the passage above.

[Steve53]

Why can't those who call themselves teachers of God's Word just stick to God's Word and explaining it within the parameter's God set for It (staying within the text)and check ALL of God's counsel to see if they are on track or fell off a cliff?

I believe most start out with good intentions but the allure of having a "following" can lead many astray - and has.

[SaintTexas]

I believe most start out with good intentions but the allure of having a "following" can lead many astray - and has.

You are right, absolutely.

They start with the Truth and then things begin to fall apart when they do not continue with the Truth.....but lean unto their own understanding. I would dare say that a belief that we own the Father is an excellent example of this in light of the whole counsel of God. If Rabbi Schneider had continued in the Word for interpretation of whereever in Scripture the aforementioned idea came from, this would never have been his interpretation or application. Immediately makes me think about the Lord making our paths straight and not veering to the right or to the left...

As I said in an earlier post, if we stick with God's Word as our filter for the mouths and ideas of men, It will faithfully show us what the Truth is and whether to accept or reject a teaching......and a teacher as well.

[iSong6:3]

There are some non-Jewish Christian teachers who go into great detail of all the Jewish traditions and relate them back to Christianity, Chuck Missler does an excellent job with it He seems to know everything about the Jewish culture in relation to the Bible but always brings it back to Christ.

Exactly right, there are so many great pastors and teachers who know and edify their congregations with this information, not just "Messianic-types."

Why flirt with danger when we can get the same information from solidly Biblical wells, as if anything stamped with *Jewish* (even if they're not) is inherently *better* for some reason.

[SaintTexas]

Exactly right, there are so many great pastors and teachers who know and edify their congregations with this information, not just "Messianic-types."

Why flirt with danger when we can get the same information from solidly Biblical wells, as if anything stamped with *Jewish* (even if they're not) is inherently *better* for some reason.

Agreed. Our Gentile, Calvary Chapel pastor does an excellent job. The only thing we watch on any consistent basis outside our own church studies now is JD Farag (CC Kanoehe) and his prophecy updates. Chuck Missler does as well. I have Missler's Gog-Magog CD and we still have not watched it and need to do so!

When I started the thread, we had been there about three times and my husband was still considering going to a Messianic congregation. This was well over a year ago. A lot has changed for us since I started this thread, praise the Lord. Those questions I had at that time have been more than answered---and to a large extent, the Lord used Hebrew Christians to do this.

My pastor has studied Fruchtenbaum, btw. When I had some questions over a year ago, he recommended The Footsteps of the Messiah to me (and I had already finished it), but the best tool that he introduced to us was the inductive study method, which is what he, every CC pastor, and Fruchtenbaum (other solid expositors) use, and we can now fish with the teaching of the Holy Spirit too. The most essential part of IBS is that there is no shortcut to reading and studying every word in the whole counsel of God for each of us!

[Xenosjeff]

Could you expound upon the IBS method please?

I have read F of t M and would like some background on the process he uses. I have been learning in the "Line by line , precept upon precept" Calvary Chapel way for years but I am not aware of the study method by the name of IBS. Maybe I am looking too hard?

Jeff

[Lynn]

Jeff, see if this pdf will be of help from a Calvary Chapel pastor.

http://www.calvarychapelpasadena.com...tive_study.pdf

[WickIsTrimmed]

Thanks for the PDF, Lynn.

I've read it before but another reading makes some points more understandable!

[SaintTexas]

http://www.preceptaustin.org/inductive_bible_study.htm

Jeff, This site has a link to the materials that my daughter and I have from the course we took last year. I had stumbled on the method on my own even before we started to attend our Calvary Chapel, in part just from my own study and asking the Lord for understanding of His Word and also in part as well from this site and coming across notes on the basics of this. BUT, it does have a name, and it's ridiculously simple. It keeps you on track as you work through passages, especially the more difficult ones where there are multiple parties in the passage, future prophecy, etc. Prophecy is one of the most difficult things to work through, as we worked through the different types of writing in the Bible. Think Olivet Discourse or Daniel 9 for instance for difficult passages and where multiple interpretations are common, and there can only be one correct interpretation--God means what He says. The method observes the Word as literal and respects contextual, grammatical, historical, symbols are defined by the Word and not the reader of the Word, and relies on the Holy Spirit for illumination.

If you go to a Calvary Chapel, this is the way they teach, but it is not exclusive to CC's.

[LindaR]

I have two documents in my computer files...they were emailed to me by the author, who is a born again Jewish believer, Dr. Mark Robinson. Both documents overlap (one is an abbreviated version of the other one). They cannot be found online. If anyone is interested in reading these docs, let me know. The titles of these docs are:

Doctrinal Dangers in the Messianic Movement and Messianic Judaism: Doctrinal and Practical Problems (this one is the text of a message given by Dr. Mark Robinson at a Discernment conference. I don't know the date of this conference).

Dr. Robinson has a ministry called Jewish Awareness Ministries. It is not Messianic, nor is it connected in any way with the Messianic movement. This ministry works through the local church. It is a Jewish evangelism ministry...their purpose is to reach Jews for Jesus Christ.

http://www.jewishawareness.org/

Another great Jewish evangelism ministry is International Board of Jewish Missions. This ministry also works through the local church and our IFB church here in rural Mississippi has had one of their missionary couples speak at our church in 2007. This couple lives in Atlanta, GA sharing Christ with the Jewish people there.

http://www.ibjm.org/Welcome.html

[atinja]

I just witnessed Mark Robinson's testimony at my church last week during our Christmas program! He actually attends my church and teaches one of the adult Bible studies there. Glad to know other people have heard of him and his ministry, Jewish Awareness.

[LindaR]

I just witnessed Mark Robinson's testimony at my church last week during our Christmas program! He actually attends my church and teaches one of the adult Bible studies there. Glad to know other people have heard of him and his ministry, Jewish Awareness.

Praise the Lord atinja! You must live in North Carolina. My sister in law lives in Greensboro. Do you subscribe to Israel's Messenger?

I know Jewish Awareness has a live Friday night Bible study online, but unfortunately there is no way I can be at the live online study, but I do listen to the re-broadcasts and they are great. Have you attended any of those studies?

[LindaR]

I shared this doc, and a longer one on the same topic, with iSong6:3 and she suggested that I post it in this thread. The article is not found online, but perhaps one can request it from the author (Dr. Mark Robinson):

Jewish Awareness Ministries

By Mark Robinson

DOCTRINAL DANGERS IN THE MESSIANIC MOVEMENT

The last 40 years have seen a great turning of Jewish people to Jesus. With this influx of Jewish believers into the body of Christ an old movement has been resurrected.1 This movement, Messianic Judaism, emphasizes the Jewish background of the believers and their desire to identify with the larger Jewish community.

Having served in Jewish missions for 28 years, I rejoice that many of my "kinsmen according to the flesh" have found their Messiah. I am troubled, though, by the doctrinal errors of the movement. Can any movement that is doctrinally in error on many issues remain true to our Lord and the Bible over time?

DEFINING MESSIANIC JUDAISM

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations defines Messianic Judaism as "...a movement of Jewish congregations and congregation-like groupings committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant."2

Dr. Bruce Stokes, vice-president of the Association of Messianic Believers, states, "the development of the Hebrew Christian movement into Messianic Judaism has brought about several significant changes in the theology, lifestyle and expectations of today's Messianic Jew. The most significant change has been establishment of Messianic congregations as normative for Messianic Jews and Gentiles of like mind."3

HISTORY OF MESSIANIC JUDAISM

Present-day Messianic Judaism has its origins in the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA) which was established in 1915. At the 1973 biennial meeting of the HCAA in Bradenton, Florida, there was an effort to change the name to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. This change did not take place until 1975 but 1973 can be looked at as the first organized attempt to begin the modern-day Messianic Movement. Then in 1975, Phil Goble, a Gentile believer, published Everything You Need to Grow a Messianic Synagogue. American Board of Missions to the Jews (now Chosen People Ministries) reviewed the manual and attributed the beginning of Messianic Synagogues to Goble.4

Presently there are more than 300 Messianic congregations5 throughout the world. The majority of these congregations are located in the United States. Some Jewish believers will drive many miles, passing good Bible believing churches, to be part of these congregations.

DOCTRINAL ERRORS

There are a number of questionable theological and practical issues6 with Messianic Judaism. Let us consider three doctrinal errors.

SYNCRETISM IN THE PRACTICE OF OUR FAITH IN MESSIAH

Many in the Messianic Judaism movement see "Jewishness" as more important than their identity as Christians. This Jewish emphasis takes the form of adopting worship practices more closely aligned with the rabbinic world than the Bible-believing church. Jeffrey Wasserman writes, "Present day Messianic Jewish congregations are made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus who have rejected historic Christian congregational expressions as being 'Gentile.' They have chosen to express their religious identity and corporate worship in a more genuinely Jewish style."7 This "genuinely Jewish style" is oftentimes rabbinically based.

The wearing of yarmulkes, the observance of bar and bat mitzvahs, the present practice of the observing of holy days such as Yom Kippur, as well as other practices, are rooted in rabbinic Judaism, not the Bible. One would think that the unbiblical syncretism of these practices with New Testament truth would be obvious to the leaders of this movement. Seemingly, it is not. The focal point of a believer's life should be Jesus, not his cultural background, and certainly not religious practice that embraces a system, rabbinic Judaism, which historically has been in opposition to Christianity and the Messiahship of Jesus.

The desire to be Jewish and be accepted as part of the Jewish community can lead to compromises that may ultimately cause one to reject some of the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. Dr. William Varner, professor of Bible at The Master’s College, raises the question whether the desire on the part of some proponents of Messianic Judaism "to redefine the doctrines [of the Trinity and full deity and humanity of Christ] so carefully hammered out at Nicea and Chalcedon is cause for alarm. Will this result in limiting the full deity of Messiah?"8 Unfortunately, the deity of Christ is an issue in some Messianic circles. It is a problem in Israel and recently I spoke to a leader of a Messianic congregation in San Diego County that lost about 8 people who denied the deity of Jesus. I was told this dissident group desired to start a new congregation but it never materialized.

THE "REBUILDING" OF THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION

Ephesians 2:14-15 tell of the new work God has done in Christ. "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." Jew and Gentile are now one in Christ. He has abolished the ordinances of the Mosaic Law.

The clear teaching of the above has not prevented the establishing of Messianic congregations. Practices derived from the Law-mixed with rabbinical practices-oftentimes result in an attitude of cultural superiority over the rest of the body of Christ. Pride is an affront to God, including cultural pride. As Paul said, "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" (Phil. 3:8). A Jewish believer's main identity should not be his Jewishness but his relationship with Christ.

Let us not put up barriers that hinder a person's walk with the Lord. When the focus of a believer's life is anything but the Lord Jesus, there is sin and detriment to the spiritual health of the individual. God has called believers, Jew and Gentile, to a new relationship focused on the Messiah. We are to worship together around the Word of God. To separate Jewish believers into a congregation based on the very ordinances that are done away in Christ, and are in reality the institution of Christ-denying Rabbis, is not only a sin against our Messiah but is also detrimental to the health of local congregations as well as individuals.

CHARISMATIC AND ECUMENICAL INFLUENCE

One of the major influences in the Messianic Movement is the teaching and acceptance of the charismatic gifts. Even in the more conservative Messianic congregations it seems that there is not a strong stand in opposition to the practice of Charismatic gifts and teaching.

A few years ago I had a private correspondence with the leader of a Jewish mission agency that had been opposed to Messianic Congregations. This leader told me that their mission is now comfortable with the Fellowship of Messianic Congregations (FMC) and said that many FMC congregational leaders were graduates of institutions that were "theologically sound." In addition to his letter, he sent me the doctrinal statement of the FMC. Let me quote a section of my return letter to him. "The implication of the section on the gift of tongues [from the FMC doctrinal statement] is that today's practice is biblical and correct but unduly emphasized...We both know that many in the Messianic Judaism movement, probably the great majority, are charismatic. Is this issue compromised so that FMC will not alienate Jewish believers that are charismatic? If this is so, is it not probable that other compromises will be made with the Scriptures to accommodate Jewish believers in the future?" In response this leader acknowledged the treatment of charismatic gifts could be strengthened.

Many leaders of Messianic Judaism are ecumenical in their practice. In 2002 a booklet was published entitled Toward Jerusalem Council II: The Vision and the Story (TJCII). TJCII is defined in its vision statement as "an initiative of repentance and reconciliation between the Jewish and Gentile segments of the Church. The vision is that one day there will be a second council of Jerusalem that will be, in an important respect, the inverse of the First Council described in Acts 15. Whereas the First Council was made up of Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus), who decided not to impose on the Gentiles the requirements of the Jewish law, so the Second Council would be made up of Gentile leaders, who would recognize and welcome the Jewish believers in Yeshua without requiring them to abandon their Jewish identity and practice."9

The Jewish members of the steering committee of TJCII include some of the most prominent figures in Messianic Judaism such as Dan Juster, Marty Waldeman, and Jonathan Bemis. Some of the Gentile members of the steering committee are Johannes Fictenbauer, (a Catholic deacon from Vienna, Austria and the founder of an ecumenical charismatic community in Vienna in the 1970s), Brian Cox (an Episcopal priest in Santa Barbara, California), Peter Hocken (a Roman Catholic priest presently living in Maryland), and a spot still held open for a representative from the Orthodox Church.

Those of us who hold fast to the Word of God and know the history and beliefs of Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Episcopalianism, will not have anything to do with Toward Jerusalem Council II. It is a shame that these Messianic leaders are involved.

CONCLUSION

The Messianic Movement is fraught with dangerous doctrines and practices. The historical drift of "movements" is always toward compromise. This is true of the Messianic Movement over the last 30 years. The churches of IFCA International need to get actively involved in reaching their Jewish community with the gospel and welcoming Jewish believers into their midst. Ministries can be established in local churches to help bridge the cultural gap of Jewish believers and to establish them in their walk with their Messiah. Messianic Judaism is not the answer.

Endnotes

1 The eminent Hebrew Christian David Baron wrote an article titled "Messianic Judaism; or Judaising Christianity" in the October 1911 issue of The Scattered Nation warning about Messianic Judaism in his day.

2 From the 23rd Annual UMJC Conference, July 31, 2002. UMJC
website, http://umjc.org/newsite/faq/mj_def.htm

3 Stokes, Bruce, Messianic Jewish Life, The Messianic Congregational Model: What Should It Look Like?, Jan.- Mar. 2001, Vol. LXXII, No.1, page to.

4 The Chosen People, Messianic Synagogues Commentary, Vol. LXXXI No.5, page 14, Jan. 1976.

5 Wasserman, Jeffrey, Messianic Jewish Congregations: Who Sold this Business to the Gentiles?, pg. 3, University Press of America, 2000.

6 See Dr. William Varner's article, "Do We Need Messianic Synagogues? Biblical, Historic, and Pragmatic Issues," Spring, 2003, The Master's Seminary Journal, Sun Valley, CA and Baruch Maoz's book, "Judaism is Not Jewish," Christian Focus Pub., 2003, for some of the practical issues in addition to doctrinal problems.

7 Wasserman, Messianic Jewish Congregations, pg. 3.

8 Varner, "Do We Need Messianic Synagogues?", pg. 58.

9 Hocken, Peter, Toward Jerusalem Council II: The Vision and the Story, Appendix C, page 45, Toward Jerusalem Council II, 2002.

[iSong6:3]

Thank you for sharing this article above and the other article in the other thread also, Linda.

Very sobering, there are several of us who know what he says is true.

[LindaR]

Thank you for sharing this article above and the other article in the other thread also, Linda.

What other thread? I only shared this one, which is the shorter version. Am I confusing you???????

If you would like, I can post the link to that article on Jewish missions and Messianic Judaism in this thread also. The other article on the doctrinal dangers of the Messianic movement is really long and would take 2 or 3 posts to post the entire thing. That's why I posted the shorter version here.

Very sobering, there are several of us who know what he says is true.

Yes, it certainly is.