Of course scripture does not contradict itself my friend. It is infallible. It is truth. Truth cannot contradict truth.
Those passages say that forgiveness of sins comes through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross. No disagreement here. However, your not addressing my claim that he gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name.
Here is a cut and paste from this thread: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=10846 entitled: Confession and John 20:21-23
So here's my POV on why the gospel is the key. Being saved must carry along with it, forgiveness, and even greater; remission of sin. By definition. If I'm truly saved, I must be forgiven. Why? We both know God doesn't abide sin. I must be washed of my sin, and that includes forgiveness of those sins. How am I washed of sin? By Christ's sacrifice. How do I claim that sacrifice as my washing?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
That's all it takes to be saved. Again, to be saved we must be forgiven, so somewhere in there, my sins were forgiven me, by my faith in Jesus' Faith and sacrifice. If that is what it takes to be saved, how can "I" save another? I spread the gospel. As Paul said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
"We" are actually forgiving sin, saving people, by the gospel. The apostles were going into places that had never heard the word of the Lord. What was the "bare bones" message preached?
You're sinners in need of salvation. You are all in sin. Christ came and died for your sin, so that you may be saved. If you accept Christ, if you come to have faith, you will be saved, your sins forgiven you. If you don't come to Christ, you'll get no forgiveness, you retain your sin.
I've just locked them in. I've preached Christ, and unlocked forgiveness for them, and I've basically locked in the unbelievers' sins, by preaching Christ. John 8:24 says Christ preached: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. We go preach the same thing.
The retaining of sins is based on whether or not one believes that Christ is who He said He is. By us preaching the gospel, which is the good news of Christ, we forgive/retain sin the same way.
Not really: looking at scripture, we have this:
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
And we have this:
John 8:24 says Christ preached: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
We go preach the same thing.
There are some important points here to consider. The first is, that by implication if you believe that "Christ is He" then you will NOT die in your sins. If you do not believe that Christ is He, then you WILL die in your sins. So, whether or not we die in our sins is totally reliant on our Faith in Christ, He makes this clear. He sent the Apostles as the Father sent Him; so what He preached they'll preach.
Here's another important point to consider: We are so used to this idea, we forget to whom Christ is speaking and to whom these apostles are being sent. To the Jewish people of Christ's day, how were sins paid for? How could you avoid dieing in sin? You made a blood sacrifice, you made atonement. Christ said, not anymore; that animal sacrifice, that atonement is no longer good enough after He's through. After hearing Christ preach, or preached, the only way to salvation is by believing Christ was who He said He was; Christ made that clear.
So, we have the apostles going to people who have never heard Christ preached; after He is preached the only way to get your sins removed is via belief/faith in Christ, this is what Christ Himself preached. So, by preaching the gospel you are both remitting sin, and retaining it, depending on if those who listen either 1) believe (their sin is forgiven) and 2) don't believe (their sin is retained). After Christ is preached, there is no way out of their sin, except through belief in Christ, in effect, by preaching the word to new ears, you are locking them into either two choices. As Doc Scott used to say, "The same word brings life to some and death to others."
There are other ways of looking at this passage, as Tom has pointed out. However, I feel that by looking at the entire context of the Gospel message, such as
1) Paul's preaching Christ and Him raised as the number one main thing
2) Christ's shed blood for the remission of sin, and our Faith being what taps into that promise, not our sin confessions to other humans, or other humans actually forgiving sin directly
3) Belief in Christ is what frees us from sin, and grants eternal life, (this one is repeated over and over again in the Bible)
we can see that the gospel message of Faith in Christ Himself, not a human priest absolving sin in a confessional, is how we get forgiveness of sin. Again, confession one to another is a good thing, but not needed for us to rid ourselves of sin.
Last edited by Kliska; September 25th, 2007 at 07:13 PM.
Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig
Hey, a couple people on this board already informed me that logic cannot be trusted because it is a tool used by the devil. Also, it is scripture that Jesus sent his apostles out to forgive sins as Jesus's representative.
Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig
Thats not what that verse meant. He did not send his apostles out to forgive sin. He sent them out with the gospel. Those who believed the gospel(Christ) were forgiven...those who rejected the gospel were not forgiven. That isn't the apostle's doing....but the work of the Lord.
True Christians go beyond belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior.
We go beyond following rules and good deeds.
We have an intimate relationship with the real Jesus because we place our faith in His sacrifice for our sins and trust in His Blood covering over us.
We understand Jesus has entered our lives and regenerated our spirits when we confessed our Sins to Him and gave our lives to Him so that we have become new creations in Jesus. II Corinthians 5:17
So we become a part of the body of Jesus through this personal salvation experience and the Holy Spirit dwells within the tabernacle of our body.
So we do the good works we allow the Holy Spirit to do through us not because we hope to be saved but because we are already permanently sealed and saved.
The true Gospel is something no religion on Earth could ever offer, especially catholicism.
Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
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If this is as you say, then why did not one of the Apostle ever do this?The key to the John passage is "Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
In any literal and authoritative sense, this power was never exercised by one of the Apostles, and plainly was never understood by themselves as possessed by them or conveyed to them. The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense -- as the authorized interpreters of His Word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline.
As with all Scripture, using single verses or groups of verses without keeping everything in context can lead to confusion and misinterpretation. The Apostles clearly understood what authority Jesus was giving to them, and it wasn't actually going about telling people that they (the Apostles) were forgiving them of their sins against their Holy Father.
If you believe you're a good person:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
- Romans 3:10
If you believe all paths lead to Heaven:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
- John 14:6
If you pray to Mary, Saints, Idols or Images:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
- 1 Timothy 2:5
While I respect you and your opinion, I can't say that I totally agree with you. Confessing one's sins to another deals with accountabililty - which we all need to be open to. However, confessing for the sake of accountability and the eternal forgiveness of sins by a priest, I believe are quite different.
We are Christ's representatives. Being an Apostle and a representative doesn't not render one infallible or equal to God. Thus, the authority given to Christ is not our authority. Consider Phil. 2
1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
To imitate Christ is to humble oneself - that's quite a tall order for us mere mortals to fill. Christ knew we would need help, so He sent His Holy Spirit. Through His guidance, we are able to choose to walk in the Spirit and allow Christ to continue His ministry through us. I do not believe this means that we have the same authority as Christ but become His servants in order that He may be glorified.
"As the Father has sent me" carries the implication that Christ was sent out as a servant. He humbled Himself unto death for the sake of God's Message and plan of salvation. Therefore, it is Christ who has earned all the glory. Not us. We won't share in His full glory until He returns and our sanctification process will be complete.
Think about it. If certain men - and not others - have the authority to forgive or not to forgive eternal sins, then what is the purpose of the Cross? How, then is Christ glorified? If He did not earn the right to judge, then who has?
No, my friend - and I say that with sincerity of heart - forgiveness of eternal sins lies solely in the hands of God, and God has given Jesus Christ, our High Priest, authority over all Heaven and earth.
Grace and Peace to you.
I don't put words into people's mouths. You said human logic is a tool used by the devil. What do you call the logic Kliska was referring to? Just because I am Catholic and he is not Catholic does not mean he can use logic in his arguments and I cannot.
Kliska - I am currently taking a Logic 101 class as an elective. Very interesting and useful material. I now understand why you have shown yourself to be the best apologist on the threads I have been on. Thanks for your insightful input!
Just to clarify, goinghome never said Kliska can use logic in his arguments and I cannot. I said that based on her reaction to me using logic in my arguments in another thread and her relative backtracking on this thread with regard to logic.
You are forgiven my friend. I have to admit that I had to look up Word of Faith because I had no idea what you were referring to. Health and wealth gospel. I agree with your statement about human minds being vulnerable. I know 99 % of the people on this board are going to disagree with me but one of the main strengths of belonging to the Catholic Church is that we cannot be seduced by such false teachings as long as we stick to 2000 years of Church doctrine. I know more than one person is going to rave about how the Church is the false teacher and so on. Save your energy and we can agree now to disagree about that. I would claim the same goes for members of the Orthodox Church as well.
I am very happy that you were able to leave that cult and find a more Bible-based church. May the ultimate deceiver that leads people to false gospels like that (the devil) burn in hell for that and may people who have bought into the teachings and even helped the devil lead people astray be forgiven and return to Jesus's flock.
Confessing Sins to a Priest
Regarding the forgiveness of sins, two critical doctrines must be examined. First, all sins must be confessed to a priest:
"One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience." Pg. 374, #1493
"Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance:" Pg. 365, #1456
"It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. Pg. 357, #1424 (See also Pg. 374, #1493).
Catholicism orders members to confess their sins to a man, but the Bible reveals that those who have been born into God's family can go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins:
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. " Psalm 32:5
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
David confessed his sins to God when he prayed:
"Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me." Psalm 51:2-3
Here is why true Christians have access to God' s throne:
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus..." Hebrews 10:19
Because of the sinless blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross, we have the authority to go straight to the throne of God for forgiveness.
The "first pope's" example
In the book of Acts, a man named Simon came to the alleged first pope, Peter, wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. How did Peter respond to this sin? Did he suggest that Simon make a confession to him right there? No, Peter told him to repent and confess his sin to God and ask God to forgive him. (See Acts 8:18-22).
Can priests forgive sins?
The second part of this doctrine suggests that Catholic priests have the power to forgive sins:
"Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ." Pg. 374, #1495 (See also Pg. 364 #1448)
Here, too, Catholic doctrine opposes God's Word:
"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Catholicism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man. (See Pg. 365, #1456). But the Bible recognizes only one mediator:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5
Once again, the Catechism admits that these are not instructions from God, but traditions of men:
"The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as the second plank [of salvation]..." Pg. 363 #1446
"According to the Church's command, 'after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.'" Pg. 365, #1457 (Emphasis author's)
There is that word "bound" again. The Church Fathers created another tradition which keeps people in bondage to the Catholic church.
What a powerful weapon to use against Catholics around the world. In essence, this doctrine says that if you leave the Catholic church, you will not be able to obtain forgiveness for your sins, which means you won't go to heaven.
Please remember, none of this came from God! These are all man-made threats. May God open your spiritual eyes and give you understanding, so that you may see the depth of the bondage this religion holds you in. May God show you that you don't have to be held captive to this religion any longer. Jesus Christ wants to set you free.
Millions of faithful Catholics blindly file into confessional booths, believing that the priest has the power to forgive their sins.
What about you? Where will you go to have your sins forgiven? To a sinful priest, as the man-made traditions of the Catholic church demand?
Or will you go straight to God Almighty, as the Bible teaches?
"Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD. Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared." Psalm 130:1-4
Formal logic and reasoning can be an apologists tool (just one among many), but we also must be thoroughly soaked in the word, and walking in Faith to properly use it, always pointing to Christ, and His Logic, and not our own.
Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig