As I understand it, a pig was slaughtered in the temple.Originally Posted by Surrender
They didn't.I thought the defilement is to be the AOD standing in the Holy Place AND the man of lawlessness who opposes himself and exalts himself above very so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God displaying himself as being God.
When did these two things happen in 70 AD?
Good reading on this thread!
Enjoyed each posters contribution to this thread! There are different views on this thread and I am impressed on how civil each one is to each other! I believe, there are several prophecies in this chapter that has not been fulfilled. I am aware that there will be deception,deceiving,and betrayal during the endtimes. Is there any thoughts of how the Devil will use these to his advantage in the end? I agree with the poster who said that this is an interesting thread! I am looking forward to some more good read and will be learning from you all! May the Lord bless us as we study this chapter from God's word!!
Thank you again for your reply. I thought the pig thing was during the time of Antiochus Epiphenes (sp?), so I looked it up and found this...
"In this prophecy, Jesus said, Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet...then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... (Matt. 24:15-16). In calling this the abomination of desolation, Jesus was referring back to an event in 175 B.C., when Antiochus Epiphanes, a Greek conqueror, defiled the temple by slaughtering a pig on the altar (Daniel 11:31), then slaughtered many of the Jews in Jerusalem. When Jesus gave this prophecy, He was telling His listeners that such an event would happen again, as part of the last days. Paul goes on to describe this defiler as one who declares himself to be God, or in the place of God, in 2 Thess. 2:4.
Although the Romans destroyed the temple in A.D. 70 and there was a great slaughter, and many Jews did, in fact, flee to the mountains as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24, there was no such pronouncement of godship and no such defilement of the temple. While the temple was torn down, this event did not fulfill Jesus' prophecy to the letter. It was fulfilling a different prophecy: Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone [of the temple] shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down (Matt. 24:2). In Matt. 24:15-21, in describing the abomination of desolation and the Great Tribulation, Jesus was clearly referring to a very specific future event that was not fulfilled in A.D. 70."
http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/preterist.htm
x
Interesting, I guess I had my wires crossed. At any rate, 70AD cannot qualify for what Jesus describes in Matthew 24. The interpretation simply falls apart.
So, I think we stopped here:
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Of course this can also be said to have happened before 70AD....until we read the rest of the context....
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
So these are clearly 70th week events, and Jesus is up to the end of the first 3 and 1/2 years here, as is confirmed by Paul, who obviously took the following directly from Jesus teaching:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
See Mat 24:4, 10 & 15 for the "be not decieved", the "falling away", and the revelation of anti-christ, all in the same order.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Apparently this information, which was given orally, has aspects to it that we do not have in this letter. But thats another study.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
So it is clear this passage in Matthew is about the 70th week, and was passed on, most likely orally, to all the Apostles, in much the same form as we have it today. It is an account, iin order, of the events of the coming 70th week, and here, we are up to the mid point.
I have to agree with that.
Jr. Member
Except this time around it was humans that were slaughtered in the temple.
The Zealots defiled the temple with all kinds of murders which included the priests (Wars 5.1.2-3).
The Idumeans slaughtered 8500 people in the outer temple.
They even killed Zecharias, the Son of Baruch in the temple (Wars 4.5.4) They continued to defile the temple by using the sacred sacraments of the temple for themselves (Wars 5.13.6).And now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five hundred dead bodies there. (Wars 4.5.1)
These abominations by the Zealots prompted the high priest Phanni to sayEven the Roman soldiers committed an abominable act within the temple grounds."Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains...
And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings lying round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple* (1) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus Imperator (2), with the greatest acclamations of joy (Wars 6.6.1).
Last edited by jikoklol; October 30th, 2007 at 11:43 AM.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Well, if LaMontre is correct in that the catching up is right about the time the AC goes into the temple to claim he is God, maybe the AC will take full responsibility for the catching up. (Not sure if that is what you are saying LaMontre but it sounds like it could be).
But LaMontre, I am confused about one point. The gospel of the kingdom is preached and then the end shall come (end being 3 1/2 yr. point, right?). Would you say the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace are somewhat different from one another in presentation?
I'm Third
What a great thread.
Can I add some thoughts?
First, I will state that I believe Mat.24 is all about yet future events.
Jesus is speaking to Jews, and He is speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I popped back to the previous chap. to get the lead in to Mat.24, and I read how He is speaking to the multitude and His disciples. He really lays it to the religious leaders of that time, giving them some "woes" and really telling it like it is. I take it many would have been offended.
Jesus says that He is going to send some to preach to the Jews and these "leaders" will:
"and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:"
The Jewish leaders were suppose to have their people ready for the Messiah, and this Chap.23 tells us that they didn't and that Jesus holds the leaders accountable, and also the people that blindly followed them.
In the last couple verse He says a couple things that are interesting and set the scene for Chap.24.
First there is
Mat 23:38, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
This is the end of God's dealing with the Jews till He is done with building His Church. You can see that although there is a group that He just got done condemning, the group that will crucify, scourge, and persecute, from city to city, by His Grace He will call out one man called Saul to reveal a mystery. Paul will bring the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.
Be it noted that Paul, by his own admission, was the chief persecutor of the Jewish followers of Christ.
Once the times of the Gentiles are full, God will once again shift His attention back to His people, the Jew.
This is what we see in the next Chap.24.
This is where it picks up again God starts to deal with His people again.
There is a whole chunk of time (dispensation?) where the Jew is set aside and God deals with all the other nations.
This is the white space between v38 and v39 in Mat.23.
The last verse on Chap.23 is pointing to the end of the Trib, where God's Elect, those Jews that escape all that Jesus lays out in the next Chap.24 will call on the Name of God for Salvation and and when they see Jesus coming, the will in fact say: "Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
If you want to see an account of what takes place in 70ad, read Luke's account in Luke 21,12-24
I believe Graceforme brought this out early in this thread but no one picked up on it.
Luke gives a very similiarly worded account, sounds just like Mat.24, except there is a very subtle difference as to the audience, and the timing.
Luke's account is clearly speaking of Jewish believers (Christians) that escape the destruction of the temple and the fulfillment of the prophesy that Jesus gave in Mat.23.
Just my thoughts.
Carry on.
With Love
In Christ
-Michael
"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Rev. 4:11
Jr. Member
Ooops. Duplicate post see below
Last edited by jikoklol; October 30th, 2007 at 01:31 PM.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Jr. Member
I think that you could make a good arguement that after the transition in verses 32 through 36, Jesus looks to the distant Second Coming.
I don't think that it becomes speculative, interpretive, and extremely symbolic at all; rather quite the opposite. I think that I have shown that taken literally the historical events leading up to A.D. 70 fit well with the Olivet Discourse.
I noticed that you haven't addressed my points in posts 21 and 25
Last edited by jikoklol; October 30th, 2007 at 01:56 PM.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Jr. Member
The Greek word used in Matthew 24:34 is genea, a word that in other contexts means generation. Each and every time this generation is used in his gospel, it refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking (Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17). The use of the near demonstrative this locks the time of this generation that was near to Jesus. If Jesus had a future generation in mind, He would have said that generation, as in, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Another clue is in verse 14. In verse 14 the Greek word that is translated as world is oikoumene and not kosmos and it means inhabited earth. The same word is used in Luke 2:1 and Acts 11:28. Literally translated it means the Roman world or empire. Therefore, Jesus was saying that the gospel would be preached throughout the Roman Empire as a witness and then the end would come.
The other clue is Jesus' use of the second person plural "you". As was pointed out in an earlier post by LaMontre Jesus tells His disciples:
....Take heed that no man deceive you....
....And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that you be not troubled:....
....Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake....
We know who the "you" is because verse 1 and 3 tells us who the "you" is.
Then Jesus tells them that "Watch out that no one deceives you...You will hear of wars and rumors of wars...Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me...
If Jesus had a future generation and audience in mind , He would have said that generation" instead of "this generation and "they" or "them" instead of "you". There is no way that "you", based on the construct of the Olivet Discourse, means "you + 2000 years". It has to be the disciples and their generation.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Jr. Member
If the "you" in verse 9 is the disciples then who is the "you" of verses 15, 20, 25, 26? There is no indication that Matthew 24:9 and following refers to any other audience than the one to whom Jesus is speaking. Jesus is not laying down universal principles of behavior in the Olivet Discourse; He is outlining when certain events are going to take place and to whom.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Jr. Member
I also had one more thought regarding the AOD. Luke in his parallel version of the Olivet Discourse defines the AOD as Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. Compare his take with that of Matthew's
Instead of the obsure "abomination of desolation" passage that Matthew's uses in his Jewish account, Luke uses language that a Gentile audience would be more familiar with."When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. Luke 21:20-21
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Matthew 24:15-16
The Jews considered the Romans and their ensigns idolatrous. For example they wouldnt allow the Roman general Vitellius to march through Judea with the ensigns on the ground that the idolatrous images on their ensigns would be a profaning of the law (Antiq 18.5.3).
When Pilate was sent to Judea as its procurator he brought with him ensigns and was going to have them placed in the Temple. When the Jews realized this, they petitioned Pilate saying:
The Roman ensign was capped with a metallic eagle, and right under the eagle was a graven image of Caesar. These ensigns were worshipped by the Roman Legions. Needless to say these ensigns were idols to the Roman soldiers.'Kill us, if you will, but take that abomination of desolation out of our Holy City and from the neighborhood of our holy temple.' Pilate had anticipated that this would cause an uproar among the Jewish population and had secretly sent some of his soldiers, dressed in plain clothes to conceal their identity, amongst the crowd with an order to kill them at his signal should they become unruly. But because they were willing to die for what the believed Pilate removed the ensigns from the temple area. (Antiq 18.3.1)
The presence of the Romans in military attire would then be an abomination; and their surround Jerusalem in a time of war would have been an abomination that would lead to desolation
Last edited by jikoklol; October 30th, 2007 at 01:05 PM.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Not at all. I haven't addressed the rapture in any respect, and the end is not the mid point of the 70th week (obviously).
The dual gospel theory is really a theory based on silence. There is really no difference in the end result of any gospel (however labeled) in the NT. All are based upon belief in Jesus, which results in entry into the Church.
In my opinion, Jesus is speaking to fledgling (better stated "embryonic") church here in Mat 24, which is a Jewish congregation. The church was born Jewish.
Last edited by LaMontre; October 30th, 2007 at 02:55 PM.
Except that Lukes account is not "parallel"....but rather a completely different account, to a completely different audience that was mixed with disciples, and unbelievers, and in a completely different place.
Luk 21:37 And in the daytime he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
Luk 21:38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
Luk 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
Luk 20:2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
As you can see, they are totally different.
But in this case you are correct, Jesus does indeed address 70AD in the Luke account, because that is what he was asked about. Whereas in the Olivette discourse, to his disciples, to whom he taught plainly, and who understood that he was going to have a "second coming", he gave a much more detailed account of the 70th week. It is not until vs. 25 of the Temple discourse that he even begins to cover the events of the 70th week, and that only briefly.
There is a reason for this:
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you (the disciples) it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Anytime Jesus taught kingdom principles, he taught in parables, unless he was speaking privately to his disciples, as he was in Mat 24.
So we know that this is a warning about 70AD:
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not a hair of your head perish.
Why not?
Because whoever would heed his words would escape the seige, as I am sure you can confirm, jikoklol.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The desolation of Jerusalem, not the temple.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Who would fall by the sword?? He just said not a hair of your head would perrish. Obviously it is unbelievers who would die. Only believers, (Christians, the Church) would wisely heed the words of Jesus, and live through the 70AD onslaught.
Only then does he move on to more distant future events, and briefly warns about His second coming.
Last edited by LaMontre; October 30th, 2007 at 02:36 PM.
Agreed.
And I appreciate your knowledge and sharing those histories with us. It is very interesting reading. I just don't personally believe it applies to Matthew 24.I don't think that it becomes speculative, interpretive, and extremely symbolic at all; rather quite the opposite. I think that I have shown that taken literally the historical events leading up to A.D. 70 fit well with the Olivet Discourse.
Actually I didn't address them because, to the point of them, I do not necessarily disagree. I simply draw different conclusions from those facts. And I believe I have made those conclusions pretty plain without necessarily addressing them directly.I noticed that you haven't addressed my points in posts 21 and 25
Jr. Member
As I stated in two previous posts, Matthew uses the Greek word oikoumene that means inhabited earth. The same word is used in Luke 2:1 and Acts 11:28. Literally translated it would mean the Roman world or empire. Therefore, Jesus was saying that the gospel would be preached throughout the Roman World as a witness and then the end would come. The fact that the gospel was preached throughout the world in the timeframe after the Olivet Discourse is backed up in scripture.
In Acts 17 when Paul and Silas are in Thessalonica visiting Jason, the Jews rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd. When they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city officials, shouting:
Paul in his letter to the Christians in Colosse says that the gospel was bearing fruit all over the world (Colossians 1: 6). In verse 23 of the same chapter, Paul encourages the Colossians toThese men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here, and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus. (Acts 17:5-7)
In Pauls letter to the Christians in Rome he informs the church there that their faith is being reported all over the world (Romans 1:8).continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant"
It seems to me that by Pauls day the gospel, just as Jesus said it would, was preached throughout the oikoumene is confirmed and backed up by Pauls own words.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
Jr. Member
I would repectfully disagree. They are in fact parallel passages. That's why I put Luke 21:20-21 & Matthew 24:15-16 together. The audience in Luke's account is the same audience in Matthew's account and Mark's account.
Here are other portions of Luke & Matthew that parallel each other.
The Statement of Jesus
Matthew 24:1, 2
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. Do you see all these things?" he asked. I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down
Mark 13:1, 2
As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings! Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down...
Luke 21:5, 6
Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down...
The Question
Matthew 24:3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?...
Mark 13:3, 4
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?...
Luke 21:7
Teacher, they asked, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?.
The Deceivers
Matthew 24:4, 5
Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many
Mark 13:5, 6
Jesus said to them: Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, I am he, and will deceive many
Luke 21:8
He replied: Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, I am he, and, The time is near. Do not follow themThe Persecution
Matthew 24:9, 10
Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other
Mark 13:9, 11-12
You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to themWhenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death
Luke 21:12-16
But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. This will result in your being witnesses to them. But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death
Famines and Earthquakes
Matthew 24:7
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places
Mark 13:8
There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines
Luke 21:11
There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places
Wars and Rumors of Wars
Matthew 24:7
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
Mark 13:7, 8
When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
Luke 21:9, 10
When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away. Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
Last edited by jikoklol; October 30th, 2007 at 05:43 PM.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.
Revelation 13:18
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