Left Behind Series VS Reality

[Gideon300]

Regarding Dan 11:32, the KJV says, "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits." Why does being "strong and doing exploits" equal enduring to the end?

Go back two verses to Dan 11:30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

How can they forsake the holy covenant if they were never in agreement with the holy covenant?

I asked Bryan Denlinger, a teacher/pastor who has an excellent study, imo, on dispensationalism at sermonaudio.com, and who I believe to be very wise in discernment and this was his response:

Matthew 24:24 speaks of false Christs and false prophets showing great signs and wonders, and it goes on to say; "insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Jews require a sign (1 Cor. 1:22) so they are going to have a very rough time not falling for the Antichrist's lies and deception. But, will they all make it through without losing their salvation?

Matthew 24:45-51 describes two different types of servants. The first mentioned in verses 45-47 describes a faithful servant that helps others, and is rewarded with millennial rule. The other servant loses faith in his lord's return, and turns AGAINST his fellow-servants and joins the enemy! Look what happens to him in verse 51! "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is associated with someone in Hell. (Matthew 13:41-43) But remember, they both STARTED out as servants.

Now read down through the entire chapter of Matthew 25. The WHOLE thing is about faithful servants versus unfaithful servants. It ties in perfectly with the command to endure to the end to be saved, in Matthew 24:13!

The 10 virgins of Matthew 25:1-13 are NOT Christians. The bride of Christ is called a "chaste VIRGIN" in 2 Corinthians 11:2. Jesus has ONE bride, NOT many! The foolish virgins must buy more oil. Many try to claim that the "oil" is a reference to the Holy Spirit, but this is easily disproved by Acts 8:18-20 where Peter rebukes a man for trying to buy the Holy Ghost!

The next parable (verses 14-30) given is of a man who gives talents to his servants. The first two servants do well and are faithful in their good works. The third servant is NOT faithful, and ends up being cast into "outer darkness". (Verse 30) Again, they were ALL servants of the master, but the one fell away.

Finally verses 31-46 tells of the judgment of the nations, which will be carried out by Jesus Christ PHYSICALLY here on the earth at the end of the tribulation. Notice the reason Jesus lets the "sheep" into His kingdom in verses 34-40. It is ALL about good works! These people were faithful servants and endured to the end. This is why Jesus grants them access to the millennial kingdom. (Mentioned in Matthew 24:47)

Verses 41-46 are pointed at the unfaithful servants. Notice they are judged by their works! If these "goats" were lost simply because they didn't have salvation by "grace through faith", why would the Lord Jesus waste any time on them judging their works?

Salvation in the tribulation is by faith AND works.

I've really enjoyed this discussion but we may have to just agree to disagree. I would never claim to have it all figured out and I'm always trying to learn. None of us do have everything figured out, but we'll know soon enough. Hopefully very soon.

Razberry, who are the elect? Are we (Christians) the elect?

Was Judas a Christian? Did he not APPEAR to be a servant?

You know that before the antichrist can be revealed there must be a falling away. These are not Christians that are falling away. These are people that have been given the gospel, should accept the truth, but have instead turned to what their ear wants to hear. Our population of Christians in our country has plummeted, and attendance in non-gospel, feel good, "churches" have gone through the roof. Do you know anyone that is true, born again, Bible reading, Christian that would turn away from sound doctrine to false teaching? The answer is NO. This is why Jesus and Paul told us to study and know the word so that we would not be deceived.

Those that love Jesus, and his word will read his word, and not be deceived. We know that there will be fake Christians in end days. Jesus said that when he returns people will say Lord Lord, and Jesus will say be gone, I never knew thee.

How can they forsake the holy covenant if they were never in agreement with the holy covenant?

If they are Jewish that is how.

Salvation in the tribulation is by faith AND works.

All you have done here is describe James 2:17-18:

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Anyone who is saved will do good works. In other words, if you aren't saved you wouldn't do good works, you wouldn't have any works to show. Thus, those in the tribulation that aren't doing good works aren't saved. Nothing changed there from now to the tribulation. This doesn't explain that one can lose their salvation.

Again, as Daniel states, those that know their God will resist the antichrist.

[SaintTexas]

I just want to add one thing to what Gideon is saying above as well.

It also appears in the sheep and goats judgement those who have not taken the mark, survived somehow when He sets up the Millennial Kingdom are sorted and either get to inherit the kingdom promised (see v 34, in particular). Only true believers and the saved nation of Israel will enter. It's in MATTHEW 25:31-46.

31. "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36. I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37. Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38. When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39. Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40. And the King will answer and say to them,
'Assuredly, I say to you,
inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41. Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43. I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44. Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45. Then He will answer them, saying,
'Assuredly, I say to you,
inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The goats are unsaved gentiles left on the earth at the end of the Tribulation. The sheep are saved gentiles at the end of the Tribulation who also have the works of mercy and compassion for others in their time of need to back up their faith. The goats do not actually believe in the Lord as they did not show compassionate or mercy to anyone who had needs that they could help with and only cared for themselves and their own needs and survival during this time. Mercy and compassion are huge characteristics of the Lord Himself--two fruits of the Spirit as well within the Church that a believer will produce as he matures and abides in Him---and will be badly needed during the Tribulation. Can you imagine the suffering, the fear, the overwhelming needs at this time? I am sure these folks will think that survival of the fittest applies here, when it's really laying down our lives for others that the Lord is interested in who truly trusted Him in every way and never loved their life more than Him and understood His example that we are to emulate.

[ComeLordJesus]

We have been watching the series that has a character called Helen Hannah--I cannot think of what the movie titles are at the moment--and I feel like that is far worse in making light of many things and also doesn't take into account things like:

How do they have electricity if they are outlawed without the mark?
How does ONE not find them when they log onto the computer?

Common sense things. And the world looks just the same in them as well.

God's Word is the best place to get our information and to ask questions and get sound answers, but I am not sorry that I read them because of the result in my walk with the Lord, which was to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him as my Savior.

That movie was Apocalypse. i just watched it for the first time this week, along with a few others in the genre. What got me was that all the clothing of the Raptured was neatly folded where they were left. I guess it could happen but it was a bit puzzling and distracting.

Apocalypse: Caught in the Eye of the Storm
(1998) PG
Bronson (Richard Nester) and Helen (Leigh Lewis) are journalists reporting on the beginning of a war in the Middle East. But right in front of their eyes, something unexpected happens: Millions of people disappear without a trace. When a new and enigmatic leader appears at the head of the European Union, performing miracles and claiming to be God, the couple find themselves wrapped in a mystery of biblical proportions.

Netflix.com

[Gideon300]

Those who are sealed are the elect, imo. Yes, we Christians are the elect now because we are sealed. There will be no one sealed during the trib except the 144,000.

In the Old Testament the Elect referred to the nation of Israel. That is the exact point of the tribulation, The Time of Jacob's Trouble. Christians are grafted into the tree, so now we are also part of the elect, but specifically this is speaking of Israel (Jews+Christians), those that know God.

Judas was a disciple of Christ. He served a purpose that Jesus already knew about, which furthered His ultimate reason for coming here, and his betrayal came as no surprise to Jesus. He, Judas, has nothing to do with the parables Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 24 and 25.

Judas was chosen as a disciple for a purpose, which he fulfilled. Did he not appear to be a Christian? My point here is that he appeared to be a Christian, and knew the way, yet he chose Satan. Was he not an unfaithful servant of Christ?

I agree. IMO, the falling away is speaking of the Laodicean church, which we can see happening now. It simply means, imo, that the people, as a whole, have become totally corrupt and refuse to repent, as in the days of Noah and Lot. People have turned their hearts against what they’ve been taught by their fathers, making them aspostate. It’s kinda the absolute opposite of revival.

Exactly. Was the church of Laodicean Christian? This is exactly my point.

Again, I agree. But we are not speaking of the Church Age.

It doesn't matter; Old Testament, Church Age, Tribulation. Show me exact scripture, which I have asked for, that shows you can lose your salvation once your heart has been circumcised. To teach this is not supported by scripture. If a person does not have faith, they never had faith.

Exactly. This chapter is speaking about Jews who are being overrun, specifically the army/soldiers. So, if being Jewish is applied to Daniel 11:30, as only Jews could forsake the covenant, then I assume you’re saying that only Jews will be able to “resist” in verse 32. They are the same people.

True, but Christians have been grafted in. Do we not know God? If we are not God's people, then, we are not the elect as you have already stated we are. it can't work both ways...

Being Gentile does not mean that you are automatically chosen by Jesus. Jews on the other hand, are God's chosen people. They are supposed to have a covenant with Him, but many choose not to have faith, they break that covenant.

Yes. James is speaking about tribulation saints, not the Church. He is speaking to Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. James 1:1 When does this group show up again? During the tribulation.

Huh???? The twelve tribes are spread across the nations during the tribulation??:

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.

Sorry, I don't think so.

Really? I know plenty of unsaved people who do good works. As Christians, of course we’ll do good works because Jesus said, “If you love me, you will obey me.“ All of OUR works are as filthy rags without Christ. The ONLY thing that saves Christians is grace thru faith in Jesus. Different rules for trib saints though. (I don’t refer to them as Christians but rather Trib Saints. We, believers during the church age, are called Christians.)

I fail to understand what you are talking about here. How did works of non-believers end up in our discussion...?? I was simply stating that those that have faith in Christ will produce good works because we know his word.

I am a dispensational believer. I think those who aren’t cannot possibly rightly divide the word of God and end up making a mess of scripture.

So...you are accusing me of dividing the word of God? Really...??

I think it was Martin Luther who said he’d like to burn the book of James. (I heard Bryan Denlinger mention this in a teaching.) This is because he, Luther, was not a dispensational believer and he couldn’t make it fit with eternal security.

I have just reread through James and cannot find any reference to the tribulation, Time of Jacob's Trouble, antichrist, etc. Please show me the scripture that states this is for tribulation saints, or has to do with the tribulation.

The KJV says they are strong and will do exploits. These verses are speaking about soldiers. Soldiers ARE strong and do great deeds, but some will abandon their beliefs and join the AC’s side, imo.

You keep on using imo. Your opinion isn't scripture.

[SaintTexas]

That movie was Apocalypse. i just watched it for the first time this week, along with a few others in the genre. What got me was that all the clothing of the Raptured was neatly folded where they were left. I guess it could happen but it was a bit puzzling and distracting.

Netflix.com

I would vote for "Gone". Saw it last night when we got home from church.....my family was like, "Mom, seriously, this was not a good rapture movie at all!"

Umm, sorry I had not seen it before this either. Sooorrry. LOL

[Gideon300]

Razberry,

This is the last time I request this. Please provide scripture that states once saved always saved does not apply during the tribulation. Please provide a scripture that states because this is a different dispensation then, once saved always saved does not count. You have yet to give scripture, and quite frankly you won't provide any because this is a doctrine that is not supported by scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we are saved, dispensation does not matter, we are a new creation are we not? We are born again, are we not? Titus 3:5
But according to you, tribulation saints can go from a new creation back to the old creation...??? No scriptural evidence for this.

God has glorified the believer, He has justified him in His sight, so you are saying man can undo what God has done? Romans 8:30

Nothing can separate us from God once He lives in us:

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

On the book of James.... Are you telling me the 12 tribes are not represented in Israel today? That's garbage. Jews are still dispersed, and will be until Jesus returns, but more and more Jews have moved, and are moving back to Israel before the Tribulation. The teachings in the Book of James are universal, and to say they were meant for the tribulation saints only holds no water.

[ComeLordJesus]

I would vote for "Gone". Saw it last night when we got home from church.....my family was like, "Mom, seriously, this was not a good rapture movie at all!"

Umm, sorry I had not seen it before this either. Sooorrry. LOL

Hey, Apocalypse wasn't bad after it got past the folded clothes!

I'm gonna look up Gone on Netflix now, .

[Anddra]

Razberry,

This is the last time I request this. Please provide scripture that states once saved always saved does not apply during the tribulation. Please provide a scripture that states because this is a different dispensation then, once saved always saved does not count. You have yet to give scripture, and quite frankly you won't provide any because this is a doctrine that is not supported by scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we are saved, dispensation does not matter, we are a new creation are we not? We are born again, are we not? Titus 3:5
But according to you, tribulation saints can go from a new creation back to the old creation...??? No scriptural evidence for this.

God has glorified the believer, He has justified him in His sight, so you are saying man can undo what God has done? Romans 8:30

Nothing can separate us from God once He lives in us:

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

On the book of James.... Are you telling me the 12 tribes are not represented in Israel today? That's garbage. Jews are still dispersed, and will be until Jesus returns, but more and more Jews have moved, and are moving back to Israel before the Tribulation. The teachings in the Book of James are universal, and to say they were meant for the tribulation saints only holds no water.

The Holy Spirit In Tribulation Times

If Satan is restrained by the Holy Spirit, and that the only way he can completely have dominion over the earth is for that restraint to go, then are the believers after the Rapture not sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Q. ... If Satan is restrained by the Holy Spirit, and that the only way he can completely have dominion over the earth is for that restraint to go, then are the believers after the Rapture not sealed with the Holy Spirit? It seems odd that the post-rapture believers, whose number will be more than any in the history of man, will not have the same or greater affect than the current believers who must be Raptured for Satan to come into the world. Is there any scripture supporting or denying anything about this or do we just not know?

...

A. This demonstrates the very special relationship that the Church has with God. Old Testament believers weren’t sealed with the Holy Spirit and neither are Tribulation believers. Only the Church enjoys the promise of security represented by the Holy Spirit’s presence within us. This is not to say that the Holy Spirit wasn’t busy in the Old Testament, nor does it imply that He won’t be around after the Church leaves. For as you say, it’s likely that His greatest work will be done after the Church Age ends.

The reason for the change is that only the Church is asked to believe solely by faith (John 20:29). Both in the Old Testament and in Daniel’s 70th week the evidence for God’s existence is all too obvious with all His mighty works of judgment. It simply won’t require as much reliance on faith to believe as it does during the Church Age. For this reason we’ve been given gifts and rewards that exceed both other groups, and one of those is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As for Scriptural support, it’s mostly done from a position of silence. After consistent and frequent mention of the Holy Spirit in most of the New Testament, there’s no such prevalence in the Book of Revelation. There the focus is on God, as it was in the Old Testament. [My bold]

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...ulation-times/

[SaintTexas]

Hey, Apocalypse wasn't bad after it got past the folded clothes!

I'm gonna look up Gone on Netflix now, .

Oh now, I posted that so that no one would ever go look it up. My family was really unhappy with me.

No coming back if you watch it to say anything other than, "Yes, that was not good and the ending was......." Well, we all looked at each other and said, "What?! That's the end???"

The credits rolled and we were both thankful that it was over and confused that it was over.

______

As far as the OSAS thing, there is more than once place in Revelation where John writes about the saints needing to persevere or for their patience while they are going through unbelieveable trials and may or do lose their lives.....one who is truly saved will be patient, persevere and give up their life if it comes to that. The have faith AND they have the work of faithfulness unto death to their testimony of Christ. One who is not truly saved in the Tribulation would take the mark, walk away from the Lord, etc.

[ComeLordJesus]

Oh now, I posted that so that no one would ever go look it up. My family was really unhappy with me.

No coming back if you watch it to say anything other than, "Yes, that was not good and the ending was......." Well, we all looked at each other and said, "What?! That's the end???"

The credits rolled and we were both thankful that it was over and confused that it was over.

______

As far as the OSAS thing, there is more than once place in Revelation where John writes about the saints needing to persevere or for their patience while they are going through unbelieveable trials and may or do lose their lives.....one who is truly saved will be patient, persevere and give up their life if it comes to that. The have faith AND they have the work of faithfulness unto death to their testimony of Christ. One who is not truly saved in the Tribulation would take the mark, walk away from the Lord, etc.

Netflix doesn't cost me anything extra to stream a movie to my computer, so no worries if the movie is horrible!

[Gideon300]

______

As far as the OSAS thing, there is more than once place in Revelation where John writes about the saints needing to persevere or for their patience while they are going through unbelieveable trials and may or do lose their lives.....one who is truly saved will be patient, persevere and give up their life if it comes to that. The have faith AND they have the work of faithfulness unto death to their testimony of Christ. One who is not truly saved in the Tribulation would take the mark, walk away from the Lord, etc.

Exactly.

I cannot even begin to wrap my head around someone who accepts Jesus, knows the word, and then loses his/her faith, and is forever separated from God. Top it off with this happening during the worst time in history that so much has been prophesied on in the Bible.

[SaintTexas]

Netflix doesn't cost me anything extra to stream a movie to my computer, so no worries if the movie is horrible!

I was trying to be considerate of your time. LOL We have Netflix as well.....you know, it was a disc we got in the mail now that I am thinking about it. Sorry, we do not have cable anymore, so the Instant Que runs on our TV, etc. You have to order that one.

[SaintTexas]

Exactly.

I cannot even begin to wrap my head around someone who accepts Jesus, knows the word, and then loses his/her faith, and is forever separated from God. Top it off with this happening during the worst time in history that so much has been prophesied on in the Bible.

We are in Revelation at our church on Sundays and we just finished 15. I commented this in a different thread. God is so ridiculously gracious, He has a heart that overflows with mercy and compassion, not only has He given His written Word to let anyone who read it know what's coming, raptured the Church, sent out 144,000 Messianic evangelists worldwide to preach the Gospel, sent the 2 witnesses with great supernatural authority and everyone will see them for 3 1/2 years and then watch them rise from the dead after 3 days and ascend to Heaven, the Lord is going to send an angel flying through mid-Heaven as well to proclaim the everlasting Gospel. I mean, who is going to say yes to the MOB and no to an angel flying in mid-Heaven proclaiming the everlasting Gospel?

The only ones who will take the MOB, just as 2 Thessalonians 2 describes as loving their sin would do that.

I cannot even begin to imagine the above. This seems like a time to me, during the last half of the Trib in particular that things are going to be very black and white. Either you love the truth or you do not, because there will be plenty of things going on, supernatural from the Lord and delusions from Satan.

[Everlasting Peace]

Exactly.

I cannot even begin to wrap my head around someone who accepts Jesus, knows the word, and then loses his/her faith, and is forever separated from God. Top it off with this happening during the worst time in history that so much has been prophesied on in the Bible.

I know what you mean. It's hard to imagine that people will continue to put God, their faith, and salvation on the back burner despite everything that's happening around them, but unfortunately, they will. I think The Parable of the Ten Virgins speaks to this and that there is no "OSAS" after the rapture.

Matthew 25:1-13

[Rev1:17]

A lot of people on this forum I have read have come to know Jesus after reading the Left Behind Series. I haven't read all of the books, I left off on book 10, but I didn't find the description of the Tribulation to be romanticized at all...

Also, Chang, as you said was forced to take the mark. In the story, if I'm not mistaken, he was drugged & knocked out, then given the mark. He didn't accept the mark on his own accord. Those that follow the beast will willingly accept the mark, and worship the AC. It is a choice they make to choose Satan over Jesus Christ, and they will make it willingly and gladly. Chang is saved in the storyline, so what you are saying is his salvation has been lost, but those that are truly saved cannot lose their salvation. Revelation does not elaborate on Christians that are knocked out, and given the mark while they are unconscious, but never wanted it, and never worship the beast. This was just a plot device for the story, and you very well might be correct, but I just couldn't imagine a Christian losing their salvation due to the mark being put on them unwillingly while they were knocked out.

The mark, IMO, will be a tool of the antichrist to further seperate those who are Saved Christians. It would be a lot easier to track someone down that you are hunting if you single them out like that.

The system may possibly be initially:
Mark the willing before it is required to be marked.

Mark the ones that take the mark when it is required to recieve it.

Single out the ones who resist. Try to "convert them" into believing the mark is the best thing for them. (which brings up the point of "If a person gets saved before the mark is required, then takes the mark, he loses his salvation)

If they still resist, they shall become Martyrs for their faith. A noble name for the current times.

Could it be different than this? Sure. But it is not any further fetched than listening to a movie and believing in what it says. Remember, THE DEVIL controls the air. including the waves that travel through it. I get a kick out of the Verizon slogan "RULE THE AIR", Its almost like a catch phrase for the elite of this world.


Ruler of this world: Jn 12:31; 14:31; 16:11
Prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2
The god of this world: 2 Cor 4:4
He promises the world to those who will obey him: Mt 4:8-9
His domain is a sinful world under evil power: 1 Jn 5:19
God is more powerful than Satan: 1 Jn 4:4 "greater is He..."
Satan rules the world through deception and sin, not legitimately by God: Rev 12:9

[metroames]

I've thought a lot about this lately. Just what is He restraining? Is it evil alone or is there something more. In Genesis, at the creation, He moved upon the face of the waters. I wonder if He was keeping the waters calm? Could it be that He is not only responsible for restraining the pure evil in our nature but also for restraining nature itself? Does He keep the volcanoes, the earthquakes, the tsunami's and the hurricanes in check as well? Is that fact that both evil and damage from nature on the increase, because He is already beginning to pull away and restrain less? Comments anyone?

Haven't read all the posts yet, but I wanted to comment that the Holy Spirit restraining more than just evil isn't something I've thought about, but it makes sense.

[Christina]

As far as the OSAS thing, there is more than once place in Revelation where John writes about the saints needing to persevere or for their patience while they are going through unbelieveable trials and may or do lose their lives.....one who is truly saved will be patient, persevere and give up their life if it comes to that. The have faith AND they have the work of faithfulness unto death to their testimony of Christ. One who is not truly saved in the Tribulation would take the mark, walk away from the Lord, etc.

Exactly.

[makeupgirl]

I think that's why the Left Behind series is fiction. This is the author's opinion of what he thinks would happen, even though he probably knows the real deal.

The truth is the rapture occurs before the tribulation and that is right. What else matters?

[Rev1:17]

I read a lot of "I believe this will happen" and "I believe that will happen", when the fact of the matter is not one of us in this thread knows what will happen for sure.

None of us. Not you, me or LaHaye.

I think the Left Behind series was great. For those that pick it apart as believing they know any more than the authors do as to what exactly will happen is a bit sad because those books led a lot of people to further their search fro Christ and that should be applauded.....not criticized.

you are exactly right! that brings me to wonder why there is such a big argument over salvation after the rapture. do I criticize people for not agreeing with me? sometimes....but I try not to. To say otherwise would make me very hypocritical. The truth of the matter is there will be saved Christians after the tribulation. They will suffer persecution that many Christians today would tremble over. We are fortunate. I thank God for everything he has done in my life. I hope the tribulation Christians will have the willpower to resist the mark. I pray that if they take that mark that you will have mercy on their souls, even though that would be against your will because as it is written,

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

I'm just reading what it says. Knowing Christians will be around then makes me realize the will eventually have to make a choice of taking the mark, and not taking the mark. It seems to ME that if they take that mark, there is a dire consequence to it. But, yes, I could be reading it entirely wrong.

Bottom line is, I also read the KJV Bible, there is also debate over that. I also believe in the pre=trib rapture, there is debate over that. I also believe Christ will come very soon, there is debate over that. I believe in Jesus Christ, and there is debate over that. Debating is overrated and a complete waste of time.

[Kliska]

Debating is overrated and a complete waste of time.

I would point out to the thread in general, that discussion, when done with respect and citing things like scripture, is one of the reasons that the board is here. We have a community of people here that likes to share and talk about things and when it is done out of respect and love it adds to understanding of biblical matters. Formal argumentation, which is debating, doesn't have to be negative nor aggressive in nature, but rather is a way for people to share premises (evidence and reasons) for their beliefs...plus it makes life a lot less boring.