Questions about Hell

[Steve53]

Oh okay, I saw being 'judged by their works' to mean that God shows them how deserving of their punishment and how bad they are/were etc...

I suppose that just like a prison one gets less for petty crimes and more for serious ones. Maybe, Hell has different levels- like Heaven????

Dante’s Divine Comedy gave popular rise to the notions of degrees and levels of heaven and hell and he was certainly influenced by Catholicism. Suffice to say, heaven will be more wonderful than we can imagine and hell more terrible than we can imagine - and both are forever.

[james46888]

I suppose that just like a prison one gets less for petty crimes and more for serious ones. Maybe, Hell has different levels- like Heaven????

Yeah, sort of, though not less in a time-sense but, rather, less in a severity sense. Using the prison analogy - and without trivialising it - I guess we'd compare it to someone who had to spend his sentence in the Gulag vs a small time crook in, say, the UK who gets a TV in his cell, is allowed to play pool, use the gym, etc. Again not meaning to trivalise hell with that analogy or make it seem that someone will be having an OK sort of time, but that's all I could think of off the top of my head.

As for heaven having levels of reward, believers do get rewarded differently in the millennial kingdom on earth but it'd seem in the eternal state all are equal.


Oh, BTW, did you see post #28 where I explained Luke 12 and offered some other verses about this issue? I was just checking because in your reply you cited Rev 20:13 which I mentioned in a different post but you didn't allude to the verses I cited in post #28 so I wasn't sure if you missed it

[Steve53]

Yeah, sort of, though not less in a time-sense but, rather, less in a severity sense.

Those raised from hell for judgment would have their works be their ticket to Heaven. The Bible is clear the ultimate destination for the place we call hell is the Lake of Fire. Every lost person will wind up there without a boat. The "degrees of punishment" idea is man made. The Bible is not explicit about such matters of degree. Picture a modern metal smelting plant and the very large cauldrons full of molten metal. Imagine being dropped into one - does it really matter if you're dropped into the middle or next to the edge? Or picture the very thing the Bible describes - a fiery lake full of brimstone (sulfur) - a volcano's roiling and bubbling lava pit is great analogy of that very thing - does it really matter where one swims in such a place?


Levels In Hell?

Q.....I heard one Bible teacher say, “if you believe there are levels in Heaven, you have to consider that there are levels in Hell.” My question is, do you believe in this rationale?
A. I don’t accept the rationale that Hell has to be a reverse image of heaven beyond the basic distinction that believers go to Heaven and unbelievers go to Hell. The Bible supports the idea that beyond salvation, which every believer receives, there are additional rewards available to those who qualify. The Lord also encouraged us to store up treasure in Heaven (Matt. 6:19-21), and our knowledge of human nature tells us some will store up more than others.
But the only similar statement for unbelievers is that they’ll be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:12-13). The only works God requires is belief in the Son (John 6:28-29). Even if He does consider other works of unbelievers, would He not make His judgment on the basis of their motives like He does with believers? What is the motive behind the good works of an unbeliever? It’s certainly not pleasing God or expressing gratitude to Him. Even for believers, good works done with impure motives will be burned up in the fire (1 Cor. 3:11-15). Would it not be the same for unbelievers? To me the whole idea of levels in Hell is an attempt to make the ways of God compatible with human ideals. http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...evels-in-hell/

[Verisimilitude]

Levels of punishment, yes. Actual levels in hell, doubt it.

I just began an home study course about Dante's Divine Comedy. Haven't gotten too far in it yet but I found this much out...Dante, who lived in Florence, had temporarily left to go travel elsewhere, I think Rome. Before he could return back to his beloved Florence, through political maneuverings and war, a group called Black Guelphs, which Dante did not belong to, came into power and Dante ended up being sent into eternal exile. A very hard thing for a man who loved Florence so much and who for a short time had been one of it's political leaders. He felt betrayed as he did not believe he was guilty of the charges that put him into eternal exile.

At the bottom of hell, Dante places Brutus and Judas. Two people well known to all of us as traitors. No doubt if Dante lived today, he'd have Benedict Arnold in the lowest part of hell as well. It's no coincidence to me that he has those who commit betrayal as those suffering in the lowest parts of hell, as he himself thought himself betrayed. It's from his feeling of being betrayed that the idea of different levels of hell came into existence.

For what it's worth, the Divine Comedy is not just about hell, it actually has 3 parts. He not only visits hell, but he also visits heaven and purgatory as well. From what I understand, he also gives different levels. If one is willing to accept that hell has different levels because of Dante, will that one also accept the existence of purgatory and levels of purgatory as well? The answer is no as purgatory and levels in hell are not Biblical

Gotta go. My kitty just crawled into my lap. He needs some luvin'.

[james46888]

Little confused by your comments there, Steve. I'll break up your response into smaller chunks and reply where appropriate....

Picture a modern metal smelting plant and the very large cauldrons full of molten metal. Imagine being dropped into one - does it really matter if you're dropped into the middle or next to the edge? Or picture the very thing the Bible describes - a fiery lake full of brimstone (sulfur) - a volcano's roiling and bubbling lava pit is great analogy of that very thing - does it really matter where one swims in such a place?

Agree that it won't make a huge difference since none in gehenna will be having a good time, though again I still say, for example, Hitler suffers more than, say, someone who rejects Jesus but goes around helping the poor, not murdering, stealing, hating, etc. Not a huge difference but, IMO, a difference nevertheless.

The Bible is clear the ultimate destination for the place we call hell is the Lake of Fire. Every lost person will wind up there without a boat

Agree.

The "degrees of punishment" idea is man made. The Bible is not explicit about such matters of degree.

Every commentary I have ever read on passages like Luke 12:47-48 or Luke 10:14 have noted it teaches degrees of punishment for unbelievers in gehenna, except for commentaries written by JW's which generally leave those passages well alone since it destroys their view of unconsciousness being the "punishment" awaiting unbelievers. Of course all those commentators could be wrong but I was a little surprised anyone disagreed with this concept since I thought it was accepted fact

[Steve53]

Levels of punishment, yes.

I can find no clear Biblical evidence for a such a position. Eternal damnation is no place to be and if equating a couple of ticks on the thermostat means different levels and one suffers less than another, then I see no difference or real distinction between the two. The Bible is clear that the lake of fire awaits all the lost. There is no shade for there is no light, there are no cool breezes offering respite from the heat, there is eternal separation from God and their worm dieth not. I might - might - be inclined to believe that some "worms of guilt and conviction" are more active than others, but what comfort is that to the "less" damned while they roast in the lake forever?

To even entertain the possibility of custom tailored eternal sentences denies the doctrine of the penalty for sin being death. After all, one could argue all Adam and Eve did was eat a piece of fruit and how bad could that have really been?

[IMSAVED]

http://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html

What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?



Question: "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?"

Answer: The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.

The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is also used in the New Testament for hell and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place where the souls of unbelievers are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment at the Great White Throne judgment. The souls of the righteous go directly into the presence of God— heaven/paradise/Abraham’s bosom—at death (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.

[Steve53]

Agree that it won't make a huge difference since none in gehenna will be having a good time, though again I still say, for example, Hitler suffers more than, say, someone who rejects Jesus but goes around helping the poor, not murdering, stealing, hating, etc. Not a huge difference but, IMO, a difference nevertheless.

Every commentary I have ever read on passages like Luke 12:47-48 or Luke 10:14 have noted it teaches degrees of punishment for unbelievers in gehenna,.....

It's the "in gehenna" part where I see the disconnect. Hell is the way station to the Lake of Fire, Hades (hell) and death get tossed into the lake of fire (gehenna). The end of the road is the same for everyone. The parable of the good servant, bad servant, also has parallel meaning for believers specifically regarding rewards or lack of same as well as an illustration of God's understanding that not all people will have heard of Christ and will instead be judged according to what they did know of their Creator. I think the better Biblical position is one of more or less rewards (or "levels" if we must use that term) in heaven than the other way around.

[james46888]

It's the "in gehenna" part where I see the disconnect. Hell is the way station to the Lake of Fire, Hades (hell) and death get tossed into the lake of fire (gehenna). The end of the road is the same for everyone. The parable of the good servant, bad servant, also has parallel meaning for believers specifically regarding rewards or lack of same as well as an illustration of God's understanding that not all people will have heard of Christ and will instead be judged according to what they did know of their Creator. I think the better Biblical position is one of more or less rewards (or "levels" if we must use that term) in heaven than the other way around.

In Rev 20:14 it is hades not gehenna that is said to be placed in the lake of fire (which is gehenna). Hades - or sheol - as it was called in the OT - is the place the souls of unbelievers go now. At the final judgment they are resurrected and placed in Gehenna, the lake of fire. As to the parables, maybe they can have another application but In Luke 12:47-48 I think the primary one is clearly to unbelievers.

[Verisimilitude]

I can find no clear Biblical evidence for a such a position. Eternal damnation is no place to be and if equating a couple of ticks on the thermostat means different levels and one suffers less than another, then I see no difference or real distinction between the two. The Bible is clear that the lake of fire awaits all the lost. There is no shade for there is no light, there are no cool breezes offering respite from the heat, there is eternal separation from God and their worm dieth not. I might - might - be inclined to believe that some "worms of guilt and conviction" are more active than others, but what comfort is that to the "less" damned while they roast in the lake forever?

To even entertain the possibility of custom tailored eternal sentences denies the doctrine of the penalty for sin being death. After all, one could argue all Adam and Eve did was eat a piece of fruit and how bad could that have really been?

Luke 12:47-48. *And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

*But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Hi again Steve. We seem to be doing a lot of sparring today. In this case, I respectfully disagree with you totally. Jesus calls Himself our "Great and Exceeding Reward". All who accept Him will be with Him. But that's not where the rewards end, it's where they begin. We will each inherit crowns based on our works done in His Name. Some will rule over many cities, others over few. Everyone is going to have rewards tailor made just for them based on their works and all will be with Him. I see this because He is just as well as generous. The same thing in my view and according to The above passage applies to the lost.

Each person who rejects Him is going into eternal damnation, the second death. Because He is just, it makes sense that someone like Adolph Hitler, a man responsible for the murder of 18 million people of which 6 million were Jews would endure a much more severe punishment than the jaywalker who refused Christ. People go to prison. It's the same building. Some have much more severe sentences than others because of their crimes. This is just. Mankind is not more just than God Himself.

The AC and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire. They get an extra 1000 years of the second death because of the severity of their sins. All the lost are separated forever from God in the lake of fire, that's a punishment in and of itself. If Jesus said some would have few stripes and others many, I believe Him and I believe He means an even more severe punishment for some than just eternal damnation. If you and I can receive different rewards for our works enemy though we are brother and sister in Christ, wouldn't it make sense that Christ Who spoke the above passage would mete out different punishments even though both Hitler and the jaywalker are both eternally doomed?

[Steve53]

In Rev 20:14 it is hades not gehenna that is said to be placed in the lake of fire (which is gehenna). Hades - or sheol - as it was called in the OT - is the place the souls of unbelievers go now. At the final judgment they are resurrected and placed in Gehenna, the lake of fire. As to the parables, maybe they can have another application but In Luke 12:47-48 I think the primary one is clearly to unbelievers.

Your usage and definition of the word gehenna as used as a euphemism is technically correct. I'm using the terms for hell interchangeably because it's a distinction without much difference IMHO as it applies to eternal punishment having different levels or degrees. This whole conversation has gotten into degrees of punishment yet the topic is the Lake of Fire (gehenna), the end of the line, not the stops along the way. Let's look to Luke 16:23-24 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. The rich man is tormented in flame yet he has not yet been cast into the lake of fire. How can this be? Hell, as taken from the Greek in this verse, is understood to be Hades and Hades is indeed a place of torment the degrees of which may vary. But the Lake of Fire is distinctly a place all it's own and is the final punishment, where again I say, (and it is my opinion) that it matters little a few degrees Celsius here or there to the forever damned.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

The symbolism in use above is for one who knows the path of salvation but chooses against. This is in contrast to the preceding verses which clearly have believers in view.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes...

This is symbolic of one who perhaps, for example, only had a general revelation of God. Those people will indeed be judged in a different fashion than those with specific knowledge of Christ (again, for example). Will they see the kingdom of Heaven? That's a topic for another thread. (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1599...ht=heard+jesus)

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Here the symbolism illustrates the responsibilities that go with being in a position of trust and what one who willingly leads others astray may expect as well as the reaction of those so deceived in crying for justice.

Jesus calls Himself our "Great and Exceeding Reward". All who accept Him will be with Him. But that's not where the rewards end, it's where they begin. We will each inherit crowns based on our works done in His Name. Some will rule over many cities, others over few. Everyone is going to have rewards tailor made just for them based on their works and all will be with Him. I see this because He is just as well as generous.

There is plenty of Biblical support for the above position and I do not, nor have I, disagreed.

The same thing in my view and according to The above passage applies to the lost.

Here we obviously disagree and with all that's on my plate I'm running out of ways to clarify the difference and why.

Each person who rejects Him is going into eternal damnation, the second death. Because He is just, it makes sense that someone like Adolph Hitler, a man responsible for the murder of 18 million people of which 6 million were Jews would endure a much more severe punishment than the jaywalker who refused Christ. People go to prison. It's the same building. Some have much more severe sentences than others because of their crimes. This is just. Mankind is not more just than God Himself.

Question: "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html
Answer: This is an issue that bothers many people who have an incomplete understanding of three things: the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of sin. As fallen, sinful human beings, the nature of God is a difficult concept for us to grasp. We tend to see God as a kind, merciful Being whose love for us overrides and overshadows all His other attributes. Of course God is loving, kind, and merciful, but He is first and foremost a holy and righteous God. So holy is He that He cannot tolerate sin. He is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and disobedient (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God—He is love itself! But the Bible also tells us that He hates all manner of sin (Proverbs 6:16-19). And while He is merciful, there are limits to His mercy. “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon” (Isaiah 55:6-7).

Humanity is corrupted by sin, and that sin is always directly against God. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered, he responded with an interesting prayer: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). Since David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, how could he claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being (Psalm 90:2). As a result, all sin requires an eternal punishment. God’s holy, perfect, and infinite character has been offended by our sin. Although to our finite minds our sin is limited in time, to God—who is outside of time—the sin He hates goes on and on. Our sin is eternally before Him and must be eternally punished in order to satisfy His holy justice.

No one understands this better than someone in hell. A perfect example is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Both died, and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to paradise (Luke 16). Of course, the rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But, interestingly, he never says, “How did I end up here?” That question is never asked in hell. He does not say, “Did I really deserve this? Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?” He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them against his fate.

Like the rich man, every sinner in hell has a full realization that he deserves to be there. Each sinner has a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which, in hell, becomes his own tormenter. This is the experience of torture in hell—a person fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, without relief for even one moment. The guilt of sin will produce shame and everlasting self-hatred. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That is why he never protested or questioned being in hell.

The realities of eternal damnation, eternal hell, and eternal punishment are frightening and disturbing. But it is good that we might, indeed, be terrified. While this may sound grim, there is good news. God loves us (John 3:16) and wants us to be saved from hell (2 Peter 3:9). But because God is also just and righteous, He cannot allow our sin to go unpunished. Someone has to pay for it. In His great mercy and love, God provided His own payment for our sin. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross for us. Jesus’ death was an infinite death because He is the infinite God/man, paying our infinite sin debt, so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we confess our sin and place our faith in Christ, asking for God’s forgiveness based on Christ’s sacrifice, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. God loved us so much that He provided the means for our salvation, but if we reject His gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

The AC and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire. They get an extra 1000 years of the second death because of the severity of their sins.

Not necessarily so because of the severity of their sins but rather because the Lord had passed final judgment on them.

All the lost are separated forever from God in the lake of fire, that's a punishment in and of itself. If Jesus said some would have few stripes and others many, I believe Him and I believe He means an even more severe punishment for some than just eternal damnation.

"Just" eternal damnation? Again I see you struggle with a distinction of little difference. A lashing ends when the whip is laid to rest. Eternal damnation in burning sulfur is a whole 'nuther scale.

If you and I can receive different rewards for our works [even] though we are brother and sister in Christ, wouldn't it make sense that Christ Who spoke the above passage would mete out different punishments even though both Hitler and the jaywalker are both eternally doomed?

The attempt to equate rewards or the lack thereof in Heaven with degrees of eternal punishment continues to fall short of the mark. The two don't necessarily have to have parallels.

[IMSAVED]

Some people think that Hell is only the separation from Christ so they think "I can deal with that not big deal". It is much,much more.

[james46888]

Let's look to Luke 16:23-24 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. The rich man is tormented in flame yet he has not yet been cast into the lake of fire. How can this be? Hell, as taken from the Greek in this verse, is understood to be Hades and Hades is indeed a place of torment the degrees of which may vary. But the Lake of Fire is distinctly a place all it's own and is the final punishment, where again I say, (and it is my opinion) that it matters little a few degrees Celsius here or there to the forever damned.

I'm sort of losing track of what our disgreement actually is here . In regards to Luke 16 Jesus is simply agreeing with the common Jewsh view of the time which held that the soul would be punished even before the resurrection of the body and final punishment (not all Jews held this of course). In the literauture of the time fire could be associated with both gehenna and sheol, and Jesus does the same thing in Luke 16, so I can't see a problem here. You seem - and correct me if I misunderstood - to say there are degreess of punishment in hades/sheol but I couldn't tell why you believe that (though I'd agree with you), and also why you don't believe the same applies to the final punishment of gehenna/lake of fire?. As to your final comment, yes agreed it probably doesn't matter hugely since the "nicest" of sinners in the Lake of fire won't be particularly happy.

[RT-here]

To even entertain the possibility of custom tailored eternal sentences denies the doctrine of the penalty for sin being death

Uh, you mean eternal punishment, right? Are you suggesting that the unbelievers die a second death and are not punished forever?
There seems to be confusion in this thread where you and others are speaking many differnent doctrines. Could you clarify you stance? Degrees of punishment line up with certain scripture. I can give examples if you like.

[RT-here]

•Heb. 2:2-3, “For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard.”

•Mt. 11:20-22, “Then He began to reproach the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 “Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you…I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

•Luke 12:47-48, “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.”

•John 19:11, “Jesus answered [Pilate], 'You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin.' ”

•Heb. 10:29, “How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

[iSong6:3]

Uh, you mean eternal punishment, right? Are you suggesting that the unbelievers die a second death and are not punished forever?
There seems to be confusion in this thread where you and others are speaking many differnent doctrines. Could you clarify you stance? Degrees of punishment line up with certain scripture. I can give examples if you like.

RT - Welcome to RR! Please introduce yourself in Welcome New Members.

[Steve53]

I'm sort of losing track of what our disgreement actually is here . In regards to Luke 16 Jesus is simply agreeing with the common Jewsh view of the time which held that the soul would be punished even before the resurrection of the body and final punishment (not all Jews held this of course). In the literauture of the time fire could be associated with both gehenna and sheol, and Jesus does the same thing in Luke 16, so I can't see a problem here. You seem - and correct me if I misunderstood - to say there are degreess of punishment in hades/sheol but I couldn't tell why you believe that (though I'd agree with you), and also why you don't believe the same applies to the final punishment of gehenna/lake of fire?. As to your final comment, yes agreed it probably doesn't matter hugely since the "nicest" of sinners in the Lake of fire won't be particularly happy.

No worries. It's been kind of a foggy day for me here so perhaps I'm not at my best. I'll go and re-read some of my earlier posts and see if they are clear. Yes, I agree there's plenty of support for a Biblical view of torments before the final destination of the lake of fire. What I've been saying all along is that once in the lake of fire, I can see no distinction between the suffering of one person verses another. Forever is a long time in the furnace. Another reason why I hold to this view is because of the idea of the judgment of those raised from the dead in Rev. 20 - The word used for judgment in the classical sense simply means to decide. Well, to decide what? In this case to decide "according to their works" whether or not they get cast into the Lake of Fire. It's the end of the road and little subtleties like degrees of punishment aren't delineated by the phrase "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Uh, you mean eternal punishment, right?

Yes.

Are you suggesting that the unbelievers die a second death and are not punished forever?

No.

There seems to be confusion in this thread where you and others are speaking many differnent doctrines. Could you clarify you stance? Degrees of punishment line up with certain scripture. I can give examples if you like.

We've been all over that already.

[Steve53]

First, whose post did you quote, whom are you asking?

He grabbed one of mine.

[RT-here]

RT - Welcome to RR! Please introduce yourself in Welcome New Members.

Oh sure, thank you! This subject grabbed my attention as a former Pastor of mine preached a very different doctrine on hell. Thank you Steve for clarifying.

[Steve53]

Thank you Steve for clarifying.

Glad someone understands.

Just kidding really. J and K are great conversationalists and the questions they put forth are valid. It's sometimes difficult to draw out where we have different views and I didn't help very much with at least one post in particular so I did go and look over a couple of my previous posts and they weren't quite what I had envisioned when I first typed them up. I tweaked them a tad. I knew what I meant, but managed to jumble my meaning when formatting my replies. While the gist of what I was saying remained regardless of later clarifications, I usually try to be more concise and precise.

Part of how I write is affected by the fact that I can't type nearly as fast as I can think. I often reorder whole paragraphs and edit things as I go because the flood of ideas more often than not speeds light years ahead of my fingers! Sometimes, the last thing I type becomes the opening in my reply, or the middle, or something else occurs to me while grabbing a link.....Oh, look! Something shiny!

The end result after a long day (or during one ) is that I have to carefully review what I post before hitting submit. I can't tell you how many posts I've spent a great deal of time on that have never made the forum because I just didn't like the formatting or I realized what was in my head never made it to the computer screen in a manner conducive to logical discourse. The fog of having too many tabs open and too many topics swirling around can make me muddleheaded and scatterbrained at times. It's a wonder I can post at all! Oh, and then are the trolls....