Questions about Hell

[Huldah]

There are some who don't know what original sin is (first sin) so I thought that I would post what I think that it is. To me the very first sin of mankind (Original Sin) was disobedience to the will of God. God said don't eat the fruit---Adam and Eve did. I think that this led to an awareness of self(Genesis 3:11) that in turn led to the deadly "I"-- I want--I need, etc. until these things have grown into monstrous proportions of lust greed, etc., until we have become a world of self worshipers who are sometimes guilty of placing the creation above the creator.I also think that all sin is the same in the eyes of God, it shows disobedience to the will of God.(first sin and will be the last sin) I don't think that all sin will be judged the same because God knows the root cause of a persons sin. So I believe that even though all sin shows God the same thing, it will be individually judged with different degrees of punishment.
What does anyone else think?

[Steve53]

There are some who don't know ....

Welcome to the boards Huldah.

Please spend some time reading here and getting to know our members a bit. This thread is a good place to start.

[Prodigal Son]

The are certainly degress of punishment in hell, if that's what you mean by "levels." Luke 12:47-48 is pretty clear on this.

Is that pre lake of fire punishment, or after?

[HeIsEnough]

Phillip, you have a thread in Apologetics to continue your conversations.

[jjmundt]

Long-time reader, first-time poster.

In regards to the "greater punishment" and "lesser punishment" of the Lake of Fire, I've mentioned the first few verses of Romans 2 (and particularly vs. 5) in Bible study groups as possible evidence that supports it. Paul writes that those who despise God's rich goodness and forbearance are "storing up wrath" against the Day of wrath. I took that to mean it might be possible to store up more (or less) wrath, depending.

As we clearly know, all who reject Christ's offer of salvation end up in the Lake of Fire, and all suffer terribly for eternity. But I wonder if, indeed, some might suffer more terribly than others. When I mention this in groups, I'm careful to add the proviso that I might be wrong (because I'm no expert).

Am I clearly interpreting that passage incorrectly?

Regards,
Joel

P.S. I've been reading RR for more than a year now, but didn't find the forums until 6-7 months ago.

[Prodigal Son]

Long-time reader, first-time poster.

In regards to the "greater punishment" and "lesser punishment" of the Lake of Fire, I've mentioned the first few verses of Romans 2 (and particularly vs. 5) in Bible study groups as possible evidence that supports it. Paul writes that those who despise God's rich goodness and forbearance are "storing up wrath" against the Day of wrath. I took that to mean it might be possible to store up more (or less) wrath, depending.

As we clearly know, all who reject Christ's offer of salvation end up in the Lake of Fire, and all suffer terribly for eternity. But I wonder if, indeed, some might suffer more terribly than others. When I mention this in groups, I'm careful to add the proviso that I might be wrong (because I'm no expert).

Am I clearly interpreting that passage incorrectly?

Regards,
Joel

P.S. I've been reading RR for more than a year now, but didn't find the forums until 6-7 months ago.

Welcome

For some reason, i was thought that the different degrees of punishment was referring to those in hades awaiting judgement day. But the use of the word wrath, makes me think...

[TimothyK]

While there might be some truth to 'degrees' of eternal punishment, really, the semantics of that ordeal are all together irrelevant when you consider the bigger picture: eternal condemnation.

'Lake of Fire' and 'Hell' have no reprieve from the enormity of their context: torments everlasting, without end.

50 trillion billion million years later and you'll be in just as much agony and torments as when you arrived and it'll be that way in 100 trillion billion years and so and so forth forever and always.

The semantics of how exactly all that works doesn't mean anything at all in the long run frankly. Don't go there, period.
_____

God doesn't want you there and went so far as to give up Himself, the second of the Godhead, His precious and only begotten Son Jesus Christ to reconcile His creation to Himself.

So don't go to Hell. You can be sure you don't want to be there seeing as God went to such an extreme to save you from that terrible fate.

It was nothing He was obligated to do (we were deserving of our sentence) and was done in great and unfathomable love for mankind, for you as an individual and this is why accepting Jesus Christ is a personal responsibility.

The gift is for everyone. But you as an individual must choose to accept Christ's loving pardon for yourself or else justify yourself before an absolute, righteous, and exceedingly Holy God.

Everyone who will do the later is doomed in the most complete sense of the word, and everyone who will cling to the former will become God's own children. Sons and daughters of the Most High God.

[Buzzardhut]

[jjmundt]

While there might be some truth to 'degrees' of eternal punishment, really, the semantics of that ordeal are all together irrelevant when you consider the bigger picture: eternal condemnation.

'Lake of Fire' and 'Hell' have no reprieve from the enormity of their context: torments everlasting, without end.

50 trillion billion million years later and you'll be in just as much agony and torments as when you arrived and it'll be that way in 100 trillion billion years and so and so forth forever and always.

The semantics of how exactly all that works doesn't mean anything at all in the long run frankly. Don't go there, period.

This is ususally how the discussion ends. At the end of the day...

Regards,
Joel

[OnceWasLost]

Rev 20 has been mentioned here, and as far as "Hell" it is cast into the "Lake of Fire", along with "Death" and the unrepentant. 20:14-15

From temporary (hell) to eternal. (lake of fire)

As for degrees, that has always struck me as odd. How much, or what kind of punishment can be imposed on someone who cannot die, and is conscious that they will never feel warmth, fellowship or love? Nor will they be able to block out of their minds that their rejection of Jesus was the cause?

[iSong6:3]

Rev 20 has been mentioned here, and as far as "Hell" it is cast into the "Lake of Fire", along with "Death" and the unrepentant. 20:14-15

From temporary (hell) to eternal. (lake of fire)

As for degrees, that has always struck me as odd. How much, or what kind of punishment can be imposed on someone who cannot die, and is conscious that they will never feel warmth, fellowship or love? Nor will they be able to block out of their minds that their rejection of Jesus was the cause?

This gives me shivers. There will also be no hope, no hope at all, it's too late, it's final and eternal...

[OnceWasLost]

This gives me shivers. There will also be no hope, no hope at all, it's too late, it's final and eternal...

[IMSAVED]

Well, again, if by "levels" you mean degrees of punishment, then that passage is very obviously about punishment in hell. If you read the whole of Luke 12 and particularly verse 5 you'll see Jesus talking about judging the wicked when He comes. He then notes in verses 47-48 that some of the wicked will be beaten with few stripes whilst others will be beaten with more, hence why I say this proves some people in hell suffer more than others.

Oh, you also asked for another clearer passage. Try Luke 10:14 or Matt 23:14

I once heard a pastor say that the Bible says that their will be degrees of rewards in Heaven and degrees of punishment in Hell.

Yeah, sort of, though not less in a time-sense but, rather, less in a severity sense. Using the prison analogy - and without trivialising it - I guess we'd compare it to someone who had to spend his sentence in the Gulag vs a small time crook in, say, the UK who gets a TV in his cell, is allowed to play pool, use the gym, etc. Again not meaning to trivalise hell with that analogy or make it seem that someone will be having an OK sort of time, but that's all I could think of off the top of my head.

As for heaven having levels of reward, believers do get rewarded differently in the millennial kingdom on earth but it'd seem in the eternal state all are equal.

Yes,their will be those in Heaven that will be rewarded differently than others.Their will be those who barely got onto Heaven with no rewards because they are a believer.I do not think we will feel badly about those who have more rewards though.It will be Heaven we will be so glad to get there.

[TimothyK]

This is ususally how the discussion ends. At the end of the day...

Regards,
Joel

Yup.

I honestly don't understand what the OP had in mind or how such conversations continue to the point beyond 'maybe' and 'we don't know'.

We do have a very clear understanding of what Hell and the Lake of Fire entails in it's scope and their purpose.

What is worse then eternal judgement and torments unending? While there may be such a thing as to degrees of it, it's fruitless to expound on the unknown and certainly confusing a very absolute issue.

Make no mistake if you forego Jesus Christ and leave this world unsaved, you have no more hope of any good thing at all and only the terrible expectation of sure and unending judgement from which there will never be any relief or release.

Any semantical degree to that enormous and terrible absolute certainty is irrelevant. It is for God to dispense with.

[IMSAVED]

I heard someone say once that the people in Hell can see the people in Heaven but the people in Heaven can not see the people in Hell.Add insult to injury.

[shebrews]

Quote from Steve's post:

But the only similar statement for unbelievers is that they’ll be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:12-13). The only works God requires is belief in the Son (John 6:28-29). Even if He does consider other works of unbelievers, would He not make His judgment on the basis of their motives like He does with believers? What is the motive behind the good works of an unbeliever?

Me: wouldnt the works of the unbeliever count as that, in that, the unbeliever is still under the law. He thinks that he is judged by the law. Isn't that what Jesus was getting at with the Pharisees? Since the Pharisees discounted Him, then, he said to them, "that makes you even more guilty, because you say you know" Although our works count to them that believe as "rewards" or the "prize of the High Calling", and they are only saved by "faith" and not works, so, the unbeliever is lost by "unbelief", but his works (the law) determines his everlasting punishment, as the believer's works determine his treasures in Heaven.

[TimothyK]

Quote from Steve's post:

But the only similar statement for unbelievers is that they’ll be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:12-13). The only works God requires is belief in the Son (John 6:28-29). Even if He does consider other works of unbelievers, would He not make His judgment on the basis of their motives like He does with believers? What is the motive behind the good works of an unbeliever?

Me: wouldnt the works of the unbeliever count as that, in that, the unbeliever is still under the law. He thinks that he is judged by the law. Isn't that what Jesus was getting at with the Pharisees? Since the Pharisees discounted Him, then, he said to them, "that makes you even more guilty, because you say you know" Although our works count to them that believe as "rewards" or the "prize of the High Calling", and they are only saved by "faith" and not works, so, the unbeliever is lost by "unbelief", but his works (the law) determines his everlasting punishment, as the believer's works determine his treasures in Heaven.

Nothing. What is better? Anything. Nothing begets nothing, and anything is something.

Given this, how is it that there will be something of a 'lesser degree' of the process in regards to being forever condemened to eternal torment? What is less of nothing? Can nothing be measured in terms of 'more of nothing' or 'less of nothing'? Can you make 'more nothing' or subtract from nothing?

Eternal condemnation is eternal condemnation. Being cast into the Lake of Fire is being cast into the Lake of Fire, where their worm dieth not and they are tormented night and day by the flame forever and ever.

The end.

[Not Perfect, But Forgiven]

Yes, the Lake of Fire is forever.

If you could imagine a tiny sparrow and a planet full of sand dunes as high as the highest mountains. On the other side of the universe is another planet, completely bare. The bird's job is to fly back and forth across the span of the universe, delivering sand grain by grain to the barren planet from the sand planet on the opposite side of the universe. By the time the sparrow finishes delivering the very last grain of sand, that is the first second of eternity. It is a span of time so staggering and unfathomable, our human minds cannot hope to grasp it. The people in Hell will burn for billions upon trillions upon multiplied quintillions of eons beyond the description of the sparrow above, only to do it all over again for an infinite amount of time longer.

[shebrews]

I see what you are saying about the fact that eternal damnation is what it is.......
My question is: what's with the details? I get that the stripes refer to the disobedient believer. I get that a lot of the details are for the Jewish rejection of their Messiah, and the offer to the Gentile. There are warnings, however, and some people cannot discern the warnings to which is which. The disobedient, or the unbeliever. They are not one and the same, to me. Saved, as by fire.......probably the refining process of the disobedient believer.....who manages Heaven, but without treasure stored. There is import to this discussion or it never would be referred to so often in scripture......

Details are never to be shrugged off, and therefore, the questions are valid. The examining healthful. I never like the answer: the gospel is simple, let's keep it simple. It misses too many things that are important in the life of growth of the believer. Too many are satisfied to be "in" and not care about "bringing glory to God" .

[HeIsEnough]

I see what you are saying about the fact that eternal damnation is what it is.......
My question is: what's with the details? I get that the stripes refer to the disobedient believer. I get that a lot of the details are for the Jewish rejection of their Messiah, and the offer to the Gentile. There are warnings, however, and some people cannot discern the warnings to which is which. The disobedient, or the unbeliever. They are not one and the same, to me. Saved, as by fire.......probably the refining process of the disobedient believer.....who manages Heaven, but without treasure stored. There is import to this discussion or it never would be referred to so often in scripture......

Details are never to be shrugged off, and therefore, the questions are valid. The examining healthful. I never like the answer: the gospel is simple, let's keep it simple. It misses too many things that are important in the life of growth of the believer. Too many are satisfied to be "in" and not care about "bringing glory to God" .

Its the enormity of the subject, it paralyzes thought. (well ok, I can speak for myself ) Sort of like when the mother of John asked for her sons to be the right and left hand of honor with God. She knew not what she asked, she could not grasp the enormity of what that honor is, to be the favored of the One who sits in unapproachable light. The Lord gives us little on the eternal state, men could not handle it. I think the Lord purposely doesn't tell us a lot of things. We could not even handle knowing the date of our death, it would consume us. In effect He tells us hell is bad, really bad. We can't process much more. It is not enough detail to rationally discuss for me, just as I can't process eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth verses eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth, with just a little less weeping and gnashing.

Is the eternal state of the believer and his rewards, comparable in process, to the unbeliever and his less or more stripes?

Its often stated by believers that the crowns don't matter, we will lay them at His feet, giving praise to the Son for eternity. If that would be the case, then perhaps the level of punishment doesn't matter as well, its still really bad.