Question about prophecy

[so-blessed]

Sorry I seem to be full of questions lately! Your answers are appreciated.
Our pastor was talking about prophesy recently. The subject of Acts 2:17-18 came up. I said I thought this was a future event during the tribulation. He says that whilst it is, prophesy can be also applied to today as well as the future.
Is that correct? It's got me wondering. Thank you in advance.

[Hootmon]

Here is the whole thought...

But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy. 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
(Act 2:15-21)

IMO, it is referring to the immediate context as well as the Trib. I dont see any warrant to apply it to 'today' as your pastor said.

[God's Trombone]

Sorry I seem to be full of questions lately! Your answers are appreciated.
Our pastor was talking about prophesy recently. The subject of Acts 2:17-18 came up. I said I thought this was a future event during the tribulation. He says that whilst it is, prophesy can be also applied to today as well as the future.
Is that correct? It's got me wondering. Thank you in advance.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: ...

As far as I know, using the hermeneutic of exegesis approved on this board- Peter said
"this is that"meaning- it was the fulfillment of the prophecy. He didn't know that
it was to be fulfilled just short of : verse 2:19 which is the start of the tribulation. Fortunately for us, God interrupted prophecy at that point. But it is still a'comin down the road.

Peter was "full of the Holy Spirit" and completely controlled by the Holy Spirit, so he said exactly what God wanted him to say at that time. He was not making any mistakes, as some claim.

[so-blessed]

Thank you for your answers. I should have made the point that he was saying ALL prophesy was not only for the specific time it was given, but could also be applied at any other period in time. Does that make sense?
He just gave the Acts one as an example, implying God would not only do this in the end days, but also at any time before?
Can't see how you could say that about any other bible prohesies, though.

[iSong6:3]

I just linked this article in another thread but it seems to apply here too. See if it helps:

Peter's Quotation of Joel in Acts 2 by Dr. Thomas Ice

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/vie...joel-in-acts-2

[God's Trombone]

I just linked this article in another thread but it seems to apply here too. See if it helps:

Peter's Quotation of Joel in Acts 2 by Dr. Thomas Ice

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/vie...joel-in-acts-2

Acts 2:16 (KJV)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Ice apparently has an" agenda."

[iSong6:3]

Acts 2:16 (KJV)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Ice apparently has an" agenda."

What's that?

[God's Trombone]

What's that?

I took away from the article at the link that he opines that
"This is that" really doesn't mean:
"This is that."

To deny the plain meaning of the scripture, he must have some reason (agenda.)
I am not familiar with his views on other topics, but he clearly doesn't accept the
clear statement by Peter that the prophecy of Joel was then being fulfilled. The
"last days" mentioned in verse 17 had arrived.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Ice seems to be denying that Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said "this is that" which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

[Chris]

Acts 2:16 (KJV)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Ice apparently has an" agenda."

You've got one, too, right?!!

[Chris]

Sorry I seem to be full of questions lately! Your answers are appreciated.
Our pastor was talking about prophesy recently. The subject of Acts 2:17-18 came up. I said I thought this was a future event during the tribulation. He says that whilst it is, prophesy can be also applied to today as well as the future.
Is that correct? It's got me wondering. Thank you in advance.

That verse is talking about in the future during the tribulation. The gift of prophecy is available today like the other gifts of the HS, but the gift of prophecy today is not as it was with the OT prophets. No one today is giving out "new revelation" even though some claim they are.

[Buzzardhut]

That verse is talking about in the future during the tribulation. The gift of prophecy is available today like the other gifts of the HS, but the gift of prophecy today is not as it was with the OT prophets. No one today is giving out "new revelation" even though some claim they are.

correct
Today's gift of prophecy is declaring God's word, preaching what has already been prophesied from completed scripture.

[God's Trombone]

You've got one, too, right?!!

Just saw what looked like some confusion in the OP, and pointed out what Peter said in the verses.

Then I read the T. Ice article and saw that he doesn't agree that the prophecy of Joel was being fulfilled as Peter had said that it was.

Acts 2:16-18.

[Buzzardhut]

Just saw what looked like some confusion in the OP, and pointed out what Peter said in the verses.

Then I read the T. Ice article and saw that he doesn't agree that the prophecy of Joel was being fulfilled as Peter had said that it was.

Acts 2:16-18.

Peter did not say it was completely fulfilled, it was a partial fulfillment, and a likeness of the Joel passage explaining the complete fulfillment at Jesus' Second Coming

Joel refers to all of Israel experiencing events such as these, he is not referring to gentiles and Muslims etc...

Joel is describing events during the great trib and second coming for his audience - Israel

[God's Trombone]

Joel is describing events during the great trib and second coming for his audience - Israel

In his address at Pentecost in Acts 2 Peter quoted Joel as above and announced that the time had indeed arrived that Joel spoke of.

He urged Israel to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, offered a way of escape["save yourselves from this perverse generation"] from the coming tribulation, and promised that the Lord would return for the "times of refreshing". The believers would be protected through the coming tribulations.

Acts records that Israel rejected the offer, but the Lord (in grace)didn't fulfill the next part of Joel's prophecy which is the tribulation and second coming.

When we are caught up to be with the Lord in the heavens, the remainder of the prophecy will be fulfilled on earth.

[JesusIsLord]

In his address at Pentecost in Acts 2 Peter quoted Joel as above and announced that the time had indeed arrived that Joel spoke of.

He urged Israel to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, offered a way of escape["save yourselves from this perverse generation"] from the coming tribulation, and promised that the Lord would return for the "times of refreshing". The believers would be protected through the coming tribulations.

Acts records that Israel rejected the offer, but the Lord (in grace)didn't fulfill the next part of Joel's prophecy which is the tribulation and second coming.

When we are caught up to be with the Lord in the heavens, the remainder of the prophecy will be fulfilled on earth.

If you carefully read what Thomas Ice (and Arnold Fructembaum) are saying in that article, you will realize that there is good evidence for the words, "this is that..." to really mean "this is [like] that..."

To be clear, the Joel 2 passage is indeed talking about Daniel's 70th Week, and there is no getting around that. What Peter did was use the literal "signs and wonders" of Joel's prophecy to show what it's like when there is a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit. He used this scripture as an analogy to show that the people whom the Holy Spirit had descended on that morning were not drunk, but rather filled with the Holy Spirit, and that crazy "signs and wonders" happen when the Holy Spirit does this. It's hard for us to understand this because we did not grow up in a 1st Century Jewish culture. Their language and expressions were very different that ours, so at first glance, it can appear that Peter is claiming that the Joel 2 prophecy was fulfilled that morning, when in reality, Peter was not claiming that the Joel 2 passage was being fulfilled at all, either partially or completely. All of the Joel 2 passage will be fulfilled in the Tribulation only.

God bless,
- JIL

[Buzzardhut]

In his address at Pentecost in Acts 2 Peter quoted Joel as above and announced that the time had indeed arrived that Joel spoke of.

Remember, this is the time of Jesus' first coming, not second

He urged Israel to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, offered a way of escape["save yourselves from this perverse generation"] from the coming tribulation, and promised that the Lord would return for the "times of refreshing". The believers would be protected through the coming tribulations.

the disciples also believed Jesus would return in their lifetime and that current persecution was the tribulation, they did not know of all the events that would have to happen (because the Jews refuse to repent) before the great tribulation

Acts records that Israel rejected the offer, but the Lord (in grace)didn't fulfill the next part of Joel's prophecy which is the tribulation and second coming.

When the Jews cry out for Jesus to save them is when Jesus returns and Joel is completely fulfilled.

When we are caught up to be with the Lord in the heavens, the remainder of the prophecy will be fulfilled on earth.

The audience of Joel is the Jews, not gentiles, not Muslims, Joel's prophesy is fulfilled when the Jews cry out to Jesus and He returns.

[so-blessed]

Thank you for your replys. This got very interesting!!!

[Buzzardhut]

Thank you for your replys. This got very interesting!!!

[james46888]

I took away from the article at the link that he opines that
"This is that" really doesn't mean:
"This is that."

To deny the plain meaning of the scripture, he must have some reason (agenda.)
I am not familiar with his views on other topics, but he clearly doesn't accept the
clear statement by Peter that the prophecy of Joel was then being fulfilled. The
"last days" mentioned in verse 17 had arrived.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Ice seems to be denying that Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said "this is that" which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

In addition to the article iSong6:3 posted, you may also want to read Fruchtenbaum's (cited by Thomas Ice in his own piece) own article on the issue:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Fru...onsoftheOl.pdf.

Also, see http://scofieldprophecystudies.org/C...3viewsjoel.htm

which, if memory serves, gives a slightly different view than Frucht.