Beware of the subtle Hebrew Roots cult
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp
he is now saying that all so called messianic verses are talking about the culture that the prophets were in. That the prophets were not talking about the comming messiah at all but to that immediate culture. help me fight back as I scramble my bible and brain haha....ahahha
Last edited by Buzzardhut; October 7th, 2009 at 04:23 PM.
Senior Member Wannabe
http://www.ilifetv.com/thinkitthru/answers.htm
Dr. Michael Brown does a great job of answering objections. He's written four volumes on it. There are some really great debate audio downloads on this site also.
"But I say unto you, that one greater than the temple is here".
Matthew 12:6 (ASV)
"...and behold, a greater than Jonah is here."
Luke 11:32 (ASV)
"...and behold, a greater than Solomon is here."
Luke 11:31 (ASV)
gracias!Originally Posted by Zaphnathpaaneah
http://www.ilifetv.com/thinkitthru/answers.htm
Dr. Michael Brown does a great job of answering objections. He's written four volumes on it. There are some really great debate audio downloads on this site also.
ScribblerMod
One of the biggest problems is the Second Coming, for them. They believe that Jesus can't be Messiah because He left certain things undone, for example establishing peace. So, one of the defenses is to explain the Second coming based on scripture. Also, do you have the specific questions your prof. is asking, or what exactly he is claiming? On that site you mentioned, there is major misrepresenting of things such as the idea of the "Trinity," and to go point by point would be time consuming (there are replies to all their points, BTW, it would just take awhile to type everything up).
Just in general, I've read several books by Jewish believers, and Isaiah is always one of the biggest reasons they came to Christ. I saw an interview with a Jewish believer and he laughed and said he had a friend, also a Jewish believer that would print this out:
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
And show it to people (mostly unbelievers), tell them it was from the Bible and ask 1)Who do they think this is referring to, and after answering (usually, "Jesus") 2)Which book of the Bible it's in. Almost everyone, so he said, would guess the New Testament, and of course it's really from Isaiah chapter 53, the old testament.
Now, there are some Jewish individuals who believe that Isaiah chapter 53 is about the nation as a whole, but this doesn't hold up to examination. Notice the splits in pronoun between "he/him/his" and "we/our/us" There is a pronoun shift, hence a different object attached to each pronoun set.
Two books I can heartily recommend, if you are so inclined, is "Meshumed!" and "The Prophecied Messiah" sold on levitt.com from Zola Levitt Ministries.
Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig
Regular Member
The michael brown website is excellent - as is his series on answering Jewish objections to Jesus. In terms of the Messianic passages, in fact, the Talmud (the Jewish writings of commentaries and intrepretation over the last 2,000 years) clearly demonstrates that many rabbis over the ages have interpreted most the "messianic" verses in dispute these days between Christians and Jews as messianic (although admittedly, in many various ways). Frankly, the most significant evidence of these Jewish traditions is the New Testatement itself -which was written by Jews for a mostly (at least initially) Jewish audience who would have been well versed with these scriptures and the constant references by the writers to the Old Testatment "messianic" passages is certainly suggestive that the Jewish community of the day understood the passages to be messianic.
But the answer to your initial question - why don't most Jews today believe - because it's God's plan that the majority not believe - so the message would be spread to the Gentiles and around the world - and only after the full allotment of the Gentiles come in will the Jewish people (who have been made spiritually blind to the issue) as a nation come to acknowledge Jesus as Lord - See Romans 11 as well as Isaiah and Zecheriah.
Regards
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah
Theroc, you may want to check out Jews For Jesus website too (www.jewsforjesus.org)
for additional information. With all the other websites and books already suggested for you to read and research, I suspect we have made you one busy student, yes???
God's #1 Lagomorph
clearly some Jews did believe in Jesus, without them i wouldn't be able to read his word
"without Jesus my life on earth would be like listening to a neverending Fleetwood Mac song"BB
-------------------------- To Live Is To Die --------------------------
Wondering?
clearly some Jews did believe in Jesus, without them i wouldn't be able to read his word
Don't forget that Paul writes to tell us why the Israelites cannot see the truth about Jesus in the following verses. Remember the Jews of today have hardened hearts and are spiritually blind because of their rejection of Him. Yet in God's mercy we still see some Jews do come to Christ today, the rest will have to wait until Tribulation.
RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."
RO 11:9 And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
RO 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."
RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
RO 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
RO 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
RO 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
RO 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
RO 11:34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
RO 11:35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
RO 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Standing with Israel Mod
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Last edited by iSong6:3; February 5th, 2008 at 10:20 PM.
It IS a serious charge...one we should ALL look at.
Look at the Scriptures...
(Deu 13:1 RNKJV) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
(Deu 13:2 RNKJV) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other elohim, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
(Deu 13:3 RNKJV) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHVH your Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:4 RNKJV) Ye shall walk after YHVH your Elohim, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Then look at the accusation against Stephen...
(Act 6:8 RNKJV) And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
(Act 6:9 RNKJV) Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
(Act 6:10 RNKJV) And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
(Act 6:11 RNKJV) Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against Elohim.
(Act 6:12 RNKJV) And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
(Act 6:13 RNKJV) And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
(Act 6:14 RNKJV) For we have heard him say, that this Yeshua of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
This is just how we are presenting Jesus to the Jews. We say He did away with the Torah in CLEAR violation of Matthew 5:17-18
(Mat 5:17 RNKJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Mat 5:18 RNKJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Even to the casual observer, heaven and earth are STILL here. The church is saying that all of the dietary instructions are done away with, that the Sabbath - made holy at creation - has now been changed to Sunday, and that most of the rest of the Torah has been abolished. To the Jews, based on the Scriptures that we both read, this is a false messiah. Jesus DID NOT do away with ANYTHING. Not ONE jot or tittle has been done away with.
Yes, Yeshua is a stumbling block and the Rock of Offense. Why else would they look upon Him....
(Zec 12:10 RNKJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of favor and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and she will be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
There are certainly parts to the Talmud that speak against Jesus - ever wonder why? This is part of it...the other part is that He has yet to gather together all of the brethren.
And of course, on the flip side, you've got the http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/which was set up as response to that.Theroc, you may want to check out Jews For Jesus website too (www.jewsforjesus.org)
for additional information. With all the other websites and books already suggested for you to read and research, I suspect we have made you one busy student, yes???
Standing with Israel Mod
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Last edited by iSong6:3; February 5th, 2008 at 10:19 PM.
Regular Member
The sacred names dominionist groups, have their own bibles, some believe you have to follow the OT law, all 623, and you must be baptized to be saved. Their teaching is basically African or British Israelism. Another similar replacement religion which also has their own books, is the Rastafari Religion, which calls God Jah, elohim, ect. Some in these groups do not believe the trinity or that Jesus is God, and claim the trinty teaching keeps Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jew's, ect away from salvation.
The Brisish Israel has a virtual teacher of Yah, at the top of the page, which is a little scary.
NCCI-Charlotte The New Covenant Congregation of Israel Charlotte, Tabernacle Elohim, is a stand alone independent Sinaitic Institution with no other affiliates. We are acknowledged Hebrews and spiritual Israel who practice the canonized scriptures of the Old and New Testament without adding or detracting from its tenets because of man made traditions or interpretations derived from the intellectual analysis of biblical canon and alternative books such as the Talmud, Koran, Kabala, Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha and Religious exegetical New Testament homilies (Deuteronomy 12:32 & Isaiah 8:20). We assert that salvation comes from the practice of ALL of YAH's laws, which are relevant to status, position and righteousness stated and expounded on in the Torah (the first five books of the bible) without selecting those which are and are not convenient based upon social disposition, employment status, marital situation, views on life, political climate and hurt and pain caused by life's woes. We conclude that aside from complete obedience and reverence to YAH through the Torah, that mankind has to purge iniquity through a demonstration of sinaitic conviction, remorse and repentance through water purification (baptism) in the name of Yahshua the Messiah who is the grace of YAH given to propitiate iniquity to those who come to YAH through him (Hebrews 7:25 & Hebrews 10:19-24).
Enjoy the tour and offerings we have prepared for you and we look forward to partnering with you in worship, study and prayer.
Shalom
New Covenant Congregation of Yisrael-Tabernacle Elohim
http://www.nccicharlotte.com/
The New Covenant
Paleo Signature Edition
"and you have not denied my name"
Revelation 3:8
Behold what the faithful remnant has been waiting for! The Last Day's restoration of the New Covenant writings-Brit Chadashah in the foundation and spirit of the Torah, just as recounted by the Hebrew-speaking Jewish Apostles and disciples of Yahweh's Anointed- Yahsha the Meshiakh of Israel and Savior of the World!
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- Acts 4:12 NO MORE KJV CONFUSION & MISTRANSLATION!!
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Archeological discoveries continue to confirm the original paleo-Hebrew script. It is the handwriting of heaven! “Aramaic” Hebrew script was invented by the apostate Jews during the Babylonian Exile over 2,500 years ago. But this “modern” script cannot be read by Abraham, Mosheh, nor the Prophets! To witness actual pre-Babylonian Exile "Paleo" Hebrew script as used by the Patriarchs and Prophets of YHWH, click here to see archeological evidence. Now, the most controversial writings of all times have finally been translated accurately to reflect the original Hebrew thought of its original Israelite disciples and authors. These Apostles were eye-witnesses of the miracles of mercy, the Torah-based teachings and the powerful resurrection of Israel’s Anointed Meshiakh - the Savior of the world. Most importantly, this large 300-page version of The New Covenant is the first translation to contain the RESTORED and AUTHENTIC "paleo-Hebrew" Name of the author of Salvation, the Intelligent Designer and Creator of heaven and earth – Almighty "Yahweh" and His firstborn Son and Judge over mankind – "Yahsha h’Meshiakh".
The false prophets of both Judaism and Christianity (including King James I) success-fully REMOVED the Hebrew Name of the Savior from the pages of Scripture long ago, but Two Witness Ministries has fulfilled the prophecy allowing the Remnant to once again call upon His Name in one accord! (Zephanyah 3:9) America and the world cannot receive salvation from the Four Horses until they call upon the heaven-sent royal Hebrew Name of the Savior!! Only Two Witness Ministries breaks the ignorance and the deception foisted upon the world by the Church of Babylon! Be sure to see the Sample Page of Matthew 1.
The following sample of Genesis 1:1 (E-Source Text) is written in the Jewish "Aramaic" script...
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having His Name (Yahsha) and His Abba's Name (Yahweh) written in their foreheads..."
The Name of the Savior is Hebrew word #3091 (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)
YAHSHA
meaning: "Yahweh's Salvation"
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Yah, sacred names remnant
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=24221
Rastafari Religion
http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...was_bob_marley
Last edited by HeIsEnough; December 24th, 2007 at 07:36 AM.
Regular Member
For what its worth... I asked this to a woman the other day that I know who was raised Jewish but then converted to Christianity just a few years ago. She said that in her yeshiva, the members are heavily discouraged from reading certain books in the OT stating that they require special "interpretation" by rabbis and such. Of course, many of these books are heavily messianic in nature, such as Isaiah, and so many lay Jews simply don't know about the messianic scriptures that were fulfilled. When my friend just wanted to fight out the truth for herself, she read these "forbidden books" and started asking questions in which she said she was sinning by interpreting the Word of God wrongly and she should stop. But, the rebel she was, she kept reading and eventually realized Christ was the messiah.
If I had to answer the reason why the Jews don't believe in Jesus as a whole I would say it's because God has blinded them to this in order for a prophecy to be fulfilled in the last days. Individually, I would say that Jews are outright lied to and/or don't research the facts for themselves.
Hilary, mommy to Charlotte (12/08) and Clara (11/10)
Standing with Israel Mod
Lexie
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Last edited by iSong6:3; February 5th, 2008 at 10:19 PM.
It's one on the 20 some translations I have on E-Sword. It's the KJV with the names of God and Jesus changed to their Hebrew name. That's the sum of the difference. It's NOT one of the "Sacred Name" translations...Those folks go off the deep end as much as the rabid KJV only folks - IMHO.
No books - except Scripture.2) Where did you get these ideas? Author/book/??
Look at Matthew 5:17 - NO part of the Torah has/is done away with. Yeshua kept Sabbath and He ate kosher - albeit biblical kosher and not the multitude of man made ordinances that the rabbis have added.3) What does the NT say about maintaining Saturday as Sabbath or keeping kosher?
Here's a serious question...not trying to be a smart @$$...do you think that the OT has the same weight and validity as the NT?
Look at Deut 29...4) *He has yet to gather together all of the brethren.* Please explain.
(Deu 29:14 RNKJV) Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
(Deu 29:15 RNKJV) But with him that standeth here with us this day before YHVH our Elohim, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
Before you claim that this is just for Israel...I remind you about the last part of the verse...that's US.
Here's the rest of the answer...
(Deu 30:1 RNKJV) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither YHVH thy Elohim hath driven thee,
(Deu 30:2 RNKJV) And shalt return unto YHVH thy Elohim, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
(Deu 30:3 RNKJV) That then YHVH thy Elohim will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither YHVH thy Elohim hath scattered thee.
(Deu 30:4 RNKJV) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will YHVH thy Elohim gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Hasn't yet happened.
True...that's why he was stoned....but what were the CHARGES that were brought against Stephen to get him into the Sanhedrin in the first place?5) As for Stephen, the real issue for the Jews was that Stephen testified to seeing Jesus at the right hand of God, the
place of honor of the Father. This confirmed a statement that Jesus Himself made in Mt. 26:64, causing the High
Priest to call for His execution. The Jews considered this blasphemy, punishable by death.
Read Acts 7:54-58 again and see that it was precisely this statement that turned the rage murderous.
Thank you for your time, golfnerd, I really do appreciate it. : )
(Act 6:13 RNKJV) And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
(Act 6:14 RNKJV) For we have heard him say, that this Yeshua of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
This is the SAME thing we are doing when we present Yeshua to the Jews. We are saying that He has changed(abolished, done away with, fulfilled) the Torah, that He had done away with the dietary instructions, keeping Sabbath, discarding the Feasts of the LORD - Passover and not Easter, Feast of First Fruits/Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot instead of Christmas. Before you say that these are Jewish feasts, I remind you of this verse...
(Lev 23:2 RNKJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of YHVH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Notice it says the feasts of YHVH, not the Jews. Like I said in my previous post...straight from the mouth of OUR Messiah..."Not ONE JOT OR TITTLE will pass from the Torah till ALL be fulfilled." ALL is NOT fulfilled. Granted, Yeshua has accomplished huge chunks of it, but there are still many prophecies that are left to be fulfilled.
Awaiting your reply...
Blessings to you,
Mark
Arribamod
There is no division in God, only different ages in dealing with mankind.
Jesus and Paul are not divided, and the Apostle Paul makes it clear the the old covenant has been set aside, and the new covenant, written in the blood of Christ, is the current age in which we live.
As it is written, "the Father seeks those who worship Him in spirit and in truth." and the Spirit says: "Christ is the end of the law for those who believe."
Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.
Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
Standing with Israel Mod
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Last edited by iSong6:3; February 5th, 2008 at 10:18 PM.
ScribblerMod
Believers are no longer under the law, because Jesus fulfilled the Law for us, and we are no longer under the schoolmaster of the law. The different covenants are to be seen in their different contexts; Jesus' life, death, and resurrection/assumption changed the game. It's a good thing that there are indeed Jews who come to this realization; many maintain their customs, many do not.
Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig
He took away the CURSE of the Torah...the penalty He paid. The Torah didn't go away because He paid the penalty. You and I and everyone on this board are still sinners - yes we are saved by grace and covered by the shed blood of our Messiah Yeshua - and the Torah stands as instructions on how the Almighty wants us to live.
Let's say that you get caught speeding...you go before the judge and pay your fine. You have "fulfilled" or taken care of the PENALTY of the law. Does the law then go away because you have paid the penalty? NO!! The guy who walked in behind you is subject to the SAME law.
When you say Jewish customs...have you REALLY looked at Lev 23? There's no mention of Jew one in there..they are all feasts of God...not the Jews. Even using the broadest definition of a Jew, you MAY have the tribe of Judah, a little of Levi and Benjamin thrown in there. What do you do with the rest of them?
But to say that the Torah is fulfilled is not true. Yeshua clearly states that it will not go away till ALL is fulfilled. His work on the Cross is only a part of the big picture. There's more to come.
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