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Thread: Beware of the subtle Hebrew Roots cult

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerRickster View Post
    FYI- Vicky at www.seekgod.ca (well researched the Hebrew Roots movement) has opened up a forum- You can freely ask her questions.
    Useful link, DerRickster. Interesting Discussion forum too!

  2. #142
    sisterinchrist Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Grrr, It's an Internet-fueled heresy known primarily as the Hebrew Roots cults.
    Well that explains it ... my sister-in-law was Wicca; then we brought her to Christ and she was on fire for Him for many years; all of a sudden she denounces Christ and becomes a Jew! I was truly mystified

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisterinchrist View Post
    Well that explains it ... my sister-in-law was Wicca; then we brought her to Christ and she was on fire for Him for many years; all of a sudden she denounces Christ and becomes a Jew! I was truly mystified
    I'm so sorry to hear this tragic story. Sadly, it is all too common in these cults which promote unsaved Jewish thought over the Bible, particularly the New Testament.

    If she was truly saved, the Lord still holds her. Don't give up, keep praying.

    Check out http://www.lightingtheway.blogspot.com Dwayna Litz has an awesome apologetics and evangelism ministry and has a lot of information on the HR cults. Also, there are two links on the right, "Hebrew Roots/God's Grace" and "Hebrew Roots/God's Truth" with much more great stuff, including testimonies of those involved with HR who came out of it.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    I'm so sorry to hear this tragic story. Sadly, it is all too common in these cults which promote unsaved Jewish thought over the Bible, particularly the New Testament.

    If she was truly saved, the Lord still holds her. Don't give up, keep praying.

    Check out http://www.lightingtheway.blogspot.com Dwayna Litz has an awesome apologetics and evangelism ministry and has a lot of information on the HR cults. Also, there are two links on the right, "Hebrew Roots/God's Grace" and "Hebrew Roots/God's Truth" with much more great stuff, including testimonies of those involved with HR who came out of it.
    Good links, iSong6:3

  5. #145
    Traveling Through Guest

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    I have been having conversations with a devotee of Armstrongism, Worldwide Church of God. He is saying that Christians will become gods. I specially asked him if Christians were to become gods and he said yes, the Bible teaches that. Here is his reasoning.

    Born Again: The Kingdom of God!
    GOD IS REPRODUCING HIMSELF! That's the glorious Good News that Jesus boldly proclaimed! The Gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD announces the GOD KINGDOM: a Spirit-Born Kingdom of God-Beings! A Royal Family that we can enter (Rev. 3:21). A Divine Family that will administer God's Government throughout the universe and eternity (Isa. 9:7; Dan. 7:18).

    There is only one way to enter God's Kingdom - and that is through Christ (Acts 4:12). He is the Key that unlocks God's Royal House, the Open Door to the Universe, the Gateway to Eternity, the Immortal Pioneer who has led the way! All other ways are dead ends and will self-destruct (John 10:1).

    God became man, so man could become God (John 1:14; Matt. 10:25). Mankind has been created after the GODKIND, and after a life of conversion, of changing for the better, of going through the process of purification (becoming more God-like, more Christ-like, more Kingdom-like) we can be BORN AGAIN BY A RESURRECTION -- just like Jesus was, the firstborn of MANY brethren! (Rom. 1:4; 8:29). Presently, we're far too human, but soon we're to be transformed into glorious, immortal Spirit! (John 10:34-35; Ephes. 4:24). This is what Jesus told Nicodemus, the Jewish religious leader. He didn't beat around the bush, He got straight to the point and told him: "You must be born again" (John. 3:3).

    Jesus elaborated on this bombshell, seeing Nicodemus was dumbstruck (just like so many religious people today), and explained that if your parents are flesh and blood humans, it's only natural that you're also human. "That which is born of the flesh IS flesh." You're nothing more or less. Kind after kind (Gen. 1:27). And if you're born again by a Spirit-composed GOD, it's only supernatural that you'll become a Spirit-composed God! "That which is born of the Spirit IS Spirit" (John 3:3-8). Human-beings can become GOD-BEINGS! But first we must be BORN AGAIN.

    As for the New Jerusalem coming down to Earth: Pearly Gates

  6. #146
    candlelight Guest

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    I think that some are worried they will not be under the blessing of Abraham, which is wrong because as Christians we are grafted in and also share in the blessing because of Jesus. May 15, 1948 Israel miraculously became a nation in pretty much one day. The Bible says that God will gather his people back to the land. If you are not Jewish, you cannot make yourself Jewish. There is a certain DNA the the Jewish people have that the Gentiles do not, so you are either Jewish or you are not. There are a lot of Jewish people that are coming to the the saving grace and knowledge of Christ and that is wonderful. I think there is definitely gentiles that are Jewsih wanabe's, but I think in these last days the Lord is bringing the Jews and Gentiles together, but that still does not make a Gentile a Jew. I think there may be some zealous Gentiles that just want to get into the action that they think they maybe missing out on?

  7. #147
    he_is_risen Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedbyChrist View Post
    This is wild. Recently, I have been learning about the Feasts and wanting to celebrate the feasts. Because I have learned so much about the influence the Catholic church has had on our beliefs and changed things I have questioned why we worship on Sunday. Questioning why since Paul still taught on the Sabbath and worshipped on the Sabbath why we don't. I feel that the Catholic church is somehow causing many to "miss the mark" with its teachings and by keeping eyes off of Jesus. By having members to confess to someone rather than confessing to Jesus, it is not acknowledging Jesus and the Holy Spirit for Who they are. It's as if the veil was never torn. It bothers me so much. I have begun questioning how the Catholic church has affected the doctrine of other churches. I know that I am free from the law because of Jesus. But, I am interested in celebrating the feasts.
    Do these people feel bound by the law?
    The RCC is unquestionably a pagan institution. All of these feast days and veneration of saints all rely on previous pagan practices that the RCC had to deal with during the expantion of the Roman empire. The RCC didn't eliminate paganism, it assimilated it. They are wholly Unbiblical. The RCC most definitely will be the main vehicle of the anti-christ.

    As for worshipping on Sunday... the reason for that was because when the RCC became the official religion in Rome, the offical day of worship was moved to coincide with the worship day other "official" Roman religions, which were sun worship cults.

    With that said, though, we can and should worship any and every day of the week... though Sunday has the obvious special meaning since that's the day He was risen.

    As for people re-adopting the Old Covenant ways... like someone else said, there are 14 letters written by Paul dealing with this topic, either directly or indirectly. That's over half of the New Testament! It's completely unfathomable how anyone who considers themselves Saved can ignore this. We are Saved by Grace, not by wearing our beards long.

    It boggles the mind. These people cannot be reading the same Bible I read. However, I blame the media... with all of their books and PBS programs about "trying to find the historical Jesus" or "Jesus the observant Jew" books. People need to read their Bibles, not watch some hack TV program whose main goal is entertainment value and not historical content.

  8. #148
    JudeoC Guest

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    I just read this & would like to say that there is a difference between the Hebrew Roots cult & Messianic Judaism. I happen to attend a Messianic congregation that is well balanced (but perhaps some are not). It is a nice way for Jewish believers to still maintain our culture.
    We are not under Mosaic law. However, celebrating the biblical feasts is not, IMO, keeping "the law". From what I understand, "the last supper" was on Passover & Jesus/Yeshua rose on First Fruits.
    There is nothing in the bible that says I have to celebrate Easter. I see nothing wrong with it, however, & if that's how you celebrate the resurrection please continue to do so & enjoy! But since I used to celebrate Passover with it's older meaning, why can't I continue to celebrate it with it's newer meaning? To me Passover doesn't cease to exist because I am now a believer - it actually takes on a new & improved meaning.
    Most Messianic congregations appear to have roughly (the estimate I've heard) 60% Gentile & 40% Jewish believers. Everyone is free to also attend other churches, etc. Some attend Calvary Chapels, for example, which as you know offer biblically based teaching. We are definitely not a cult.

    What the true "Messianic movement" is trying to do is: 1) offer a way for Jews who believe to maintain our culture (the bible says to give up "the law", not culture), 2) offer a way for Gentile believers to be educated about the culture & biblical feasts if they so desire, 3) offer a way to transition Jews to understanding & trusting the gospel by using familiar terminology (for example, "Torah" instead of "Scriptures", 4) create more ministry that supports the believers in Israel.
    Many of the attendees at our congregation don't wear crosses. However, I don't know of any rule that disallows it. I also don't know of anything biblical that says I have to wear one.
    I have only experienced, IMO, good biblical teaching at my congregation & good fellowship. I have not had to deal with any laws!

    Jewish believers in Israel are often persecuted & they need our support. The Messianic community is reaching out to them as well as unsaved Jews in Israel, the US, & elsewhere throughout the world. I think it is easier for Jews to engage in discussions about the Messiah when familiar terminology is used.

    A group called Yeshua's Harvest Ministries (www dot YeshuaHarvest dot org) has made a DVD called "The Living Stones". It's about connecting with believers in Israel. You might find this interesting.

    So please, don't confuse the Hebrew Roots thing with true Messianic Judaism.
    I'm sorry some of you have had a bad experience.
    And I don't know about the scripturally "incorrect" Messianic music. To me it seems Marty Goetz, Paul Wilber, & Deborah Kline-Iantorno all do a good job. I'll bet Joel Chernoff does as well.

    Thanks!

  9. #149
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    (double post )

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    I'm really glad you agree that the Hebrew Roots cults are aberrant and should always be avoided. I try to separate my own comments about the HR cults from more *mainline* Messianic Judaism when the subject(s) come up.

    However, as you probably know even though you are in a good congregation, there is no one voice for Messianic Judaism, there are different steering organizations with different agendas and philosophies, and under them are congregations also varied one to another - suffice it to say that there is an incredibly wide continuum of practices and beliefs, from virtual churches that meet on Saturday (or even Sunday, as I've seen) to groups that are truly HR cults or those that are on the fringe of that, with everything else strewn between those extremes.

    So when you say "Messianic Judaism is this or that...", it really isn't possible to define it that way, it can't be an accurate portrayal of so many other congregations within the movement. I believe the various leaders of the movement would agree with me, as they are in the forefront of all the bickering amongst one another, still. (Personally, I have been very close to many within the *leadership*, the *visionaries*.)

    As for your hearing that it is 60% Gentile, Stan Telchin (JFJ) has put the number at more like 80%, with some others saying about 90% - and some have no Jews at all.

    My heart is lighter about you, that you seem to realize that both Jews and Gentiles are not under any Mosaic Laws. We are all grafted into Messiah Jesus, and not into any dead religion that could not even save our own Jewish people.

    Let's not boast about anything save in our Savior, let's all glory in our Lord, Who broke down all barriers between all who belong in Him, and let's worship only Him, let's promote only Him. Amayn v'amayn (amen and amen).

  11. #151
    JudeoC Guest

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    ...and some have no Jews at all
    That doesn't sound like a Messianic Jewish congregation, now does it?

    ...from virtual churches that meet on Saturday (or even Sunday...)
    We meet on Saturday & the leader of our congregation also leads another one that meets on Sunday. He doesn't think it matters what day or days worship occurs on. And I'm not particularly worried about this issue.

    However, as you probably know even though you are in a good congregation, there is no one voice for Messianic Judaism, there are different steering organizations with different agendas and philosophies, and under them are congregations also varied one to another - suffice it to say that there is an incredibly wide continuum of practices and beliefs
    Well, this would be true for Christianity as well.
    My point is simply that there seems to be a common belief that keeping the Jewish culture alive is not a bad thing and can certainly be a good thing in some ways. And, there seems to be quite a bit of common interest in ministry to support Israel & particularly Jewish believers in Israel. There are also Evangelical Christian groups that have similar ministry. For example, Joel Rosenberg has an apparently wonderful ministry that helps Israel. He does not appear to concentrate, however, in helping the Jewish believers who are being persecuted. I'm not putting him down at all by saying this - I think he's doing a wonderful job - I'm just citing an example to make a point. I see certain ministries within Messianic Judaism helping to specifically support these believers.

    My heart is lighter about you...
    Gee, thanks, I guess... (so are you judging me to be OK then?)

    You know, the main point of my post was simply to try to explain that there is a difference between the Hebrew Roots cult & Messianic Judaism in general. The original poster asked kind of a "what's up with that?" question. I wanted her to know that there is a difference between the two & people who continue to celebrate the biblical feasts are not all bad. Personally, I'm feeling called to spend time with my Messianic congregation & celebrate Passover. I'm also feeling called to share the information I posted.

    Tonight I participated in a bible study I've been going to at a Christian church. My group was very happy & encouraged me when they heard about how I'm feeling called to participate more with the Messianic group. They know my time with them at the church will be less, but they hope I will continue to follow G-d's lead.

    The Messianic leaders can argue all they want to, just like all the Christian leaders argue as well. I'm not looking to be involved in the politics of any of it. G-d gets through to us in varied ways as we are all different & he has a different plan for each one of us. I just want people to understand that he can reach us through Messianic Judaism just like he can through Evangelical Christianity or a Mainline Protestant denomination or whatever. I just want people to know that Messianic Judaism isn't a cult - OK? And personally, I'm a bit worried about the growing anti-semitism & the last thing anyone needs to do is decide that Messianic Jews are members of a cult & should be treated as such (we all know, hopefully by now, that there are indeed FEMA camps - we just don't know who they are for...).

    Thank you, & may you find peace with our L-rd & savior.

  12. #152
    My Abba's Child Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedbyChrist View Post
    Another thing that worries me is that I was saved when I was 12. But, I don't think I really surrendered to Jesus until just recently. I thought I was saved that whole time but I really don't think I was. I was a good, responsible girl, but I just really didn't feel different. I'm afraid many are the same way. I think of all the people that think because they have prayed the sinner's prayer that that is it. They really didn't give all to Jesus. They are really going to be dismayed when they hear Him say "Depart. I never knew you." I'm afraid of what churches have not done. What they have left out that will keep many from entering the gates. What do you all feel?
    AMEN! There are some preachers that are calling the "altar call" as it is defined and used today is the same as infant baptism... it just gives a false sense of security. The sinner's prayer is a part of that. People think that, as long as they claim to be Christians they can be, live and do whatever they want and God is FORCED to take them in.

    In His love,

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudeoC View Post
    That doesn't sound like a Messianic Jewish congregation, now does it?
    Thank you, my point exactly. And yet they seek to bear the name and to glorify *all things Jewish*, it's a problem.

    We meet on Saturday & the leader of our congregation also leads another one that meets on Sunday. He doesn't think it matters what day or days worship occurs on. And I'm not particularly worried about this issue.
    Good. Colossians 2:16.

    Well, this would be true for Christianity as well.
    My point is simply that there seems to be a common belief that keeping the Jewish culture alive is not a bad thing and can certainly be a good thing in some ways. And, there seems to be quite a bit of common interest in ministry to support Israel & particularly Jewish believers in Israel. There are also Evangelical Christian groups that have similar ministry. For example, Joel Rosenberg has an apparently wonderful ministry that helps Israel. He does not appear to concentrate, however, in helping the Jewish believers who are being persecuted. I'm not putting him down at all by saying this - I think he's doing a wonderful job - I'm just citing an example to make a point. I see certain ministries within Messianic Judaism helping to specifically support these believers.
    My bolded - exactly again. Some work to support Israel and Jewish believers as is the purported claim to their existence. Some others get bogged down in promoting *all things Jewish* to Gentiles, who do not have a Jewish heritage. This is not our mandate as believers.


    Gee, thanks, I guess... (so are you judging me to be OK then?)
    Sarcasm, but that's okay. I have such a burning desire to see both Jews and Gentiles not get caught up in some of the same things that Paul (Rav Sha'ul) wrote about in Galatians. I have simply seen too much of shipwrecked lives over the decades, and as you feel a calling to promote Messianic Judaism, I feel called to warn against the abuses and excesses. I care about God's people and His Word.

    You know, the main point of my post was simply to try to explain that there is a difference between the Hebrew Roots cult & Messianic Judaism in general. The original poster asked kind of a "what's up with that?" question. I wanted her to know that there is a difference between the two & people who continue to celebrate the biblical feasts are not all bad. Personally, I'm feeling called to spend time with my Messianic congregation & celebrate Passover. I'm also feeling called to share the information I posted.
    I have tried to maintain the distinctions also, but when the distinctions blur, as they often do, it does no good to be disingenuous and say "But we're Messianic and not HR." Again, glad you've found a good congregation that you would say facilitates your growth in Christlikeness. There are many more that promote growth in Gentiles toward *Jewishness*, legalism, the Mosaic Law, keeping Torah to be "obedient", adding to Jesus's "it is finished" work on the cross for us, Two-House heresy, and myriad other wrong theologies, instead.

    The Messianic leaders can argue all they want to, just like all the Christian leaders argue as well. I'm not looking to be involved in the politics of any of it. G-d gets through to us in varied ways as we are all different & he has a different plan for each one of us. I just want people to understand that he can reach us through Messianic Judaism just like he can through Evangelical Christianity or a Mainline Protestant denomination or whatever. I just want people to know that Messianic Judaism isn't a cult - OK?
    Again, He can do anything. He can use a rock if He wishes. There are some fine, strong believers involved in Messianic Judaism, of course. There are also wolves. It would make sense that the enemy would be hard at work in such circles. And he is.

    Further, and again, the vast majority of Jews are in churches, not Messianic fellowships. Just a well-known fact. Yours is not the only hope for Jewish people to come to saving faith. Be comforted.

    And personally, I'm a bit worried about the growing anti-semitism & the last thing anyone needs to do is decide that Messianic Jews are members of a cult & should be treated as such (we all know, hopefully by now, that there are indeed FEMA camps - we just don't know who they are for...).
    Known to the Israeli government as a flaming Zionist, I agree. I have spent a lot of time in Israel and working for her interests outside of Israel. Many here love Israel and support her - I for one wouldn't be here otherwise.

    As for the perception of Messianic Jews, they are considered to have abandoned Judaism by many Jews. Strike one. If they adopt heretical and apostate beliefs, they will be called on it by other believers who love the Word of God and the doctrines that make up our faith. If it doesn't apply to you and your congregation, why would you take offense.

    Thank you, & may you find peace with our L-rd & savior.
    I have true peace with and in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Or Yeshua haMashiach, if you prefer. Praise His Name forever and ever!

    You neglected my words about finding our common ground with all believers in Jesus, knowing our true identity now lies in Him. Do the work as you feel called, but know underneath, our identity is in Him.

    You won't find Gentile believers here so eager to promote their Baptist, Bible Church, Assemblies of God, whatever, beliefs as do some Messianics who show up to promote their way is the best and the truest way to do things as we all seek to walk with our Lord. That is red flag number one for me. Just doing what I'm called to, also.

  14. #154
    Berean Girl Guest

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    There are also aberrant messianic congregations and even some congregations in cahoots with rick warren and spiritual disciplines stuff. I just found out last night that a congregation that I attend from time to time for the holy days has been working with ecumenical prayer activities under the warren umbrella as of 2008 - dont know about this year - and this after I had sent them numerous emails in the early part of 2008 expressing my concerns over the then church I was attending beginning to have relations with warren stuff (an affiliate church of the calvary chapel movement). Needless to say, I left that church and now as of last night, I dont think I can attend the messianic congregation anymore either because of the warren affiliation.

    So, just keep you eyes open because the enemy is on a real prowl not only against the christian churches but also the messianic as well.


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    BG - I'm really sorry to hear what happened to your congregation. The heartbreaks continue.

    In case you haven't already seen this, here's one site that has a lot of research and links re: the HR and Messianic movements. Below, in particular, is the start of three articles about how the Messianic movement and Toward Jerusalem Council II are promoting the ecumenical, and linked also is how the end result is toward the OWR. http://www.seekgod.ca/jerusalem2.htm

  16. #156
    Berean Girl Guest

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    Thanks for your concern.

    I am ok tho. I know things are gonna get worse and worse, but we must must must remain vigilant. Wise as serpents and humble as doves.

    I am dismayed that this congregation, the only one I have attended in addition to my now current church (which I love by the way and the Pastor is a warrior, you can hear him on the radio on Sunday nights at 8:30 p.m. EST thru your computer at www.wmca.com and click on listen live to "Matthew Recker". I believe he will be speaking out this coming sunday on more apostacy issues, including the messianic mess.

    I will continue to listen to messianic music and 2 Nice Jewish Boys radio program and will try to visit Jonathan Cahn's congregation out in Jersey one of these days, but at least I still have a good church to go to.

  17. #157
    JudeoC Guest

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    In case you haven't already seen this, here's one site that has a lot of research and links re: the HR and Messianic movements. Below, in particular, is the start of three articles about how the Messianic movement and Toward Jerusalem Council II are promoting the ecumenical, and linked also is how the end result is toward the OWR. http://www.seekgod.ca/jerusalem2.htm
    I really wasn't going to comment on this thread again but I'm feeling disgusted over this.

    So are you actually one of the members of Vicky Dillen's group? I'm thinking you are.

    The Messianic movement is not promoting a One World Religion - that is a lie.

    Why don't you have a discussion with the Moderators about your views. Are you including Arnold Fruchtenbaum in your accusations? From what I understand the Moderators here respect Arnold Fruchtenbaum who considers himself a Messianic Jew.

    You're the one who's caught up in a cult.

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    Tsk tsk

    Quote Originally Posted by JudeoC View Post
    I really wasn't going to comment on this thread again but I'm feeling disgusted over this.

    So are you actually one of the members of Vicky Dillen's group? I'm thinking you are.

    The Messianic movement is not promoting a One World Religion - that is a lie.

    Why don't you have a discussion with the Moderators about your views. Are you including Arnold Fruchtenbaum in your accusations? From what I understand the Moderators here respect Arnold Fruchtenbaum who considers himself a Messianic Jew.

    You're the one who's caught up in a cult.

  19. #159
    Biblenuggetlady Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJ View Post
    I was wondering if this was a National phenomenon or if it's just local to New Mexico. But my husband and I were discussing today the number of people we know who have taken to Judaism. Christians who are putting themselves back under the law. Observing all the Jewish customs, holidays, and traditions. Then looking down on others who don't share their beliefs. Worshiping on the Sabbath and not Sunday. That sort of thing. Anyone?

    I wasn't sure if this was an end time thing, or a christian theology discussion. So please forgive me if this is in the wrong spot.
    There has been a big move towards some Christian's getting involved in the HR movement and getting bound up in legalism. When the church was reminded of our Jewish Roots, which the church did not acknowlege for a VERY long time...like many things...zeal took over and I think some folks went overboard. But remember, there are extremes in all things. The HR movement is not the same as Messianic Jewish Churches. We have Jewish believers on our board that belong to solid Messianic Churches and Fruchtenbaum belongs to one. There are Messianic Churches that go to extremes, just like there are Baptists, Methodists, Episocpalians, etc that have their unBiblical extremes. The HR movement is cultish, just like we say the RCC and 7th Day Adventists are, it is the Cross PLUS something-like works. The HR movement requires dietary restrictions, keeping the law, keeping the feasts, etc. Some of the favorite prophecy teachers really shined a light on our Jewish Roots and folks got excited in discovering our Jewish Savior and His people Israel, but like I said...it swung to the extreme. I think we need to be careful though not to bundle the HR and the Messianic Congregations into one basket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biblenuggetlady View Post
    /snipped/

    I think we need to be careful though not to bundle the HR and the Messianic Congregations into one basket.
    I think it was in this thread I said there are many fine, solid believers in the Messianic movement. I was involved with it for years, I know them first-hand.

    I've also made it a point to always separate the normative Messianic movement from the Hebrew Roots cults. By their very definition, they are cults, no two ways around that.

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