Struggles with questions regarding God and science

[pavelsmith]

I think we all know that bible prophecy has shifted into high gear these past few weeks, right? One thing that I am often stuck pondering is determining what I am to do about it. I mean, I know how things are going to be - because the bible says so - but my natural instinct may be to try to prevent what is happening. For instance, I am against a one world government if it means that we lose our freedoms and American lifestyles etc. BUT I also know that this is the course the WILL be traveled. There is no fighting it. I struggle with this.. Do you?

The other thing I am struggling with is the supernatural acts of God versus science. For example only: Some people argue that the recent birds/fish deaths are not a sign or warning from God because there is a scientific reason for the deaths. Does God not use science? Why does it always have to be science OR God.. and not both. So many people write off the possibility that it has to do with God if there is a scientific explanation for it. This drives me crazy..

When you see things happen today, how do you handle it? Do you 'keep you hands off the wheel' and just let things go - or do you worry about things?

Sorry if this post is all over the place! I appreciate any input you may have.
Thanks you

[Nightelf]

The other thing I am struggling with is the supernatural acts of God versus science. For example only: Some people argue that the recent birds/fish deaths are not a sign or warning from God because there is a scientific reason for the deaths. Does God not use science? Why does it always have to be science OR God.. and not both.

I believe it can be both.

The Bible says that the whole earth, and all of creation "groans" under the weight of sin. It's been groaning since Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, and it groans even more now. Nature is not thriving as God intended it to, when He first created the earth. There's something wrong with everything, thanks to sin...... and it's getting worse just as our collective sin, faithlessness and moral decline worsens. So the thing with the birds and the fish..... while I take a "wait and see" attitude to see if they can find some definable reason for this (such as La Nina for example) - whether they find a reason or not, our dying ecosystem is ultimately the result of sin. Maybe it *is* an "act of God"..... but in my mind, He is in control of it all anyway, scientific explanations or no.

Whether God sent this as a specific "wakeup call", or as a warning of what's to come during the Tribulation, or neither, I'm not sure of yet (in my own mind). And yet, all of nature's troubles of late - earthquakes, severe storms, hurricanes, dying species, should be a wakeup call, that our sinful condition is hurting everything, even nature.

Maybe God is allowing these things so that we have more opportunities to reach out with the Gospel, to those who are troubled by them. So we should have God's peace that passeth all understanding within us, and be ready to give an account for the Blessed Hope that is within us, during these troubling times. Amen?

[ImOnStandby221]

i hear a lot of modern scientists say that is no supernatural, only the natural that we have yet to understand. in other words they believe everything that we would call a miracle will eventually be explained in purely scientific terms.

but this doesn't bother me just because Scripture tells us that men are "willingly ignorant" (II Peter 3:5) in their own deceitful rarionalizations. once they choose to reject G-d, then He allows them to accept their own explanations.

but to the point of G-d allowing His works to be done by natural means---yes and no. i think Joshua 10 is a perfect example. here we find the children of Israel up against the amorites in gilgal in hand-to-hand combat. but then suddenly G-d sends a huge hailstorm that basically wipes out the amorite army to the point where "there were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." (verse 11). while hail itself is a natural and common occurence---how is it possible that theses huge hailstones only managaed to strike the amorite soldiers without striking any of the children of Israel inches away from them? scientists will only look at the hail, not at the reason G-d sent it. but we as believers know the whole picture.

in the same chapter a few verse later is the almost unbelieveable account where Joshua asks G-d to let the sun stand still and it happens. what happened here? no one knows for sure. did the earth stop rotating? did G-d just put the planet into some stasis field for a few hours? again, these are the "answers" that science is looking for. i have no problem with whatever the scientific explanation (if there is one) may be. but if that's all people want, they miss the point of the passage entirely---G-d saves His people.

Scripture tells us that knowledge "puffs up" (I Corinthians 8:1) and sadly that's all that unsaved men are looking for. what G-d wants for us is something far greater---faith. even if science could explain every last miracle in the Bible, it would be no closer to discovering the heart of G-d.

[TimothyK]

When you see things happen today, how do you handle it? Do you 'keep you hands off the wheel' and just let things go - or do you worry about things?

Luke 12
“Dear friends, don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot do any more to you after that. But I’ll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill you and then throw you into hell. Yes, he’s the one to fear.

“What is the price of five sparrows—two copper coins? Yet God does not forget a single one of them. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.

“And when you are brought to trial in the synagogues and before rulers and authorities, don’t worry about how to defend yourself or what to say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what needs to be said.”

Then, turning to his disciples, Jesus said, “That is why I tell you not to worry about everyday life—whether you have enough food to eat or enough clothes to wear. For life is more than food, and your body more than clothing. Look at the ravens. They don’t plant or harvest or store food in barns, for God feeds them. And you are far more valuable to him than any birds! Can all your worries add a single moment to your life? And if worry can’t accomplish a little thing like that, what’s the use of worrying over bigger things?

“Look at the lilies and how they grow. They don’t work or make their clothing, yet Solomon in all his glory was not dressed as beautifully as they are. And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and thrown into the fire tomorrow, he will certainly care for you. Why do you have so little faith?

“And don’t be concerned about what to eat and what to drink. Don’t worry about such things. These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers all over the world, but your Father already knows your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and he will give you everything you need.

“So don’t be afraid, little flock. For it gives your Father great happiness to give you the Kingdom.

Philippians 4:6-7
Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.

There is far more of a Biblical precedent for the first option then for the second one among those you mention. Not to encourage a defeatist attitude or that you should stop trying in all things in your life. God simply tells us not to sweat it.

A very interesting thing happens with folks when you tell them this. Some do not comprehend and worry still, some take it to a disgusting unbiblical extreme, and some get it.

Guess which one has achieved contentment and has obtained the peace that only Jesus Christ can offer?

[metroames]

It is possible that this stuff happens all the time. You know how the media gets...they follow one story and now its "breaking" news and it's suddenly happening all over the world!

Unfortunately, there is such a thing as media hype.

That being said, I find it interesting, that before God judged Israel it looks like there might have been similar events occur as a sign of the impending doom and also during the Judgment:

Hosea 4:1-3 (New King James Version)

Hosea 4
1 Hear the word of the LORD,
You children of Israel,
For the LORD brings a charge against the inhabitants of the land:
“ There is no truth or mercy
Or knowledge of God in the land.
2 By swearing and lying,
Killing and stealing and committing adultery,
They break all restraint,
With bloodshed upon bloodshed.
3 Therefore the land will mourn;
And everyone who dwells there will waste away
With the beasts of the field
And the birds of the air;
Even the fish of the sea will be taken away.

Zephaniah 1
2 “ I will utterly consume everything
From the face of the land,”
Says the LORD;
3 “ I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the birds of the heavens,
The fish of the sea,
And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked.
I will cut off man from the face of the land,”
Says the LORD.
4 “ I will stretch out My hand against Judah,
And against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
I will cut off every trace of Baal from this place,
The names of the idolatrous priests with the pagan priests—

This passage in Ecclesiastes 9:12 is interesting compared to 1 Thessalonians 5:3:

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also does not know his time: Like fish taken in a cruel net, Like birds caught in a snare, So the sons of men are snared in an evil time, When it falls suddenly upon them.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

So, who knows. Maybe the dead birds and fish are a sign of the end times. Time will tell.

[Wally]

Birds, fish, and BEASTS.....

God doesn't do it part way so keep your eyes open.


Remember also we have been advised that many terrible things will happen in the future. Some will be false labor - birth pangs. Some will indicate the water will soon break. (I link that with the Rapture - the unexpected release just before the really hard labor)

But we must be careful not to confuse birth pangs, with events that are just a part of this corrupted world.

Matthew 24:5-7 (New King James Version)
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

Bear in mind the discourse in Matthew is a composite one, including near, later, and final events. It is deeply connected with the nation of Israel and their unique future. Mark has similar verses.

But there is a common command : Don't Worry.

[Not Perfect, But Forgiven]

All things were created by God, even science. The "experts" go into falsity when they try to use the creation to explain away or try to cover up the existence of the creator. the problem arises when, as usual, advanced science begins to reveal the creator rather than explain him away. This has always been the problem.

Modern science is no longer a practice, but a religious belief system. Many scientific methods and theories have been defeated and proven wrong, such as carbon 14 dating, macro-evolution, darwinism, and fossilization time requirements. However, if a professor comes out and says that, he will lose his pension, tenure and good standing in the scientific community, and be labeled a wacko. One cannot advance in science without discovering God, if even by accident. I live in Colorado, and there is evidence of Noah's flood everywhere. You can still find sea shells in the mountains. You can also find signs of water damage and erosion up there as well. My wife lived in a farming community for most of her life, and she told me about the many sea shells her and her siblings would find in the corn field. The funny thing is, when clams die, their mouths open. These are all closed, meaning they died in an aquatic event that happened very quickly and violently, like say...a worldwide cataclysmic flood.

Science has long known about all that the bible has been telling us. Bones of giants are found all over the world all the time. You never hear about it, because if a scientist announces this type of discovery, it supports what the bible says about there being giants in ancient times, and they could lose credibility in the scientific community.
Science has become a religion.

[Hootmon]

The other thing I am struggling with is the supernatural acts of God versus science. For example only: Some people argue that the recent birds/fish deaths are not a sign or warning from God because there is a scientific reason for the deaths. Does God not use science? Why does it always have to be science OR God.. and not both. So many people write off the possibility that it has to do with God if there is a scientific explanation for it. This drives me crazy.

Ask yourself, 'If that really is a sign, who is it for and what is it telling them?', then use Scripture to back up the answer you give yourself.

In the case of the recent bird deaths, there simply isnt any 'there' there, IMO.

[Hootmon]

Bones of giants are found all over the world all the time.

Really? Ever actually see one?

[Hootmon]

Birds, fish, and BEASTS.....

God doesn't do it part way so keep your eyes open.

Exactly. I imagine 'signs' being IN YOUR FACE. Not just a few semi-random 'dots' that need to be connected by those 'in the know'. That notion smacks of gnosticism of some type.

But we must be careful not to confuse birth pangs, with events that are just a part of this corrupted world.

[Raphael]

Sometimes God is in things, and sometimes he is not. When God told Elijah to stand upon the mount before the Lord, there was a great wind, and an earthquake, and a fire - but God was not in any of them. He was in the still small voice.

However, I believe that many things that have no spiritual component, including those in nature, can give us pause to think of Godly things.

[bleatingsheep]

Atheists like to say there is an irreconcilable conflict between science and religion. They say that faith is incompatable with the scientific method.
I dont believe this is the case. Good, true science will never contradict the Bible altough it may test our understanding to the limits.
There are a large number of highly qualified scientists out there who are also Christians

[HAWK71]

evil flourishes when good men/women do nothing.

no one is stopping you from speaking out, talking to neighbors, signing/starting petitions and the like.

go where the lord leads you.

and no, God & science aren't mutually exclusive, despite what some believe.

[ImOnStandby221]

atheism is the most unscientific philosophy out there. would a scientist try and write a periodic table of all the elements that don't exist?

[Raphael]

To follow up on that, I'll take the phrase "Consider the lillies - how they grow" from the above post. The meaning relates to God's care of us since we are more important than plants. But look at it another way: Just how DO lillies grow? I can't imagine why anyone could think that photosynthesis just "happened" naturally, and that seeds "bring forth after their own kind" just because it sort of fell out that way randomly. IMO, nature itself is already "miraculous" in the sense that it was created by God to develop in the complex and beautiful way that it does.

[pavelsmith]

Thanks everyone for their comments!

[IMSAVED]

I believe it can be both.

The Bible says that the whole earth, and all of creation "groans" under the weight of sin. It's been groaning since Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, and it groans even more now. Nature is not thriving as God intended it to, when He first created the earth. There's something wrong with everything, thanks to sin...... and it's getting worse just as our collective sin, faithlessness and moral decline worsens. So the thing with the birds and the fish..... while I take a "wait and see" attitude to see if they can find some definable reason for this (such as La Nina for example) - whether they find a reason or not, our dying ecosystem is ultimately the result of sin. Maybe it *is* an "act of God"..... but in my mind, He is in control of it all anyway, scientific explanations or no.

Whether God sent this as a specific "wakeup call", or as a warning of what's to come during the Tribulation, or neither, I'm not sure of yet (in my own mind). And yet, all of nature's troubles of late - earthquakes, severe storms, hurricanes, dying species, should be a wakeup call, that our sinful condition is hurting everything, even nature.

Maybe God is allowing these things so that we have more opportunities to reach out with the Gospel, to those who are troubled by them. So we should have God's peace that passeth all understanding within us, and be ready to give an account for the Blessed Hope that is within us, during these troubling times. Amen?

Well said

[IamHis]

There is a great movie out there called "Time Changer", you may have seen it. In this movie, the Bible professor is asked to speak to a science class. The class asks him how can they tell if the science is valid. He responds that they compare the science to the Bible, because the Bible is always true. That's a good thought.

[RosettaLuv]

When you think about it, science is actually man's interpretation of how the Earth works based on their own understanding. And since man's understanding can be wrong at times, so can science (like evolution and carbon 14 dating). So, I don't believe we will figure everything out and understand everything about our world with our finite and corrupt minds. Those who claim science as absolute are ignorant and prideful because we will always learn something new about our world, so our science will change. I think of science as man's "hypothesis" of how the world works; only God has the true knowledge of how the world works.

[HeIsEnough]

When you think about it, science is actually man's interpretation of how the Earth works based on their own understanding. And since man's understanding can be wrong at times, so can science (like evolution and carbon 14 dating). So, I don't believe we will figure everything out and understand everything about our world with our finite and corrupt minds. Those who claim science as absolute are ignorant and prideful because we will always learn something new about our world, so our science will change. I think of science as man's "hypothesis" of how the world works; only God has the true knowledge of how the world works.

Well stated.

The one thing to count on in science, especially in regards to origins, it will change as understanding changes. For all the smarts some have, they miss the obvious meaning and implications behind that truth, and needlessly perish over it.