Catholic "sign of the cross"?

[Genesis22]

I was raised Catholic up until I got saved a year ago when I started attending a non-denominational church.

Like most people on this site, I am against most of the Catholic rituals. However, there is one thing that I don't really see a problem with and everyone else here seems to. The sign of the cross (where they make a cross symbol over themselves). Why is this wrong? I mean, to me, it's pretty much saying that you're saved (kind of like saying "in Jesus' name" at the end of your prayer, but doing it like that instead). I don't usually do it just because I find it unnessicary, but it is actually wrong?

I understand that it's wrong in the way that they think that you HAVE to do it when you pray, and they do it when they kneel to statues or before entering a church.....But is it wrong if you just want to do it as a symbol of being saved?

[sunshine2777]

I dont have answers for you and I have never been Catholic. However, I heard in a bible study once (from a reputable pastor) that the sign of the cross started during the Crusades when soldiers/christians were sent out to kill other Christians who would not conform to the "church" and they would make the sign of the cross as they were killing other christians. I have tried to find more documentation of this and was referred to the book called "Two Babylons" but its a hard read so I didnt get very far.

Maybe w/ your question, someone else will provide a better source of this information if it is indeed true.

[Nightelf]

I've seen Catholics quickly "cross themselves" when they are nervous, frightened etc. and it *appears* like it's sort of a "good luck charm" along with kissing a medalion of a Saint hanging around their neck. If that's the case, that's not Biblical......

[Genesis22]

Oh yes, I understand that doing it that way is wrong. I'm just talking about doing it at the end of a prayer as a way of saying "in Jesus' name". I don't usually do it anyways because I would rather just speak....but I'm just wondering if it's wrong if you only do it that way. Some people here have seemed to be against it, but maybe they were only against it in the way that you mentioned.

[Shonsu]

I'm a former Roman Catholic and I am against it only because I am against everything about the RCC and their "traditions". Making the "sign of the cross" to me is kind of like mysticism or "casting a spell".

[Clouds]

I'm a former Roman Catholic and I am against it only because I am against everything about the RCC and their "traditions". Making the "sign of the cross" to me is kind of like mysticism or "casting a spell".

I agree.
Whenever I see someone making the sign of the cross, I assume they are Roman Catholic or closely related in their religious traditions.
It is a form of mysticism of the pagan sort. That was the impression I had when I was raised Roman Catholic. I'm obviously no longer a Catholic.
It irritates me when I see the popes using that sign to bless people and places as if they were some magician or great sorcerer.

[MartyN]

I've seen Catholics quickly "cross themselves" when they are nervous, frightened etc. and it *appears* like it's sort of a "good luck charm" along with kissing a medalion of a Saint hanging around their neck. If that's the case, that's not Biblical......

I'm a former Roman Catholic and I am against it only because I am against everything about the RCC and their "traditions". Making the "sign of the cross" to me is kind of like mysticism or "casting a spell".

I agree.
Whenever I see someone making the sign of the cross, I assume they are Roman Catholic or closely related in their religious traditions.
It is a form of mysticism of the pagan sort. That was the impression I had when I was raised Roman Catholic. I'm obviously no longer a Catholic.
It irritates me when I see the popes using that sign to bless people and places as if they were some magician or great sorcerer.

as another ex-catholic I agree with the above.

[tfcrew]

The Eastern Orthodox also make the sign.
Why find a problem w/that?
Expresses belief in the Trinity.

[Verisimilitude]

This is the biggest reason never to make the sign of the cross. If you were truly doing the cross of Jesus, you would be doing a "T", not a "+" sign. Think about it, the sign of the cross the rcc makes is a "+", like the cross of Baal. It took me years to stop making the sign, but I know the Lord wants me to honor Him, not Baal. As with so much of the rituals of the rcc, the sign of the cross has it's origins in paganism. Don't do it.

[Jacinth]

However, I heard in a bible study once (from a reputable pastor) that the sign of the cross started during the Crusades when soldiers/christians were sent out to kill other Christians who would not conform to the "church" and they would make the sign of the cross as they were killing other christians.

Sick.

[MartyN]

The Eastern Orthodox also make the sign.
Why find a problem w/that?
Expresses belief in the Trinity.

Why find a problem with false gospel?

[Buzzardhut]

I was raised Catholic up until I got saved a year ago when I started attending a non-denominational church.

Like most people on this site, I am against most of the Catholic rituals. However, there is one thing that I don't really see a problem with and everyone else here seems to. The sign of the cross (where they make a cross symbol over themselves). Why is this wrong? I mean, to me, it's pretty much saying that you're saved (kind of like saying "in Jesus' name" at the end of your prayer, but doing it like that instead). I don't usually do it just because I find it unnessicary, but it is actually wrong?

I understand that it's wrong in the way that they think that you HAVE to do it when you pray, and they do it when they kneel to statues or before entering a church.....But is it wrong if you just want to do it as a symbol of being saved?

Mithraism

http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/Mithros01.html

In the photo to the left is shown standing on a sphere (not the Earth) that symbolizes the Universe (Cosmos).
The Ancients believed that when the creator of the universe first formed the cosmos, he shaped its substance in the form of a cross, representing the intersection of the two celestial circles of the zodiac and the celestial equator.
This cross-shaped symbol was often depicted in ancient art to indicate the cosmic sphere. In fact, one of the most famous examples of this motif is a Mithraic stone carving showing the so-called "lion-headed god," whose image is often found in Mithraic temples, standing on a sphere that is marked with the cross representing the two circles, of the zodiac and the celestial equator.

The Mithraics were known to make the "Sign of the Cross" just exactly like the pagan christians and pagan catholics do today. Additionally, the "X" shaped cross appears directly in the center of many of the ceremonial crucifixes of the catholic church.

Mithraism

During the third century after Messiah Yahshua, The Mithraic, and pagan christian catholic cult churches were very similar both in appearance and in the character of their ritual. A majority of such places of worship were underground, and both contained altars whose backgrounds variously depicted the sufferings of the savior who had brought salvation to a sin-cursed human race. However, similar there were, also, differences. The Mithraic Cult was a cult of men called Fathers, and women were not allowed. This is in contrast to the Cult of Cybele which was made up of only women called Mothers, and men were not allowed. Of course, the Catholic church appears to have been made up of both Mithraic and Cybele cult practices. The Day of The Sun was held in high esteem by the Mithras.

It had always been the practice of Mithraic worshipers, on entering the temple, to dip their fingers in holy water. And since in some districts there were those who at one time belonged to both religions, they introduced this custom into the majority of the pagan catholic-christian churches in the vicinity of Rome. Both religions employed baptism made the "Sign of the Cross", and partook of the sacrament of bread and wine.

In the end, the nominal catholic-christian faith dominated Europe. Greek philosophy supplied the concepts of ethical value; Mithraism, the ritual of worship observance, and control; and Messianic-Judaism, as such, the technique for the conservation of moral and social values. Of course, these values only applied to the followers of the faith, while the leaders of the faith were at liberty to follow the MILITANT Mithraic doctrines.

Mithras was originally an Indo-Iranian god of contract and friendship, beginning around the fifteenth century BC. The Persians incorporated him into their system of beliefs as a sun god (Apollo, Zeus, etc...), but he eventually lost popularity to the religion of Zoroaster, which (supposedly) did not allow worship of pagan gods. From about 330 BC to 100 AD, there is very little mention of Mithras in Persian or Greco-Roman literature. However, in the early second century AD, there was a rapid resurgence of popularity throughout the Roman Empire. This was probably spread in part by the ROMAN MILITARY (A Soldier's Religion). Mithraism quickly became one of the most common religions in the Empire and did not start to decline until Roman Emperor Constantine's political support of catholic-christianity occurred around 321 AD.

The festival of Mithras' birth was December 25th (Julian Calendar), the winter solstice, and the rebirth of the sun's light.

Refuse pits accompanying Mithraic sites indicate that feasting was part of their ritual, and the drinking of the bull's blood; if no bull was available, other animals were used, or bread and fish were used as substitutes for meat, and wine for blood. They believed that by eating the bull's flesh and drinking its blood they would be born again just as life itself had once been created anew from the bull's blood.

Isaiah 1:11
11 "What are the multitude of your sacrifices to me?," says Yahweh. "I have had enough of the burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed animals. I don't delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs, Or of male goats.


Hebrews 10:4
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.


It was believed that the partaking of the sacrament ensured eternal life, the immediate passing, after death, to the bosom of Mithras, there to tarry in bliss until the Judgement Day. On the Judgement Day the Mithraic keys of heaven would unlock the gates of Paradise for the reception of the faithful; whereupon all the unbaptized of the living and the dead would be annihilated upon the return of Mithras to earth. It was taught that, when a man died, he went before Mithras for judgement, and that at the end of the world Mithras would summon all the dead from their graves to face the last judgement. The wicked would be destroyed by fire, and the righteous would reign with Mithras forever.

Mithras, after performing his deeds, was said to have ascended to heaven in a chariot of fire, to become the intercessor for the human race among the gods on high.

http://www.markbeast.org/mark-beast-paganism.html

The Pantheon is an ancient temple in Rome that was later converted into the Church of Santa Maria ad Martyres. Dating from 125 AD, this is the most complete ancient building in Rome. The Pantheon was dedicated to pan theos, meaning “all the gods.” When it became a Church, it was dedicated to the Virgin Mary and all the martyrs. The Pantheon is the burial place of several important Italians and it remains an active Church.
The statues of the “gods” from the Pantheon are now found in the Vatican Museum with the exception of the great statue of Jupiter, which has been modified, re-titled, and seated on a throne in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome as St. Peter. Thousands of pilgrims kiss the foot of Jupiter while thinking it is the statue of Peter and have nearly worn it away. Notice the sun wheel above his head? Note also that the pattern on the wall behind the statue utilizes the symbol of Baal. St Peter - Jupiter
Acropolis temples of Pergamum Following the conquest of Mesopotamia by the Persians, the Babylonian priesthood fled to Pergamum in Asia Minor. Here they erected the Acropolis temples of Pergamum in honour of the Greek Pantheon, but continued to worship the Babylonian mystery god under the name of Saturnus.
Many of the Babylonian mysteries were preserved in the temple of Zeus at Pergamum and transferred to Rome in 133 B.C. when Attalus III died without an heir and bequeathed his kingdom to Rome.

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general that Rome was called the “New Babylon.” Temple of Zeus at Pergamum
666 Solar Seals The origin of the number 666. In 133 B.C. the Babylonian solar cult was bequeathed to Rome by Attalus III. There its symbols and forms were incorporated into the cult of Caesar and later into Roman Catholicism. Note that the numbers add up to 111 for each row, column and even the diagonals, with the grand total of 6 x 111 equaling 666 for each table.
Winged serpent spirit, signifying the soul of the departed (Egypt). It is very interesting that in ancient mythology, the serpent was universally the symbol of the sun. Sun worship and serpent worship began side by side. The sun was proclaimed to be the source of all fleshly life and the serpent the origin of all spiritual life. Winged serpent
Winged serpent guardians Winged serpent guardians, King Tut’s throne, Cairo, Egypt. The religion of the serpent has passed down from one occult priesthood to another all the way down through the years as man was scattered throughout the earth from the time of the Tower of Babel. Remember that sun and serpent worship began together.
Mayan serpent sun god coming out of the mouth of a dragon was used in connection with the Mayan sun god ‘Quetzalcoatl’ on the Island of Cozumel, 1000 A.D. What do they represent? Revelation 12:9 “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth…” Mayan serpent sun god
Winged serpent on chariot Romans adopted the worship of the serpent as a symbol of power that carries the soul to heaven. In the Archaeological Museum in Rome, a sarcophagus of the dead has two serpents pulling a chariot taking these people to heaven. Rome also adopted this symbol of the serpent as the healer as have many countries.
Roman bath, in Bath, England. Notice the serpent as a symbol of healing.

Even the United States has adopted the serpent called Aesculapius in the medical field. In Greece, this serpent was the god of drugs and medicines, i.e., a counterfeit healer. Serpent as a symbol of healing
Serpent door handle Serpent door handle on the new St. Mary’s Cathedral in San Francisco, California. The serpent as we have already seen became the symbol of healing in many countries. It is hard to imagine a symbol that represents Satan on the door of a Cathedral. One would think they would have to know what the Bible says it represents.
Dragon on a large papal crest in the Vatican museum. Vatis = diviner, can = serpent. Vatican = The Divining Serpent. Knowing the meaning of the word Vatican no one will be surprised that the crest of the Vatican is “a serpent-dragon” The Bible says in Revelation 12:9 “the dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world…” Dragon on a large papal crest in the Vatican museum
Persian sun-god Mithra The Persian sun god Mithra was widely accepted in the Roman world prior to Christianity. Sunday was dedicated to Mithra (lord), receiving the title of the “Lord’s Day” Mithraism had seven sacraments the same as the Catholic Church. The Eucharist hosts were signed with a cross, an ancient phallic symbol which originated in Egypt, and the Egyptian cross (the ankh) still shows the original form which included the female symbol.
The Pope enthroned under a canopy with astrological figures of the Zodiac in the Vatican Museum. The sign of Leo is directly above the Pope’s head. During the Dark Ages, the greatest astrologer of all times, Nostradamus had to be cautious of the Inquisition which he narrowly escaped several times. Yet that Church had knowledge of the stars and used astrology. The Pope enthroned under a canopy of the Zodiak
Golden child in the Vatican treasury Golden child in the Vatican treasury, like so many other images of the child in Catholic Churches, is reminiscent of the ancient worship of Tammuz as a child. Born on Dec. 25, he represented the rebirth of the sun. As a pagan god child, he was called “Baal-berith.” Pagan Anglo Saxons called Dec. 25 “Yule” Day, which is a Babylonian word for infant. Egyptians and Persians celebrated the birthday of their god on Dec. 25th. Other names applied to the sun god as a child are Mithras, Horus, Isvara, Deoius, Jupiter, Plutus, Ninus, Osiris, Dionysus, Bacchus, Iacchus, Adonis, Attis etc. All these myths of child worship originated from ancient Babylon with Semiramis and Nimrod.
Mother or Mary worship is the most powerful and emotional phenomenon in the Roman Catholic Church today. This mystic cult is given credence by the multitude of accounts about supernatural phenomena involving statues, apparitions and healings.

Since Mary worship is found nowhere in the writings of the first Christians, it is evident that its origin is found in the universal adoration of the mother goddess all throughout paganism before the time of Christ. It was adopted into the rising Roman Church early in its history - some suggest after the 4th century A.D. Mother or Mary-worship
Serpent crosiers Serpent crosiers were commonly carried by bishops and high Catholic Church officials in the Middle Ages. They claim that the crosier represents the shepherd’s crook, but it can be traced to the divining staff or augur of Pontifex Maximus of ancient Rome who inherited it from the priests of Babylon. It is unrealistic to assume that shepherds of nomadic existence would use wooden rods with handles like the one shown or anything like it. Common sense would have them use something straight and not entangle themselves with when having to fight off wild animals. Thinking about plays representing the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, it is absolutely disgusting to see shepherds hold staffs other than straight wooden rods.
The pagan symbol representing male and female union. The wavy lines portray the female and were associated with the serpent, while the straight line is male and is representing the phallus. We find the same principles of male-female in the paganism of astrology, which is very much a religion of nature worship of which the sun and the moon are the predominant deities. The sun is usually the male and the moon the female (as Horus and Isis of Egypt, which originated from Semiramis and Nimrod her husband/son. See the origin of sun worship and Babylon.) Symbol representing male and female union
Poseidon or Neptune Adad, Enlil, Baal, Neptune, Poseidon and other “gods” of storm and sea were depicted as carrying tridents. It was symbolic of lightning.

Here Poseidon or Neptune, said to be ruler of the sea or underworld, holds the trident, which is traceable to the horned, hoofed sun god of Babylon who carried the trident or pitchfork. The trident is also a representation of the male-female symbol.
A cross on the altar of St. Paul’s Cathedral in London with four tridents in the Hindu fertility style.

Some dispute that Roman Catholic Church leaders incorporated pagan Babylonian religious practices into the Catholic Church but even Catholic historians admit it. Cardinal Newman in his Development of Christian Doctrine, pages 372, 373 says that the Church incorporated many pagan religious practices into the Church. He claims that the Church sanctified them and that made it safe to bring these practices into the Church. Cross on the altar of St. Paul’s Cathedral
Roman Catholic Madonna and child A trident projecting from the head of baby Jesus on a Roman Catholic Madonna and child image. This in fact originally represented Semiramis and Nimrod her husband/son. See the origin of sun worship and Babylon. Also notice the hand how it is displayed with two fingers and thumb prominent, another way of symbolizing the trident, a Satanic hand sign, symbolic of occult powers, also used by high Church officials and priests in various blessings invoking the sign of the cross by motioning their right hand with two fingers and thumb casually extended. It is also found in freemasonry of which origins can be found in the Catholic Church.
The old statue of Jupiter with its occult blessing hand is now St. Peter in the Vatican. As stated earlier, the statues of the gods from the Roman Pantheon can now be found in the Vatican Museum with the exception of the great statue of Jupiter, which has been modified, re-titled, and seated on a throne in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome as St. Peter. Thousands of pilgrims kiss the foot of Jupiter while thinking it is the statue of Peter and it has been nearly worn away from the many pilgrims who kiss paying homage. Notice the sun wheel above his head? You can also note also that the pattern on the wall behind the statue utilizes the symbol of Baal. The old statue of Jupiter
Pagan priests as half-fish sprinkling holy water Pagan priests as half fish sprinkling holy water on Assyrian temple laver in the Pergamum Museum of Berlin. One of the names of this god in Babylon and Phylistia was Dagon (dag=fish, on=sun). The most common ways of depicting Dagon are described by the archaeologist Layard, “The Head of the fish formed the mitre above that of a man, while its scaly, fish-like tail fell as a cloak behind, leaving the human limbs and feet exposed.” Layard’s Babylon & Nineveh, p.343
Dagon the sun-fish god, again clearly displayed with fish attire and mitre. Note also the carvings and diagrams of Dagon priests and their fish head hats alongside the Pope with his similar fish head hat holding the crooked cross of Mithra. The carving on the left shows the Dagon priests sprinkling holy water and is taken from the above image. Dagon fish god symbolism
Pine cone staff This pine cone staff in the Egyptian Museum Turino, Italy is a symbol of the solar god Osiris and originated in Egypt where he was their messiah who died for his people and whose Mother, Isis, was worshipped as the Virgin Mother. Osiris was the Egyptian counterfeit of Jesus Christ. The pine cone on the tree of life, slowly ripens the conifer’s female seeds, and in the later stages the cone opens up to release its mature seeds. This process symbolizes the seeding effect on other people and culture together with the expansion of consciousness.
Assyrian winged god with pine cone, representing power of regeneration, traceable to Tammuz of Babylon. Most paganism in history is traceable back to Tammuz of Babylon. His mother Semiramis, was the first Virgin Mother predating the birth of Jesus Christ by over a 1000 years. The Catholic practice of making the Sign of the Cross originated in Babylon as people paid homage to their messiah, Tammuz, who “died for the good of his people.” There love was demonstrated for Tammuz by making the sign of the “T.” Satan has transferred this sign for Tammuz into the Catholic Church, as they think they are making the sign of the Christian cross. Tammuz was the Babylonian counterfeit of Jesus Christ. Assyrian winged god with pine cone
Dionysus, the Greek god with pine cone staff Here the Greek god Dionysus carries the pine cone staff as a fertility symbol. Pine cones and pine cone staffs are very common on pagan statues and art symbols of fertility and regeneration. Children are always looked upon as extending the life of the human species. Therefore, it is predictable that the Pine Cone should be linked to the new life of the conception of children.
The largest pine cone in the world in the Court of the Pine Cone at the Vatican, Rome. Pagans have always coveted eternal life and have sought it by worshipping and revering many objects they find in Nature.

The Roman Catholic Church utilizes the pine cone just as any good Pagan religion would do. This is further evidence that Roman Catholicism is more Pagan than Christian. In fact we could say that Roman Catholicism is counterfeit Christianity with Paganism as its beating heart. Pine cones are common in Roman Catholic architecture and sacred decorations. Note how the cone at the Vatican is immature and therefore unopened, just the way they want it! The largest pine cone in the world
Pope carries a pine cone in his staff The Pope carries a pine cone mounted on his staff, the ultimate pagan symbol.

Since the ultimate goal of religion is the securing of eternal life, one should not be surprised that the Pope should be carrying the ultimate Pagan symbol of eternal life.
One of the most visible evidences that sun worship has continued under the name of Christianity. Look at the Pope with the symbol of “Baal” (sun worship) at the forefront of his mitre, which symbolizes the Dagon god. The symbol of the Dagon is in the form of a hat or mitre. Notice the open mouth of the fish at the top of the Pope’s mitre. The most famous temples of Dagon were at Gaza (Judges 16:21-30) and Ashdod (1 Samuel 5:3-7; 1Chronicles 10:10). Dagon was represented with the face and hands of a man and the lower half the body as the tail of a fish (1 Samuel 5:3-4).

http://www.christiandataresources.co...atholicism.htm

[onehappymeg]

I think the sign of the cross is just another sensual byproduct of a pagan cult. I was raised Catholic, and thankfully my grandparents put me in a Christian academy in the 4th grade. I accepted Jesus as my savior when I was 9 years old. From then on, I've always been "kept" by Him, and able to discern what was bad, even if I didn't have an explanation.

The Italian side of my family all were raised Catholics... some turned Atheist...although my father was just recently saved, so praise Jesus!

Thanks for the discussion on this. I love hearing what everyone else has to say.

[sunshine2777]

Wow Buz.. thank you so much... I am going to have to reread all that info. That is absolutely amazing all the pagan influences. I knew it was bad but not THAT bad. It is so far from the truth its amazing.

[lorenei]

The festival of Mithras' birth was December 25th (Julian Calendar), the winter solstice, and the rebirth of the sun's light.

Sadly a lot of the modern Christian holiday dates and traditions were adopted from paganism - "christmas" tree, "easter" eggs, the term "easter" itself, the date on which we celebrate Christmas... none of them have anything to do with the Biblical traditions, but I guess now for many people - even Christsians, they do represent Christian symbols For instance in countries like Brazil they have their own set of "Christian" holidays derived from local paganism, it's all very strange.

I remember at my DH's old job one of his co-workers who was one of those angry atheist types got extremely offended when he recieved a chain e-mail around Christmas time which mentioned Jesus... so my DH and him started talking about Christmas and such, and it turned out that the guy thought that the reason we have Christmas trees is because Jesus had one

Can't wait for Jesus to come back and restore the Earth and all of us to what everything should be like... so difficult to imagine what the world will be like when He returns because our world is so crazy!

[zoewmu]

I was raised catholic and am now a bible believing follower of Jesus. The sign of the cross doesn't bug me. I believe Jesus looks at the heart, not at the history of what a practice is. It's not a salvation issue.

Do I think it's necessary. No. Do I think it's sinful. No.

[Buzzardhut]

I was raised catholic and am now a bible believing follower of Jesus. The sign of the cross doesn't bug me. I believe Jesus looks at the heart, not at the history of what a practice is. It's not a salvation issue.

Do I think it's necessary. No. Do I think it's sinful. No.

It's like counterfeit money, would you spend it? (better not)
Would you throw your real money away with it? (hope not) or just give it to me

[Watcher_On_The_Wall]

Great question, great thread.

Catholic or not, so many things that become commonplace -- that we just don't always pay attention to -- with origins that we should question.

Ditto Buzz -- thanks for the research!