Who Are the "dead in Christ" who rise first?

[Nate928]

Yes, the dead in Christ are in Heaven, they await the resurrection of their bodies at the same time as the Rapture. The Church will live in the New Jerusalem.

Ok thanks. I was wondering, is this where Catholics get the idea of purgatory? I'm still amazed they even believe that..

[iSong6:3]

Ok thanks. I was wondering, is this where Catholics get the idea of purgatory? I'm still amazed they even believe that..

I'm not sure, I hope one of our ex-Catholics will be able to answer.

I do know that a wrong idea in Judaism (not from the Bible) is that a soul can be in some sort of purgatory-state for a maximum of 11 months after death. Some pagan beliefs also had a purgatory.

It could be that the Catholics - who have an incomplete understanding of Jesus's sacrifice and what salvation is - adopted the pagan ideas and then, of course, found a way to make money off of it by the selling of indulgences.

[Nate928]

I'm not sure, I hope one of our ex-Catholics will be able to answer.

I do know that a wrong idea in Judaism (not from the Bible) is that a soul can be in some sort of purgatory-state for a maximum of 11 months after death. Some pagan beliefs also had a purgatory.

It could be that the Catholics - who have an incomplete understanding of Jesus's sacrifice and what salvation is - adopted the pagan ideas and then, of course, found a way to make money off of it by the selling of indulgences.

Hmm I see. It's really hard to approach a Catholics about the end times when they have such different beliefs in some areas. I don't know how to break it to them that they're wrong! I just pray that they will realize it all in due time..

[Jan51]

Or does it happen so fast, maybe the dead in Christ disappears a half second before everyone
else?

Once I read in some commentary, can't remember whose, that the word "then" doesn't imply later in time, it just means "also at this time." I have no idea if that is correct, but it's an interesting thought.

[RandallB]

Hmm I see. It's really hard to approach a Catholics about the end times when they have such different beliefs in some areas. I don't know how to break it to them that they're wrong! I just pray that they will realize it all in due time..

I haven't had stellar success with the following approach but it seems the right thing to do:

Only talk about the Cross,
His payment for our sins,
Relate that there is nothing we can add to what Jesus did,
Importance of accepting His free gift into our lives,
Establish a Personal Relationship with Him.


End Times, Purgatory, Rapture, Creation vrs Evolution, etc, are not salvation issues so they are all secondary to the Personal Relationship.

[Buzzardhut]

Hmm I see. It's really hard to approach a Catholics about the end times when they have such different beliefs in some areas. I don't know how to break it to them that they're wrong! I just pray that they will realize it all in due time..

You have to pick your battles and discard secondary issues; if you can get the catholic to recognize and acknowledge what they are truly trusting in; are they trusting in Jesus' blood atonement for their salvation or are they trusting in confessions to the priest; prayers to mary; church membership, water baptism, or good works through their church for salvation; if you get them to see good works and rituals cannot save them and they must determine where they go before they die (since they do not have to wait til after death for God to decide for that would be too late.) then there is a chance but be sure most will grow very angry with you after that discussion; only sincere people who are convicted by the Holy Spirit and are willing to discuss further without anger or resentment, you will find, will become actual believers and rescued from the ways of Rome.

[Nate928]

Thanks guys that was real helpful! I'd hate to start an argument or offend someone, but one person I know who tries witnessing to people always asks himself this whenever he's doubtful; "what if nobody told them?" So I hope to get many opportunities to witness to people.

[Verisimilitude]

Ok thanks. I was wondering, is this where Catholics get the idea of purgatory? I'm still amazed they even believe that..

It's hard to give an exact answer, but it has to do with prayers for the dead. The catholic Bible has books in it that are known as the Apocrypha. Although these books are not recognized by protestants as being "God Breathed", catholics accept them as though they were. In the Apocrypha, there are prayers for the dead. We know that prayers for the dead are meaningless, because no one is escaping from hell no matter how many prayers are said for them, and no one in heaven needs prayers. The specific passage catholics use is 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

The roman catholic church in a brilliant money making scheme came up with the need for men to purge their own sins in a place called purgatory, where one goes to suffer until their sins are purged away. It is a place of great suffering according to roman catholicism and the clergy is able to lessen a souls time there by having masses said for those souls. The masses aren't free of course, they cost. I've bought mass cards many times in my life as a catholic. $5-$15 for one single mass and up to $25 for perpetual masses. Having these masses said fulfills the need for prayers for the souls of those in purgatory, and lessens the time they spend for the venial sins and other impurities they died with.

Thank You Lord for bringing me out of the false roman bastardization of the Christian Faith!!!!!!!!!!!

I have also been told by catholics that 1 Corinthians 3:15 confirms purgatory. Catholics insist it shows that one must suffer in fire even though he is saved and that place of suffering is purgatory. Paul says "to be absebt from the body is to be present with the Lord". Catholics ignore and/or twist an awful lot of what Paul had to say.

Around 1000 years ago, when purgatory was an HUGE money maker for the rcc, there was a saying that went something like this..."Drop a penny in the coffer and a soul springs out of purgatory". It's a bad belief which denies the forgiveness for sins and the finished work on the cross, and worst of all, makes Jesus' perfect, Divine sacrifice, incomplete.

There is a comment above that says purgatory is not a salvation issue. I disagree. If someone is relying on their own suffering, hence, their own works, in order to get to heaven, then they are not relying on the completed work by Jesus on the cross. They are chasing after another gospel, a false one and one that leads straight to the lake of fire. Either Jesus' death paid all our sins, or His death was in vain. This is tied to the false doctrine of confession to a priest. If it takes a priest to forgive you in God's Name, then you must keep going to confess your sins. It gives great power to the rcc, it takes from God the power of salvation and grants it to them! One goes to a priest weekly, confesses their sins and the chances are they will not die with more than a few unforgiven venial sins (try finding that concept in the Bible) on their souls. Therefore, an unspecified amount of time in purgatory for those sins unconfessed to a priest will grant one entrance into the Kingdom of God. And in all of this, purgatory and confession, Jesus at best is an historical figure shoved far into the background, Who gave up all His power to the priests of the roman catholic church.

Purgatory not a salvation issue? I think it's an essential issue of salvation!!

[Buzzardhut]

Ok thanks. I was wondering, is this where Catholics get the idea of purgatory? I'm still amazed they even believe that..

Actually they picked up a lot of their false beliefs from Dante's "Inferno" just like people think they know what Jesus looks like from looking at Michelangelo's Italian paintings; who painted Jesus and His disciples as effeminate sissies and angels as little chubby cherubs.

[Verisimilitude]

Actually they picked up a lot of their false beliefs from Dante's "Inferno" just like people think they know what Jesus looks like from looking at Michelangelo's Italian paintings; who painted Jesus and His disciples as effeminate sissies and angels as little chubby cherubs.

That's true. One thing is Dante was already a roman catholic who happened to be visiting Rome at the time that he was expelled from Florence. The rcc had given him the belief of purgatory 700 years ago. We do see purgatory and hell in light of Dante's poem, but the rcc corrupted Dante first. Dante, in spite of the fact that he was roman catholic, did condemn popes for things such as simony. It's amazing that Dante had the nerve in his time to picture pope Nicholas III buried upside down in hell, with his legs sticking up on fire.

Dante may have believed the catechism of the church, but apparently, he didn't believe every pope was a saint.

[RandallB]

......There is a comment above that says purgatory is not a salvation issue. I disagree. If someone is relying on their own suffering, hence, their own works, in order to get to heaven, then they are not relying on the completed work by Jesus on the cross.....

Purgatory not a salvation issue? I think it's an essential issue of salvation!!

Thanks very much for laying this all out for us. I made that comment above and you are very correct in what you say. I have not ever been really exposed to the purgatory issue and spoke from ignorance. Purgatory should not have been on that salvation issue list.

Sorry about that....

People really need to trust in the finished work of the Lord at the cross, accept His free gift of salvation, and develop a personal relationship with Him.

[Verisimilitude]

Thanks very much for laying this all out for us. I made that comment above and you are very correct in what you say. I have not ever been really exposed to the purgatory issue and spoke from ignorance. Purgatory should not have been on that salvation issue list.

Sorry about that....

People really need to trust in the finished work of the Lord at the cross, accept His free gift of salvation, and develop a personal relationship with Him.

No apology necessary! If you're not brought up with the doctrine of purgatory you can't truly understand just how evil it is and how it actually stands in the way of salvation. You are exactly right, people need to trust Jesus alone. Salvation is a "gift of grace, not of works, lest any man should boast".

[Buzzardhut]

That's true. One thing is Dante was already a roman catholic who happened to be visiting Rome at the time that he was expelled from Florence. The rcc had given him the belief of purgatory 700 years ago. We do see purgatory and hell in light of Dante's poem, but the rcc corrupted Dante first.

The catholics claim their belief in purgatory is derived from 1 Corinthians 3:11–15
Matthew 5:25–26 and Matthew 12:31–32 and from the extra book of 2 Maccabees 12:41–45

People really need to trust in the finished work of the Lord at the cross, accept His free gift of salvation, and develop a personal relationship with Him.

Yes but modern day brainwashing is just as heavy today as it was in the dark ages.

A belief in a final purification to come later after death not only obliterates a complete understanding of Jesus blood atonement but is satan's biggest trick he ever pulled on man - to put off salvation until later until it is too late.
It gives the lost the impression that their sins will be atoned for by themselves after death in God's fires rather than Jesus fully paying for their salvation on the cross, and they must believe and receive it before death or their opportunity is squandered.
They are being talked out of getting any fire insurance before death for they do not realize that they can't pay off their sins by themselves.

That is the warning catholics should know.

[ranman]

On a scale of 100%, I am 45% no they are not among 'the dead in Christ', and 55% a simple 'wait and see'. I think I am in the minority in that I think Isaiah 26:19-20 refers to the OT saints and the 'indignation' is the tribulation. I also think that when Christ went to Paradise he took the spirits of the OT saints to heaven where they have been and will be until then. When they are resurrected they will reign in Israel, and Israel will be the premier nation on earth for ever. At least that's how I see it.

I am no expert on this issue The explanation I like is the term "In Christ" refers to those who are united with Christ in spirit baptism. There was no spirit baptism before Pentecost and the Holy Spirit will not indwell believers like he does now after the rapture, so the term must refer to members of the body of Christ which is defined as Jews and Gentiles together in present church age.

This does not mean OT saints are not resurrected, they are resurrected during the 75 day interval after end of the tribulation period. They are the friends of the bridegroom. I am not dogmatic about this, but it does harmonize with the doctrine of positional sanctification. It is a foundational part of understanding what we are "In Christ" which is not always what we are in our practice.

References are from "Thirty Three Things; A Study of Positional Truth" and "The Seventy Five Day Interval" By Arnold Fruchtenbaum

[RandallB]

........
Yes but modern day brainwashing is just as heavy today as it was in the dark ages.

A belief in a final purification to come later after death not only obliterates a complete understanding of Jesus blood atonement but is satan's biggest trick he ever pulled on man - to put off salvation until later until it is too late.
It gives the lost the impression that their sins will be atoned for by themselves after death in God's fires rather than Jesus fully paying for their salvation on the cross, and they must believe and receive it before death or their opportunity is squandered.
They are being talked out of getting any fire insurance before death for they do not realize that they can't pay off their sins by themselves.

That is the warning catholics should know.

I have never looked at it as deeply as that. Thanks!

[ranman]

1 Peter 4:6 This verse expands 1 Peter 3:19 which is a little hazy about who and what was preached to the spirits in prison. This was a one time event and after Christ's resurrection it did not happen again ( Hebrews 9:27 which was written after the resurrection). I think these saints were resurrected in their spiritual bodies unlike Lazarus because their earthly bodies had already decayed. Also Revelation 4: speaks of 24 elders which could represent the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles. These elders are definitely people who have been saved.(Revelation 5:9-10). The wording in Revelation 5:8 includes the 4 living creatures but the song in verses 9-10 applies only to the elders.
So I think that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected with the Church at the rapture.

This verse is difficult to understand, but we do know that nobody could be resurrected from the dead to their incorruptible bodies before Christ because the Bible tells us Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
how can that be if OT saints were to put on immortality before the Lord?

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The only way 1Cor 15:23 can be true is if these people were resurrected back to physical life and then died again later like Lazarus.

[ranman]

I hope you dont mind if I muddy the waters a bit more...

There is nothing in Scripture that demands that the Two Witnesses be anyone you have ever heard of before.

I agree! besides that, Enoch and Elijah have been translated into their incorruptable bodies and according to 1Cor 15, an incorruptible body cannot die. So it is better to see the two witnesses as just two Jewish guys whom God raises up in the tribulation to be the witnesses. (Fruchtenbaum; Footsteps Of The Messiah)

Another thought to ponder is why everybody in the world is celebrating and giving each other gifts and high fives when the two witnesses are killed by the AC just like it's Christmas time.

I would think that the church would know about the book of Revelation and would not celebrate the death of these two end-time prophets. Kind of makes you think that the church just isn't there for the satanic festivities
But maybe that's just speculation on my part

[HeIsEnough]

The only way 1Cor 15:23 can be true is if these people were resurrected back to physical life and then died again later like Lazarus.

Not sure what you mean, the scripture you cite says plainly that things take place in an order, I don't understand the Lazarus reference as being needed somehow. Like you state, those "in Christ" are those from the church, not necessarily OT saints. One thought, the standard belief, is they are resurrected into the kingdom, it was their promise, to live, rule and reign on earth for one thousand years. The other, and less likely to me, is they are considered "in Christ" by virtue of waiting for Messiah, and they waited on Christ and are perfected with us, like the Hebrews writer declares, presumably to be with the church in the body.

[RandallB]

---

.....

I would think that the church would know about the book of Revelation and would not celebrate the death of these two end-time prophets. Kind of makes you think that the church just isn't there for the satanic festivities
But maybe that's just speculation on my part

If by "the church" you mean the Bride or the Pentecost - Rature believers, then NO we are not there, Guaranteed!

Some use the term "church" for Tribulation-Saints and there will be definately those around at that time.

[savedbygracethrufaith]

I'm still curious why they would not be considered "in Christ".
Or is it simply Scripture just does not refer to them in that way...

Yes, technically they were not here to see Jesus, but they were kept in Paradise of Abraham'm bosom, not Sheol.....because they were in Christ (even though He hadn't yet died), He did as far as God is concerned, being outside of time n all....

I guess I just need more Scripture to tie it together for me.

In the OT, Sheol referred to both Hades & Paradise. It wasn't until Jesus' ascension that the location was changed to Heaven.