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Thread: Who Are the "dead in Christ" who rise first?

  1. #621

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan51 View Post
    I believe in OSAS and I understand the difference between the dispensations, but I am not yet totally convinced one way or the other about if OSAS applies to the Old Testament/tribulation or not. My question is, how does II Peter 2:7-9 fit with having to keep your salvation by your works? Looking at what we know about Lot, he does not appear to be righteous. Why is he called righteous?

    2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
    2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
    One good thing about the Word of God is it never soft-soaps the personalities of the OT saints. They seem to have the same propensity to err in thier judgement that we do.

    To be fair to Lot, we must look at him through the lens of the OT setting his life existed in. We don't live in an age where we need to give a child of our own making to a dead brother under the levirite laws that existed then so as to not end his line of posterity. We look at Abraham as being guilty of incest for marrying his sister when the rule of not marrying close relations had not been given until the time of Moses.
    I only mean to say that since the Bible calls Lot righteous, we should accept it at face value as inspired scripture and not judge Lot thru a 21st century lense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ranman View Post
    ...
    I only mean to say that since the Bible calls Lot righteous, we should accept it at face value as inspired scripture and not judge Lot thru a 21st century lense.


    If righteousness was attributed to Abraham for having enough faith in the Lord to leave his home ans set out for a new land that the Lord will show him then Lot should be accorded righteousness for doing the same thing.

    I agree that only the Lord knows the heart and thru the Holy Spirit Peter called Lot righteous.

    He did sin. He pitched his tents towards Sodom, he moved into Sodom, but he was grieved by their wickedness and sat in the gate possibly trying to help the situation.

    He did offer protection to righteous strangers which has foreshadowings of Tribulation acts of faith.

    Righteous Lot and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
    Righteous Noah and his household were offered a way out of destruction.

    We don't hear of the righteousness of any of their households in fact quite the opposite but being in the household of a righteous person seems to have its advantages.
    Ya, It'll leave a mark.



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  3. #623

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandallB View Post
    Righteous Lot and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
    Righteous Noah and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
    Righteous Christians, those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, are also offered a way out of destruction. Maranatha!
    Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.

    Joel 3:2

    I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
    Righteous Christians, those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, are also offered a way out of destruction. Maranatha!

    Exactly!
    Ya, It'll leave a mark.



    Pre-Flood; Pre-Furnace; Pre-Fierce Anger (orgēn)

    How is that 'Times Of The Gentiles' working out for you, World?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeIsEnough View Post
    Originally Posted by RandallB

    Righteous Lot and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
    Righteous Noah and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
    Righteous Christians, those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, are also offered a way out of destruction. Maranatha!
    Although I believe that Lot/Noah foreshadow the rightous Israel flight to Petra rather than the rapture.

    But that seems to be the formula:

    Righteousness avoids Lord's destruction.
    Ya, It'll leave a mark.



    Pre-Flood; Pre-Furnace; Pre-Fierce Anger (orgēn)

    How is that 'Times Of The Gentiles' working out for you, World?

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    Default The Rapture of the church and tribulation saints.

    For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Thess 4:15,16


    My question is how can the believers (dead and living) be resurrected before the tribulation, when more Christians are set to die? The word says the dead in Christ rise first, during the tribulation there are going to be Christians martyred for their faith:

    Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:4

    Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. rev.20:6

    and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen Rev 1 5,6

    Is the first resurrection is the same resurrection talked about in the main rapture verses?

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    The dead in Christ that die first are all those members of the Body of Christ, also called the Bride of Christ, who have died before the Rapture happens, and does not include those who die during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation believers are not members of the Body of Christ, that privilege is reserved for those who believe during the Age of Grace alone. The tribulation believers who are killed for their faith during Daniels 70th week are the ones seen under the alter early in Revelation, who are told to wait until their number is complete.

    Don't get these two groups of believers mixed up.

    The Rapture is solely for the Bride of Christ, who are those believers dead and alive when Jesus comes to remove His Bride before Daniel's 70th week starts. This is the one that can is impending.

    Those who believe during Daniel's 70th week have their own resurrection separate from ours.
    I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18

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    This subject seems to confuse me a little. Does the Bride of Christ include OT Saints or is the Bride reserved for NT Saints only or both OT and NT Saints make up the Bride?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    Is the first resurrection is the same resurrection talked about in the main rapture verses?
    The First Resurrection has several 'phases'. Jesus' resurrection was the firstfruits of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PLN4287 View Post
    Does the Bride of Christ include OT Saints or is the Bride reserved for NT Saints only or both OT and NT Saints make up the Bride?
    The Bride are the NT saints. The OT saints are 'friends of the Groom'.
    Last edited by Steve53; May 2nd, 2014 at 06:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandee View Post
    The dead in Christ that die first are all those members of the Body of Christ, also called the Bride of Christ, who have died before the Rapture happens, and does not include those who die during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation believers are not members of the Body of Christ, that privilege is reserved for those who believe during the Age of Grace alone.
    Thanks for your reply sister!

    Take into consideration 1 Cor. 12:12-27, Ephesians 4:4-7 . The same spirit that dwells in us and sanctifies us and cleanses us, strengthens us, will be the same spirit in those tribulation believers, otherwise, their salvation is another type of salvation? Another function of the body of Christ is still the body is it not? This is where my confusion stems from.

    Isn't Salvation a product of God's grace? Whether some one is saved early in life or late in life, are they not afforded God's grace to be saved? (take Jesus' parable of the vineyard workers for example) I understand the idea of the different dispensations of how God revealed himself to us. Such as through the law, and finally Christ Himself, but does that fact necessitate the idea of we being more privileged than the ones who choose to die in Christ than to receive the mark of the beast?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sandee View Post
    The tribulation believers who are killed for their faith during Daniels 70th week are the ones seen under the alter early in Revelation, who are told to wait until their number is complete.

    Don't get these two groups of believers mixed up.

    The Rapture is solely for the Bride of Christ, who are those believers dead and alive when Jesus comes to remove His Bride before Daniel's 70th week starts. This is the one that can is impending.

    Those who believe during Daniel's 70th week have their own resurrection separate from ours.
    I read Ephesians 5:27-33 and I read Heb. 10:12-17 and I have a hard time separating the two "groups" It just seems to go against these scriptures and the whole Idea of Christ and Salvation.

    Take John 17:6-10, those people martyred for their faith in Christ are God's children, they are believers, part of the body of Christ. Part of the ones that are God's and are Jesus' and believed in the word that came to us through Jesus' testimony of the Truth. Revelation tells us they will be priests of God, reigning with Christ, just the same as us. (Rev. 1:4-6)

    Are all these scriptures taken out of context on my part? Even if they do not get saved until the tribulation, don't the benefits of being saved apply to them? They are still washed clean of their sins, they are still in dwelt by the Holy Spirit, weren't they still chosen to believe in Christ from the foundation of the world? Was Jesus only talking about the believers that choose him in "The age of Grace" and not in the tribulation? Is (are) there a scripture reference(s) that separates the groups of believers?

    Thanks for studying with me brothers and sisters in Christ! Grace mercy and Peace be with you until the coming of our LORD!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmon View Post
    The Bride are the NT saints. The OT saints are 'friends of the Groom'.
    Read Hebrews "Hall of Faith" passage (Hebrews 11) This passage I think sums it up (Hebrews 11:13) and again (1 Pet. 2:11) Peter exhorts US as believers who have received the promises of God to be Pilgrims in this Earth.

    The writer of Hebrews through the Holy Spirit puts believers in Christ on the same line of all the heroes of faith in the OT, and therefore part of the Body of Christ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmon View Post
    The First Resurrection has several 'phases'. Jesus' resurrection was the firstfruits of it.
    If it is several phases, how does that tie in with 1 Cor. 15:52? This imagery seems to suggest it does not happen in phases, but rather in a twinkling of an eye, one grand resurrection of believers. Have you any scripture that might clarify what the phases of the resurrection are?

    Jesus' resurrection is the first fruits, that paved the way and gave us the opportunity to believe in him and be resurrected as well. Again, what are some scripture references we can look at to see if he paved the way for more than one resurrection and at different times for believers?
    Last edited by Steve53; May 2nd, 2014 at 06:20 PM.

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    The tribulation saints are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that is only for the church in this dispensation.

    Also, the tribulation saints, unlike the church members can lose their salvation, by for example turning to Christ and then later taking the mark of the beast.

    Remember the Holy Spirit is removed with the church at the rapture and God deals with Israel and unbelievers directly, the period of grace is over, so no more OSAS and no indwelling for folks who finally recognise Christ in the tribulation.

    I think if you take this understanding as you read about the different treatments between OT saints, NT saints and the tribulation saints. Each came out of a different dispensation and the heavenly rewards are different for each collection of saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    Read Hebrews "Hall of Faith" passage (Hebrews 11) This passage I think sums it up (Hebrews 11:13) and again (1 Pet. 2:11) Peter exhorts US as believers who have received the promises of God to be Pilgrims in this Earth.
    The OT Saints believed Messiah was coming (Hebrews 11:13), the NT Saints believe He had come. Friends vs. Bride



    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    The writer of Hebrews through the Holy Spirit puts believers in Christ on the same line of all the heroes of faith in the OT, and therefore part of the Body of Christ....
    John 3:25-29

    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    If it is several phases, how does that tie in with 1 Cor. 15:52? This imagery seems to suggest it does not happen in phases, but rather in a twinkling of an eye, one grand resurrection of believers.
    That is Phase Two.

    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    Have you any scripture that might clarify what the phases of the resurrection are?
    1. Jesus's Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
    2. Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:52)
    3. End of Millenium (Revelation 20:5-6)
    Last edited by Steve53; May 2nd, 2014 at 06:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmon View Post
    The OT Saints believed Messiah was coming (Hebrews 11:13), the NT Saints believe He had come. Friends vs. Bride

    John 3:25-29
    That particular passage is John's reflection on how he prepared the way for Christ's ministry. To apply his statement to all of the OT believers is a stretch. In Luke 16:22 Jesus tells us the place of the dead was divided into two areas, one for the wicked and one for the people that would come to faith when Christ's work was complete (Noah, Job, Abraham etc. etc.), the ones chosen from the foundation of the world, I still do not see the distinction between the type of faith.

    Jesus went down into Hades and brought all the OT saints (believers in Christ, who had their sins washed and cleansed, and their soul purified, which only happens to believers, and a believer = the Bride, the body of Christ) to heaven, he defeated death, he set them free (Isa. 61:1) and this passage in particular Isa. 61:10 Isaiah joins the same imagery of a wedding (Bridegroom + Bride) with Salvation. The Bible tells us plainly Salvation comes only from Christ. Yet here, he is prophetically declaring the Bride of Christ are those who attain Salvation through Jesus, I still see no distinction of a special group belonging only to those who come to faith AFTER the cross and BEFORE the tribulation.

    These Bible passages are plain readings, How does the theology of a special group of believers fit in with these scriptures? Please help.

    How can one get into heaven except for being made righteous and pure by the blood of Christ? The OT saints and the Tribulation believers alike heard and believed the Gospel message of Christ and him Crucified and Resurrected. 1 Pet 4:6

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    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    That particular passage is John's reflection on how he prepared the way for Christ's ministry. To apply his statement to all of the OT believers is a stretch.
    My point was that John knew he was not one of the ones who was to marry the Bridegroom.


    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    In Luke 16:22 Jesus tells us the place of the dead was divided into two areas, one for the wicked and one for the people that would come to faith when Christ's work was complete (Noah, Job, Abraham etc. etc.),...
    Wrong. They were there because they already believed despite not yet knowing Christ personally (Hebrews 11:13).

    Jesus went there personally to tell them that He was Messiah they had been looking forward to.


    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    Jesus went down into Hades and brought all the OT saints (believers in Christ, who had their sins washed and cleansed, and their soul purified, which only happens to believers, and a believer = the Bride, the body of Christ) to heaven,...
    Your conclusions are faulty. The OT dead are still awaiting their bodily resurrection at the Rapture. Their current state in Heaven not yet 'clothed' in glorified bodies.
    The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
    Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
    (Psa 19:1b-2)

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    yehoshua - Welcome to RR!

    We merged your thread with other discussions we've had on the issues you brought up. It's long, so get some coffee and take your time. There is a wealth of good information here and should answer all your questions about what we, as Dispensationalists, believe, and why, with Scriptural support given.

    Obviously, if you're not a Dispensationalist we're not going to agree, and given all this information already provided, there's no need to reinvent the wheel.
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


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    Jesus + nothing = Everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Came across this, it might help clarify the issue of whether or not the Holy Spirit was given before the Church Age:

    37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
    John 7

    And this, just copying the first two verses of Acts 19 but as always, best to read it all in context:

    1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

    2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


    They were believers yet had not been filled with the Holy Spirit. This is not Charismaniac dogma, the supposed *second work of grace* - Paul asked if they had received the Holy Spirit (at all) - this is a difference in dispensations happening.

    If the OT saints had this precious gift at salvation, they would know it and have spoken of it and taught about it. They did not. The Holy Spirit came upon people to be able to do special tasks but He did not permanently indwell them as He does us - hence, OSAS.
    Hello fellow laborer in Christ!

    I agree in you saying the Holy Spirit was definitely NOT given since Christ had not yet resurrected, and the feast of Pentecost had not been fulfilled.

    However, when Christ descended into Sheol, He preached the Gospel to the OT saints. They believed and received then the Salvation, albeit after death. Christ partially fulfilled Isaiah 61:1. So therefore, they received the gift of the spirit, they received cleansing and washing away of their sins, they were made righteous by the blood of the lamb. They were accepted into the fold, and are part of the bride of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Nor will He indwell the Trib saints. They will have to endure to the end to be saved.
    Please review my recent posts merged from another thread by the friendly mods, I am interested in your thoughts on my studies, and how I am realizing the trib saints are a crucial focal point.

    If they believe the testimony of Christ, are they not Sons of God just the same as us? Take the parable of the worker in the vineyard (Matt. 20:1-16), the people who came in at the last hour, were still awarded the same wage as the ones who have been working for much longer....

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    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post
    Hello fellow laborer in Christ!

    I agree in you saying the Holy Spirit was definitely NOT given since Christ had not yet resurrected, and the feast of Pentecost had not been fulfilled.

    However, when Christ descended into Sheol, He preached the Gospel to the OT saints. They believed and received then the Salvation, albeit after death. Christ partially fulfilled Isaiah 61:1. So therefore, they received the gift of the spirit, they received cleansing and washing away of their sins, they were made righteous by the blood of the lamb. They were accepted into the fold, and are part of the bride of Christ.



    Please review my recent posts merged from another thread by the friendly mods, I am interested in your thoughts on my studies, and how I am realizing the trib saints are a crucial focal point.

    If they believe the testimony of Christ, are they not Sons of God just the same as us? Take the parable of the worker in the vineyard (Matt. 20:1-16), the people who came in at the last hour, were still awarded the same wage as the ones who have been working for much longer....
    Matthew 25:26-30 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    By your reasoning...if this servant was sent to outer darkness then he must have lost his salvation, thus the Holy Spirit does not continually dwell in him.

    But during the Church age, once you're saved you will always be saved...

    Hmmmmm....something is not consistent here

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    yehoshua - I typed out two fairly lengthy replies in response to your post to me and lost them both. I can't bear to do it again. Please, brother, read this thread first, it will answer all your questions.

    I have two more as well http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=158928 and http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=152655

    Please show me in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells the OT faithful. I know of incidences where He "came upon" people to do certain things, then He left. Bear this in mind too Acts 19:2. They had not even heard there was such a thing.

    And please show me in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells Trib believers. The "those who endure til the end will be saved" verses are for them. And bear this in mind 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. The Restrainer/Holy Spirit indwells the Church. He is removed via the Rapture when the Church is removed. How does it make any sort of sense that He would come right back down to indwell Trib believers, how is that different than the Church Age? If He is not removed, the AC cannot be revealed, the Trib cannot happen, the end-times prophecies are destroyed and that makes God a liar. Be careful with that, my friend.
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    yehoshua - I typed out two fairly lengthy replies in response to your post to me and lost them both. I can't bear to do it again. Please, brother, read this thread first, it will answer all your questions.

    I have two more as well http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=158928 and http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=152655
    Interesting reads, they brought more questions for me however, more opportunities to study and pray the Lord leads me in how he wants me to understand His word. so Amen and thanks for those threads!

    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Please show me in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells the OT faithful. I know of incidences where He "came upon" people to do certain things, then He left. Bear this in mind too Acts 19:2. They had not even heard there was such a thing.
    I see it this way. It is erroneous to say the OT saints were indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the Lord's first advent. The ministry of the spirit was definitely there, just not the same as after Christs resurrection and Ascension Hallelujah.

    My point is Christ went and saved those people from the time of Adam to the time of John the Baptist, all those who were looking forward to the work on the Cross. They were afforded the opportunity to hear the Gospel and believe. Christ went down to Sheol and lead the captives free. Just because they died before Christ died, that does not mean they are not part of the Church. See John 8:56. Jesus is plainly telling us Abraham came to faith in Christ, on top of that Abraham knew it was coming.

    Another passage that comes to mind is John 15, 16 and 17. These prayers from Christ at His final hours on Earth were not meant to a specific group of people. They were meant for Mankind as a whole. John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

    John 16:2-4 Christ is not only warning the Apostles, his warning can be applied to each and every one of us as well. He was speaking to the 12, 12 is a symbol of God's government, or I.E. the believers in Christ. During the tribulation, Christians (tribulation saints) will certainly be killed by people who are under the impression they are doing a public service to the antichrist, who will exalt himself as God.

    John 16:7-11 The Holy Spirit's ministry is to the world not only Church age believers.

    John 17:12 The security of the believer even extends to those who come to faith during the tribulation.

    John 17:19-21 Jesus here tells us all those to come to faith be ONE.

    All these scriptures and more declare the heart of God. He is concerned about the entire world, and sent his son to die for the sins of the world, so that all who believe, may have everlasting life. John 3:16 1 Pet 3:18-19 1 Pet 4:6

    John 17:24-26

    Christ is talking about all believers who will come to faith, who God only knows the exact number.


    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    And please show me in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells Trib believers. The "those who endure til the end will be saved" verses are for them. And bear this in mind 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. The Restrainer/Holy Spirit indwells the Church. He is removed via the Rapture when the Church is removed. How does it make any sort of sense that He would come right back down to indwell Trib believers, how is that different than the Church Age? If He is not removed, the AC cannot be revealed, the Trib cannot happen, the end-times prophecies are destroyed and that makes God a liar. Be careful with that, my friend.
    Very interesting point. I read Jack Kelley's study on one of the threads you provided me. Some of the conclusions made are suspect, I need more study on the passages he brought up.

    The main aspect up for interpretation is 2 thess. 2:6-7. It amazes me how God made sure to have this letter in the NT, he wants us to KNOW for sure what is going to happen and the signs to look for. It was elementary for the believers in that Church.

    The important note though is the fact the Holy Spirit is God, read Psalm 139:7-10. God's spirit does not leave a place, let alone the earth. This entire chapter is worth a read and meditation on what the Psalmist is saying. God's Spirit knows us, and when we believe, His spirit is the only thing that bring someone to Christ, and only as the Father wills Just as Christ told peter, My father in Heaven has revealed this to you. The people during the tribulation believe the same Gospel we believe, and are part of the ones Jesus prays for in His final hours on earth.

    None of what I am saying is making God a liar, We are both only a quest for His truth, and it may not be the same ideas, but it is God who is driving us to study and to love Him. Love is to be prized above knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshaff View Post
    Matthew 25:26-30 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    By your reasoning...if this servant was sent to outer darkness then he must have lost his salvation, thus the Holy Spirit does not continually dwell in him.

    But during the Church age, once you're saved you will always be saved...

    Hmmmmm....something is not consistent here
    Here we are at another well debated point in theology. . . . THe security of the believer.

    I believe the one God knows are His are His, without a doubt. They cannot be lost.

    Contrast that with passages that speak of Abiding in Christ, or risk being burned with unquenchable fire. The story of Being Grafted into a cultivated Olive tree. God did not spare the natural branches, how much more the ones grafted in from a wild olive tree? The point is, from God's perspective the believer in Christ cannot be lost, they are His forever. From our perspective we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

    There are many point of debate in any framework of theology, but the common denominator is Christ. We must remember to have His life and teachings guide us. This is true for all believers, and as long as we abide in Him, he will abide with us. If we don't, we are cast off and thrown into the fire. However, God in His knowledge, ultimately knows whose are his. We should not misconstrue his perspective and apply it to our perspective.
    Last edited by Steve53; May 5th, 2014 at 06:58 AM.

  20. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by yehoshua View Post

    Here we are at another well debated point in theology. . . . THe security of the believer.

    I believe the one God knows are His are His, without a doubt. They cannot be lost.

    Contrast that with passages that speak of Abiding in Christ, or risk being burned with unquenchable fire. The story of Being Grafted into a cultivated Olive tree. God did not spare the natural branches, how much more the ones grafted in from a wild olive tree? The point is, from God's perspective the believer in Christ cannot be lost, they are His forever. From our perspective we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

    There are many point of debate in any framework of theology, but the common denominator is Christ. We must remember to have His life and teachings guide us. This is true for all believers, and as long as we abide in Him, he will abide with us. If we don't, we are cast off and thrown into the fire. However, God in His knowledge, ultimately knows whose are his. We should not misconstrue his perspective and apply it to our perspective.
    - We will not threadjack the topic of the "dead in Christ" so this will be the last post here in this thread concerning OSAS.

    The members and this board firmly believe OSAS for those truly born again. Period. More on the topic -

    http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1159...ight=salvation

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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