How do people come to salvation during the tribulation?

[salemforGod]

The Trib saints will "have to endure to the end" in their faith/faithful works. It's not a works-based salvation, it never was. It's all about faith in Jesus's atonement.

So if you have a moment of weakness like we all do in this present age, does that mean that you're going to lose your salvation? What kind of salvation is that? Wash, rinse, and repeat? And isn't the act of "enduring to the end" similar to "working hard at it" which in essence adds to what God has already accomplished on the cross? Sorry, this statement really confuses me.

[salemforGod]

You're relatively new and must have missed our passionate defense of the Gospel as being all about Jesus and none about us, personally I must have said that 1000 times.

I can tell by the way you mischaracterize this position that you have not read carefully.

You still haven't squared your thoughts with just the Matthew verses or the Sheep/Goat Judgment, or used any Scripture to back up your position.

I am not a new Christian as I have been saved many years ago but I am new to the concept of "maintaining salvation" during the tribulation period. I take pride in the fact that Christianity is different from all the religions of the world in that our faith is based on God reaching out to us, and not the other way around. About the goat and sheep judgment, I don't think it's what you think it means, but I'll study on it further.

[iSong6:3]

I'm on my tablet, it's too hard to get across what I want to say.

Let's reconvene tomorrow, God willing, this is really a fascinating area to discuss and share from the Scriptures.

[salemforGod]

Okay. I'm sorry if I come across as rabid in my posts. lol I didn't intend to. I just think that God's way of saving mankind is the same all throughout history. Thanks for your insight, anyway. God bless!

[iSong6:3]

Check this out - Sheep/Goats Judgment http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=157138

[iSong6:3]

Okay. I'm sorry if I come across as rabid in my posts. lol I didn't intend to. I just think that God's way of saving mankind is the same all throughout history. Thanks for your insight, anyway. God bless!

I understand where you're coming from. We can get more into it when I'm not on this thing.

PS - You're right, it is - by grace through faith. The issues are:

1) Are Israel and the Church the same?

2) Are the dispensations the same?

3) Who is promised OSAS and why?

[HeIsEnough]

Great questions by iSong. Answering those in scripture sheds light on these things.

I agree though that the Holy Spirit will not indwell the believers during the tribulation period. I think that's the difference between the Church Age and the other Dispensation Ages. And that makes it harder for a person to believe in Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

I think the indwelling of the Spirit is far more beneficial than you seem to imply. In a very real way, the indwelling is the guarantee, a deposit of our inheritance that is given and never taken back. Those who hold fast to the Lord will always come out on top, whether in this age or the next. The difference would be that some today wander away, and the Lord always goes and gets them, and always brings them back. We know this because of the promises given to those who come to Him in this age, its to every member. We endure, because He promised He would never let us go, its all of Him. It was not that way with Israel, as we know many rebelled. If they had the same promises as the Bride, not a one would have been lost, and once the Bride is gone, it is gone, its membership does not re-open. Its a fundamental difference in promises. Those in the Tribulation are given fair warning, to endure till the end. Those who do, are rewarded. Those who do not, who will in all likehood take the mark, are forever doomed.

[Hootmon]

Those in the Tribulation are given fair warning, to endure till the end. Those who do, are rewarded. Those who do not, who will in all likehood take the mark, are forever doomed.

Agreed, though Id word the last bit more strongly.

Those who do not, who will in all likehood take the mark, are forever doomed

[Jan51]

King David pleaded with God not to cast him away and take the Holy Spirit from him due to his sins,

But is David concerned here about losing his salvation, or about losing his kingship? In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers, but He came upon certain people with power and anointing for certain purposes--like kings and prophets. Was David asking that he not lose the anointing of the Holy Spirit and be set aside as king for his sin, like Saul? Does "cast aside" mean permanent destruction, to lose salvation, to be cut off forever? Or does it mean (at least in some passages) to reject for a time, to throw or set aside, as in Jeremiah 33:26 and Hosea 9:17?

[Newbie]

What about king Saul? The Holy Spirit did part form him but in 1st samuel 28:19 Samuel clearly told Sual he would be with him and all his sons on the next day. Wouldnt that mean that Saul was going to paradise and was actually saved though the Spirit left him?

1 Samuel 28:19

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

[HeIsEnough]

What about king Saul? The Holy Spirit did part form him but in 1st samuel 28:19 Samuel clearly told Sual he would be with him and all his sons on the next day. Wouldnt that mean that Saul was going to paradise and was actually saved though the Spirit left him?

1 Samuel 28:19

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

What of those who rebelled with Korah? Moses even told them the Lord will show them who are His, and who are not. We know that Paul told us not all who "descended from Israel are Israel", it was always a remnant in Israel. Its not that we know one from another, some are obvious, we just know it was not every single one, like those a part of the Bride.

[RandallB]

What about king Saul? The Holy Spirit did part form him but in 1st samuel 28:19 Samuel clearly told Sual he would be with him and all his sons on the next day. Wouldnt that mean that Saul was going to paradise and was actually saved though the Spirit left him?

1 Samuel 28:19

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

I do not think that we can use this as a proof text regarding Saul's fate. The Lord revealed that the Rich Man was 'with' Lazarus in death. He could see him over the wide gulf. Saul did state to Samuel "the Lord your God".

[iSong6:3]

But is David concerned here about losing his salvation, or about losing his kingship? In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers, but He came upon certain people with power and anointing for certain purposes--like kings and prophets. Was David asking that he not lose the anointing of the Holy Spirit and be set aside as king for his sin, like Saul? Does "cast aside" mean permanent destruction, to lose salvation, to be cut off forever? Or does it mean (at least in some passages) to reject for a time, to throw or set aside, as in Jeremiah 33:26 and Hosea 9:17?

Good question.

From the context of the whole psalm, here is a broken "man after God's own heart" who realizes how he has sinned against God. He wants to be forgiven and cleansed from his sin, his joy restored and what he had before with the Lord. He doesn't mention the expanded issue of Zion until the last two verses in the psalm, after his heart is poured out about his personal issue. That's how I see it.

I realize it's such a verse that people (not you, Jan ) who have a theological interest in thinking OT David must have had assurance of being eternally saved (my MacArthur study Bible, for example) would say it must be David's worry about his kingship he's agonizing over, but I believe the context and content of what he says proves that not to be true.

In the OT the Holy Spirit didn't indwell people, He was "with" them or "came upon" them. David couldn't bear to part with even that relationship with the Lord he loved.

[iSong6:3]

The Great Pause
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

Surely you have heard about the administration (dispensation) of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. (Ephesians 3:2-3)

One of the most difficult things for someone unfamiliar with dispensational theology to understand is why Israel needs to exist at all in the last days, let alone rebuild their Temple. A recent discussion with a theology professor from a well known West Coast Christian school made this clear.

We were talking about our respective views of the End Times. When I mentioned the coming Temple and Israel’s re-awakening into their Old Covenant relationship, he looked at me like I was from another planet. He graduated from one of the main line denominational seminaries where he had been immersed in liberal theology, so what little he knows about the end times is all allegorical. He had never been taught anything like what I was saying.

Why on Earth, he asked, would God bring Israel back when the Church has replaced Israel in His eyes? And even if He did, why would He bring them into an Old Covenant relationship when He’s told the Church that since the cross the Old Covenant no longer applies?

Good Questions

Most Christians can’t answer these questions, and even among those who take the Bible literally, many can only say , “Because the Bible says so.” They can’t explain why it says so.

It’s only when you understand that the Age of Grace didn’t end the Age of Law, but only interrupted it seven years short of its allotted time, that it all becomes clear. Here’s what happened.

Near the end of the Babylonian captivity the Angel Gabriel told Daniel that Israel was being given 490 years to complete 6 tasks.

“Seventy ‘sevens’ (490 years) are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy (place). (Daniel 9:24)

When the Lord was crucified, 483 of those years had past. Remember, that’s why the disciples were astonished when He told them the Temple would soon be destroyed (Matt. 24:2). It’s also why, 40 days after the Resurrection, they asked if He was was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel now. (Acts 1:6) They thought they were only 7 years away from the Kingdom Age. Ten days later, on Pentecost, the indeterminate Age of the Church began, with the Age of Law still 7 years short of its prophesied end.

After 20 years had passed the Lord’s half-brother James, who was the head of the Church in Jerusalem at the time, explained that Israel had been set aside while the Lord took from among the Gentiles a people for Himself (the Church). After that he would turn again to Israel and pick up where He had left off (Acts 15:13-18). About 18 years after that the Temple was destroyed and has never been rebuilt. In 135 AD the nation ceased to exist in any form. The Roman Emperor Hadrian destroyed what was left of Jerusalem, built a new city called Aelia Capitolina on its ruins, and forbade any Jew from entering it. But the Lord’s promise still stands. As soon as He has taken the Church, He’ll turn again to Israel to complete the last 7 years of the Age of Law.

These facts from both the Bible and history completely undermine any arguments for the validity of replacement theology. They explain why Israel has to exist in the End Times and why the Jews will need a Temple.

The Great Pause

While Pentecost was the official beginning of the Age of Grace, it didn’t signal the end of the Age of Law, as so many in the Church wrongly assume. It was only a Great Pause while the Lord pursued His Church, something He intended to do all along, but had only divulged in a general way in the past.

Speaking to His Messiah, the Lord said, “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)

When you understand the Great Pause, lots of other things fall into place. We’ve already discussed the re-birth of the Nation and the re-built Temple. Israel had to be re-born and will have to become a covenant people again in order to complete their final 7 years. This is what makes their re-birth such a powerful sign that the Great Pause is about to end. The only reason for Israel to exist again is to complete the 7 years remaining in the Age of Law. It also explains the return to animal sacrifice during this time. This is the way things were before the Great Pause began, and the way they’ll have to be after it ends. Although people have always been saved by faith, during the Age of Law their faith has to be evidenced by obedience to the Law.

Understanding the Great Pause also helps us see why the Rapture of the Church has to precede the final 7 years. The purpose of the Great Pause is so the Lord can take from among the Gentiles a people for Himself. The Greek word translated “take” in Acts 15:14 is lambano. A look at the primary meanings of lambano reveals that the intent of the word is to describe one who takes something for the purpose of carrying it away. Once the church is complete the Lord will carry us away before turning again to Israel. This is consistent with Paul’s statement in Romans 11:25 that Israel has experienced a partial blindness until the full number of Gentiles has come in. The phrase “come in” means to arrive at one’s destination, as when a ship has “come in”. According to John 14:2-3 our destination is Heaven. Once the church has been carried away to its destination in Heaven the blinders will fall from Israel’s eyes, the Great Pause will come to an end, and Israel will complete its final seven years.

The Rapture has to happen before Daniel’s 70th Week can begin, because the 70th Week is all about Israel. It’s their final opportunity to be reconciled to God through the Messiah and prepare for the Kingdom He promised them so long ago. 2500 years before the fact, Zechariah prophesied that this would take place near the end of the 70th Week.

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” (Zech. 12:10)

Paul confirmed this and said it would happen after the rapture.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27)

And the Great Pause explains why post rapture salvation will be like it was in Old Testament times. The only difference is post rapture believers will be looking back to the cross whereas Old Testament believers looked forward to it. Speaking of the time when taking the mark of the beast will be required of everyone on Earth, the Lord said, [B]“This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”[/I] (Rev. 14:12) Again, people have always been saved by faith, but during the Age of Law their faith has to be evidenced by obedience to the Law.

It also explains why the 144,000 servants of God have to be sealed before undertaking their mission. (Rev. 7:3) If the church was still here they would be sealed just the way we are. But during the Age of Law believers were not, nor will they be, sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their inheritance as we are (Ephes. 1:13-14). The 144,000 is the only group in the post rapture world that is described as being sealed. By the way, some scholars believe this means only the 144,000 will be supernaturally protected from the demonic locusts spoken of in Rev. 9.

I Can See Clearly Now

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. No other system of theology explains God’s overarching plan as succinctly as dispensationalism. None gives us such a clear understanding of the connection between events before Pentecost and those after the Rapture. No other one helps us see the “why” behind the “what” described in the Bible. None other so vividly demonstrates the absolutely unique nature of the church, while maintaining the integrity of God’s promises to Israel. And best of all it does so in a manner consistent with the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation of His Word. 06-27-09
http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hama...e-great-pause/

[ranman]

i'm actually a bit torn on this subject. clearly, the generation alive that begins to witness the tribulation events will not pass and that is backed up by the timelines we've been given in various old testament prophecies as well as the NT revelation. what is unclear to me is whether or not the generation alive to witness israel's rebirth is what is being refered to here. know what i mean? the big Q is does the fig tree represent israel? if only we knew for sure.

Mark 13:28-30 (to include the parable)
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves [a new nation being born?] ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

compared to Luke 21:29-32
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

it's unclear. is he speaking of tree's in general?

one thing that may be noteworthy is that Mark was Jewish while Luke was a Gentile... i wonder if that played a role by way of to whom they were writing and also from what perspective they were writing. if this case is made, then it's perfectly reasonable that mark used the fig tree as a Jew to represent israel alone while luke refered to both the fig tree and then all the trees, like israel and then all of the other nations.

remember: not a single word written is by accident - they all mean something. and this surely must mean something.

thoughts??

BTW: so sorry for jacking this thread!!!!! 1,000 appologies!

There is a lot of internal evidence that Luke was not a gentile. He writes like a Jew. Two verses:

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

If Luke was a gentile this negates verse 3:2.

Also when you see Luke write that they went up to Jeruslem, or they went down from Jerusalem, this is the way Jews write not Gentiles.

I guess I hijacked it too. Sorry, just a small point I wanted to make.

About the fig trees, Israel is usually represented by the vine. If it was the fig tree what about the other trees?
Jesus might have just been making a point about watchfulness and being ready to the generation who is living during the time these things are about the be fulfilled.

[Jan51]

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

If Luke was a gentile this negates verse 3:2.

I would think Paul is referring to the giving of the Law. Compare Rom. 9:4.

[turalura]

What about those who did not respond to the gospel before the rapture, can they still be saved during the Tribulation period? I have heard that if they knew the gospel and did not accept Christ in faith, that they could not be saved later. I don't believe that.

[HeIsEnough]

What about those who did not respond to the gospel before the rapture, can they still be saved during the Tribulation period? I have heard that if they knew the gospel and did not accept Christ in faith, that they could not be saved later. I don't believe that.

Any who do not take the mark, and persevere in the faith till the (their) end, will go into the Kingdom.

[ranman]

I would think Paul is referring to the giving of the Law.
Compare Rom. 9:4.

Romans 9:4 is talking about the benefits of being a Jew, and making salvation for Jew and Gentile alike the same. The issue has nothing to do with whether or not Luke was a Gentile or a Jew.

If your point is Luke was a Gentile, the burden of proof is on you to make that case. The NT is also classified as scripture. If that doesn't make it the oracles of God, What does?

Also, in Acts 21, Luke is narrarating and goes in unto the brethren with Paul, and also the temple. The Jews mistake him for Trophimus, a Greek who Paul was with earlier. and cause a great stir. A Gentile would not have been allowed into the temple with Paul. Judge for yourself,

Peter called the writings of Paul scripture:

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[ranman]

What about king Saul? The Holy Spirit did part form him but in 1st samuel 28:19 Samuel clearly told Sual he would be with him and all his sons on the next day. Wouldnt that mean that Saul was going to paradise and was actually saved though the Spirit left him?

1 Samuel 28:19

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Samuel was the one who told king Saul that tomorrow he and his sons would be with him (Samuel), who was a saved man in paradise, so the issue was that king Saul and his sons would suffer physical death but would not lose their eternal salvation.