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Thread: Torah Keepers?

  1. #1
    Merrily Guest

    Default Torah Keepers?

    Does anyone here have experience with Christians who call themselves Torah Keepers?

    My son recently went to Colorado to visit a family member there and came back talking about these folks.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Evoo327 Guest

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    I'm not sure, sorry!!! But I am replying to this so that it will be bumped. I saw that it had no reply, so I'm hoping someone sees it that can help you.


    (just a guess, they sound kind of like a Hebrew Roots thing, though)

  3. #3
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    http://tktorahkeepers.com/

    this is what I found in a google search

  4. #4
    Evoo327 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mom2ten View Post
    http://tktorahkeepers.com/

    this is what I found in a google search

    Some quotes from their Statement of Faith page:

    "We believe that Yeshua came to make it possible for us to enter again into the covenant and not to free us from it."

    "We believe that all believers in Yeshua are called to become the body of Mashiach through the keeping of the Torah."

    "We believe that those who keep the Torah to escape hell or to gain heaven are still under the law. Those who keep Torah out of genuine love for Elohim without thought of reward or punishment are living out the true spirit of the law."

    "We believe that Elohim has called us to restore the teaching and practice of Torah among believers in Yeshua HaMashiach that they may again embody the image of Elohim in the world and become a light of hope for the nations."



    I imagine this thread will be moved to the Modern Cults section, soon enough. Defintely seems that way to me!

    And I would advise your son against it, if he was interested, for sure.

  5. #5
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    Yep, Evoo, here we are in cults.

    Here's their full Statement of Horrors:

    http://tktorahkeepers.com/statement-of-faith/

    Merrily - Is this group what your son meant? Is he interested in them? (They can be quite bequiling, like an *angel of light*...)
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrily View Post
    Does anyone here have experience with Christians who call themselves Torah Keepers?

    My son recently went to Colorado to visit a family member there and came back talking about these folks.

    Thanks.
    I was a member of a Torah-keeping Messianic congregation in Denver, Colorado from 1983-1991. Most of the congregation were Gentiles (I would guess about 85% Gentile).

    Was the talk "positive" or "negative"? Just wondering.

    Interesting site iSong. That is basically the "type" of statement of faith they used, but I really never saw a Statement of Faith. I do know that this congregation belonged to the MJAA and the UMJC.

  7. #7
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    Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture [Torah] has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    (Gal 3:21-27)
    The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
    Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
    (Psa 19:1b-2)

  8. #8
    Merrily Guest

    Default I am very upset, heart broken in fact

    My son went to visit his uncle in Colorado. My brother is a former presbyterian minister who has lost all faith in any established church. My brother is a christian, has even been baptised as an adult by a baptist preacher in kentucky, but is living with these people who call themselves torah keepers.

    Tommy came home and now will not eat anything unclean. Unclean is anything that is not torah and not organic. He denies the heritage of the Jewish people, says the rapture is the work of catholics, and quit his job at a ruby tuesdays because he cannot serve unclean food to people.

    I tried to be patient, but I am sorry to say with emotional stress I am already under I ended up throwing him out of my house. It is a mess.

  9. #9
    Evoo327 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrily View Post
    My son went to visit his uncle in Colorado. My brother is a former presbyterian minister who has lost all faith in any established church. My brother is a christian, has even been baptised as an adult by a baptist preacher in kentucky, but is living with these people who call themselves torah keepers.

    Tommy came home and now will not eat anything unclean. Unclean is anything that is not torah and not organic. He denies the heritage of the Jewish people, says the rapture is the work of catholics, and quit his job at a ruby tuesdays because he cannot serve unclean food to people.

    I tried to be patient, but I am sorry to say with emotional stress I am already under I ended up throwing him out of my house. It is a mess.
    Oh, dear!!! praying for you and for him!!! I'm so sorry. How long ago was this?


    (wierd that he says the rapture is the work of the Catholics-- all Catholics I know believe that it's hokey)


    EDIT: OOPS!! Forgot to say I was praying for your brother, too!!!
    Last edited by Evoo327; July 24th, 2011 at 07:03 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrily View Post
    My son went to visit his uncle in Colorado. My brother is a former presbyterian minister who has lost all faith in any established church. My brother is a christian, has even been baptised as an adult by a baptist preacher in kentucky, but is living with these people who call themselves torah keepers.

    Tommy came home and now will not eat anything unclean. Unclean is anything that is not torah and not organic. He denies the heritage of the Jewish people, says the rapture is the work of catholics, and quit his job at a ruby tuesdays because he cannot serve unclean food to people.

    I tried to be patient, but I am sorry to say with emotional stress I am already under I ended up throwing him out of my house. It is a mess.
    Your entire family needs prayer. Apparently your brother has fallen into the deception of a very extreme group of torah keepers and has allowed his nephew (your son) to be ensnared into this same deception.

    Do you know the name of this group? How long has your brother been living with them? How old is your son? Does your family attend a Bible-believing, Christ-centered church? If so, I would ask them to pray for your situation...also, you might want to discuss this with your pastor.

    Here's a great website where you can get some good information about the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism movement. There are some excellent testimonies of people who have been involved with HRM/MJ and came out. I was involved with a torah keeping Messianic congregation in Denver, Colorado...but they were not as radical and extreme as you describe. Here's the link to that site:

    http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/

    Hope that helps!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrily View Post
    My son went to visit his uncle in Colorado. My brother is a former presbyterian minister who has lost all faith in any established church. My brother is a christian, has even been baptised as an adult by a baptist preacher in kentucky, but is living with these people who call themselves torah keepers.

    Tommy came home and now will not eat anything unclean. Unclean is anything that is not torah and not organic. He denies the heritage of the Jewish people, says the rapture is the work of catholics, and quit his job at a ruby tuesdays because he cannot serve unclean food to people.

    I tried to be patient, but I am sorry to say with emotional stress I am already under I ended up throwing him out of my house. It is a mess.
    (((Merrily))) - That's heart-breaking to read.

    But God can deliver your son and brother from this. Please see the site that LindaR recommended, it's full of wonderful information and as LindaR said, of testimonies of people who got out.

    You may want to post a prayer request, too, we have mighty prayer warriors who will stand with you.
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

  12. #12
    Merrily Guest

    Default thank you all so much

    thank you all so much. what would i do without this site.

    my brother has been living with these people since last november. he has been through a lot and i think he doesn't want to see it for what it is. my son came home from his visit to colorado this past week. my son is 20 years old and has a good head on his shoulders, but as a young christian he is seeking a way to live out his new faith. he was baptised at the calvary chapel i attend last summer and has been attending a calvary chapel on the college campus where he lives and goes to school.

    it is just one of those things we all have to watch out for. i know i probably over reacted, but i felt the need to really make my point with him and with other things going on in my life it was more than i could take. he and i have been texting back and forth all day. he is at his fathers. there is so much darkness masquerading as light. it seems like everyday there is something else weird to deal with. it is exhausting.

    i have spoken with other members of my family and we will all work on it together. thank you for all of your prayer it all helps. i sent angry texts to my brother in colorado today and he texted me this evening that he will call me tomorrow.

    i will try to deal with him with truth in love. thank you all again. i am very greatful to all of you.

  13. #13
    Merrily Guest

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    the brother i have been talking about that is in colorado was an ordained presbyterian minister, pca, and has traveled all over the world as a missionary, upset with the hypocrisy and other nonsense going on in the church he left it, he has friends all over the world and as i mentioned before was baptised (immersion) by a baptist preacher from kentucky.

    he has suffered through some very hard personal things including a divorce and i think that it has a lot to do with what is going on with him. darkness will do it's best to put us all through the wringer. i knew that the people he was living with were different, but he did not tell me the whole story. if he had, i would not have encouraged my son to go there, and i would have tried to prepare him mentally. either way....i was initially floored....but i have my head together now and will pray and stand firm in the truth with my son.

  14. #14

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    I would be beside myself if someone lured my son into something like that, so your reaction might be mild (mine might involve rage and fury), be very careful with your brother Merrily. If it were me, my next talk with my brother would lay it all out, asking what and why is he involved with a group like this, they are extremely spiritually dangerous.
    Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.

    Joel 3:2

    I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

  15. #15
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    Default "Torah Keepers" may not be an organized group

    Quote Originally Posted by Merrily View Post
    Does anyone here have experience with Christians who call themselves Torah Keepers?

    My son recently went to Colorado to visit a family member there and came back talking about these folks.

    Thanks.
    Hi Merrily,

    I'm the one with the site to which you were referred, www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com .

    I just want to encourage you to walk in confidence in the Gospel and love your son well as you proceed. From what I've observed, the longer he's into the Law 'keeping' paradigm, the harder it will be for him to get out.

    As the title of my post says, 'Torah Keepers' may not be an organized group; Torah pursuant folks are often in small fellowships and many draw their doctrines from a variety of sources, making them very hard to pin down, doctrinally. If you can find out some online sources for what your son has been exposed to, that would be helpful, but you may find him saying things like, "I'm not following the teachings of man - this is just what the Word says!"

    And that, my friend, is where most of the battle will be fought. Law 'keepers' systematically go about redefining Biblical terms so that what we clearly see as supporting the Gospel and the Law becoming obsolete for those in Christ they will take to support the 'keeping' of the Law. For them, salvation is the starting point - that righteousness comes via the Law, taking the job of sanctification away from the Holy Spirit and putting it in man's hands, making the maintainintence of their salvation their responsibility.

    In reality, the Law does have a purpose after the Cross, to point to Christ, just as it did before the Cross. The difference is that God was keeping a people set apart and protected via Mosaic Covenant Law with its many requirements until the Seed should come. He has come! While the Law still points to Christ, God sets His people apart by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, not via the keeping of Law. The practicalities of a Gospel-centered vs. a Law-centered paradigm are clear: The Law separates a people from the world, the Gospel tells us to go out into all the world to preach the Gospel - to be in the world but not of it. That's a totally different concept than Israel was accustomed to under the Law!

    The result of a believer who has taken on Torah pursuance is a believer that turns their focus inward (to all the stuff they have to do to be holy) and to an isolationist mentality and not outward (to love God and love others with the spreading of the Gospel in mind). Self-righteousness and the fruit of 'self' grows, and the Fruits of the Spirit fade.

    Your exactly the kind of person I put JGIG together for; for those who have had the HRM/MJism cross their path, either personally or through family members or friends. Make use of the tabs at the top of the site - most have drop-down menus with lots of info and resources to help get you up to speed with what you're dealing with. Under the 'Post Index' tab is an index of posts at JGIG listed three ways, and most titles have key buzz words you're sure to hear from your son, so you can hopefully find info you need about particular points of discussion with him. The 'Glossary' and 'Articles' tabs have lots of info, and the first category under the 'Good Links' tab has a bunch of study resources/tools available.

    The main point that I wanted to make with this post is that HRM/MJism is a very mixed bag. The best thing to do is stay rooted in the Gospel and continue to ground yourself in who you are IN CHRIST and communicate that truth as much as you can to your son (and brother, if God opens that door). Because who we are in Christ determines our relationship to Law, whether one considers themselves Israel or not.

    There are a million rabbit trails in the Law 'keeping' world, and the temptation is to get it all figured out. But stick to the core issues of the faith, for it is there where belief systems stand or fall. I don't even argue with folks about whether they want to celebrate (notice I did not say 'observe' because they cannot be observed the way God comanded today) feasts, days, dietary laws, etc. because those things are a matter of conscience for some, and in the spirit of Romans 14, we are to show deference to one another in love. But on the core issues of the Gospel - those are the things where we must take a stand.

    Blessings and prayers as you go,
    -JGIG
    Last edited by iSong6:3; July 25th, 2011 at 04:24 PM.

  16. #16
    Merrily Guest

    Default Thank you



    I bookmarked your site and sent it to my son. I planned to do pretty much what you are suggesting. I have been having these sorts of discussions with him via texting and email, better than in person for right now, until things blow over a bit.

    I do intend to get to the bottom of it with my brother when I can do it without blowing a gasket.

    I thank the Lord that all of you are here, and that I had somewhere to go to find help. I am not saying anything against prayer, boy do I rely on that, but you know what I mean.

  17. #17
    Merrily Guest

    Default

    i spoke to my brother earlier this evening and pretty much wanted an explanation. he claimed to be surprised by my son's behavior and insisted that no one there had encouraged him in such a way. he also put emphasis on the fact that my son is not a child and is free to think for himself. he said that the people he associates with do not belong to a group or church and that it had nothing to do with the hebrew roots movement. he said he has been all over the world and seen corruption and abuse among christians. these people are simply living out their faith. what's wrong with that?

    i told him i had heard enough from my son to gather info to the contrary. and what he had to say sounded like a good job of washing his hand of responsibility to me. my brother is much more experienced and learned than i am so i new i was already outmatched if i tried to argue with him. some of the things he said echoed what i had read in posts here and at the website on these groups. in my opinion it was a half baked apology.

    i controlled my temper. i know what i heard from my son. the damage is done. now i will just have to help my son how ever i can. being mad isn't going to help.

    i don't know what my brothers purpose will be with those people. he needed to get away from where he was, to decompress from personal things, and it seemed like a good idea at the time. he has benefited in many ways. what will come of it i don't know. he is no babe in the woods. i know that God works all things for the good of those who love Him.

    i put my trust in God, for my son it can be a learning experience, for me too. i will continue to pray and educate myself. forewarned is forearmed right?

    thanks for listening.

  18. #18
    Merrily Guest

    Default update

    i got a call from my brother in colorado this evening. i didn't know where the conversation was going to go, but was ready to be patient and deal with whatever. well, i was shocked. he is leaving colorado. he called to truly apologize and say that there was something to the intuition that i had and that he cannot stay with the people he has been living with.

    he still does not feel they are part of a cult. they believe in the sufficiency of Christ for salvation, but the way they are living is not in the Spirit. the way they treat one another, which i feel is because of their emphasis on the law, is not edifying but destructive.

    there was a lot more to what he had to say, but i was so happy. he is a very smart man i couldn't bear to see him dragged down and lost among people more focused on keeping 'the commandments or the torah' and tearing each other up, than on sharing the Gospel. don't get me wrong, i believe we should be changing our lives, but there is a difference in what happens to people when they begin to use the commandments as a club or as new chains. and we are to be a light to the world not building bunkers to hide.

    the Lord is preparing each of us for what is coming and how he will want to use us. i feel it every day. i don't know what we will have to go through before He comes for us, but i pray that i will have the strength for what ever it is.

    thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. the Lord is moving all over the place. i feel so strongly that a line is being drawn in the sand. that is the only way i can describe it.

    i haven't spoken to my son since the blow out. i am not worried about it. to me i made a stand that day for the Gospel. he and i will talk about it eventually, we have always had a good relationship and there is something we can learn from all of this.



  19. #19
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    Oh Merrily, thanks for thinking of us to update about your brother! My heart is dancing and thanking God with you! Wonderful, wonderful news...

    Maybe your brother can talk to your son, ask forgiveness to him also and explain the same things?

    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrily View Post
    i got a call from my brother in colorado this evening. i didn't know where the conversation was going to go, but was ready to be patient and deal with whatever. well, i was shocked. he is leaving colorado. he called to truly apologize and say that there was something to the intuition that i had and that he cannot stay with the people he has been living with.

    he still does not feel they are part of a cult. they believe in the sufficiency of Christ for salvation, but the way they are living is not in the Spirit. the way they treat one another, which i feel is because of their emphasis on the law, is not edifying but destructive.

    there was a lot more to what he had to say, but i was so happy. he is a very smart man i couldn't bear to see him dragged down and lost among people more focused on keeping 'the commandments or the torah' and tearing each other up, than on sharing the Gospel. don't get me wrong, i believe we should be changing our lives, but there is a difference in what happens to people when they begin to use the commandments as a club or as new chains. and we are to be a light to the world not building bunkers to hide.

    the Lord is preparing each of us for what is coming and how he will want to use us. i feel it every day. i don't know what we will have to go through before He comes for us, but i pray that i will have the strength for what ever it is.

    thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. the Lord is moving all over the place. i feel so strongly that a line is being drawn in the sand. that is the only way i can describe it.

    i haven't spoken to my son since the blow out. i am not worried about it. to me i made a stand that day for the Gospel. he and i will talk about it eventually, we have always had a good relationship and there is something we can learn from all of this.


    I just saw this. Yay! I'll be praying for your brother - that God would grant him wisdom and discernment, grace and love as he sorts through much personal and theological stuff, and for your son, that God's grace and love would wash over him and that God would guard your relationship with your son.

    Thanks for your encouraging follow-up!

    Every blessing,
    -JGIG

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