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Thread: The Last Trumpet

  1. #1
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    Default The Last Trumpet

    I Cor. 15 :52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    What is the last trumpet? Why do some people say the last trumpet doesn't sound till after the tribulation? Will the unsaved also hear the last trumpet?

    Could anyone shed more light on "the last trumpet"?

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    this refers to the rapture of the church. I am not sure if the unsaved hear it or not.

    you may be confusing this with the trumpet judgments during the tribulation although they happen before the end. They are right before the bowl judgments.
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

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    For what its worth; I Thess. was written in 55 AD and Rev. was written in 95AD. So it was 40 yrs after Paul wrote about the last trumpet, that the 7 trumpet judgements info was written by John. Also, I doubt that Paul had access to any of the Gospels yet - they would have been 'hot off the presses'! So He would not have known about the trumpet in Matt. 24 either.

    When did Saul become Paul??? Wouldn't it had been after Jesus ascended into heaven? So he was an enemy of God the whole time Jesus was on earth.
    So however Paul got this info about a trumpet being used as part of the rapture and not knowing that there are going to be trumpets used to announce the judgements; the trumpet used at the rapture probably would have been considered as 'the last one' by Paul.

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    hmmmmm, where would I find more info on the last trumpet?

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    Only the Bride is raptured...

    OT saints & Trib saints are resurrected at the 2nd coming.

    Two different events, three different groups of people.
    I accept nothing from man as truth...
    only that, One is the truth. (John 14-6)

    Pre-Flood/Pre-Trib (Genesis 5-24)

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    Look up the greek definition to "last". One of the definitions is "ends of": It is an 'Ending' trumpet. An ending for the Church on earth.

    Look at I Cor. 15 & I Thess. 4 again. Ask this Q. What is the purpose of the sounding / blowing of this Trumpet? Is there any statements in regards to the 7th Trumpet as recorded in Rev.? Is there any hint of a judgement from God?
    - None!

    The NIV adds the word "CALL" to the I Thess. 4 passage: ..."the trumpet CALL of God"
    The trumpet in I Cor. & I Thess. is EXCUSIVELY to wake the dead in Christ, and to alert those who are alive that the rapture is about to begin.

    In Matt. 24: 31 That trumpet happens after vs 30 (Rev 19 - Christ's coming on His white horse). (This Matt 24 trumpet isn't the '7th trumpet' either). You would think that this would have been a good place for Matthew to use the word '"last" with "trumpet" - but He didn't. I wouldn't get too hung up on the word "last".

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    Quote Originally Posted by cts racing View Post
    Look up the greek definition to "last". One of the definitions is "ends of": It is an 'Ending' trumpet. An ending for the Church on earth.

    Look at I Cor. 15 & I Thess. 4 again. Ask this Q. What is the purpose of the sounding / blowing of this Trumpet? Is there any statements in regards to the 7th Trumpet as recorded in Rev. Is there any hint of a judgement from God?
    - None!

    The NIV adds the word "CALL" to the I Thess. 4 passage: ..."the trumpet CALL of God"
    The trumpet in I Cor. & I Thess. is EXCUSIVELY to wake the dead in Christ, and to alert those who are alive that the rapture is about to begin.

    In Matt. 24: 31 That trumpet happens after vs 30 (Rev 19 - Christ's coming on His white horse). (This Matt 24 trumpet isn't the '7th trumpet' either). You would think that this would have been a good place for Mattew to use the word '"last" with "trumpet" - but He didn't. I wouldn't get to hung up on the word "last".
    +1
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

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    The Last Trumpet

    by Thomas Ice


    Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

    - 1 Corinthians 15:51- 52

    It is not unusual for some posttribulationists to think that they have fired a silver bullet which they believe destroys the possibility of the pretribulational rapture teaching. That shot is usually thought to be in the form of the argument relating to " the last trumpet" as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Even though some think they have found a slick and simple solution to the timing of the rapture, they fail to realize that the New Testament teaching concerning this issue is more sophisticated than that.


    Scripture Or A Survival Guide?

    I recall years ago meeting and talking with the late Jim McKeever at a Christian Book Sellers convention in the early 90s. He made the " last trumpet" argument to me at that time. Later I read his book entitled Christian Will Go Through The Tribulation.[1] Judging from the title, I thought it would be a biblical treatise providing through reasoning to support the book' s title. It was any thing but that! He basically presented a single argument, (the last trumpet argument), in just a few pages and drew the following conclusion:

    If a Christian will put out of his mind all of his preconceived ideas about a Rapture occurring at the beginning of the Tribulation, and will look objectively at what the Scriptures have to say, I believe he will conclude that the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dead will be raised at the " last trumpet." In Revelation, at the LAST trumpet we see the beginning of Christ' s reign and the FIRST resurrection. Nothing could be simpler. There are no complications, if you accept the fact that the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation.[2]

    First of all, I arrived at my pretribulational beliefs through the study of the Bible, thus, I am not going just put them out of my mind when I am challenged to examine the beliefs of others. I doubt the Bereans put their understanding of the Bible out of their minds when " they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). So we are to do just the opposite of what McKeever and others like him when they suggest that we approach any issue with an open mind. I do not want to be open-minded when examining issues, I want to be biblically-minded.

    Second, we should not use a reductionist approach to Scripture, as McKeever suggests, when an issue involves a degree of sophistication. Such an approach is often used by opponents of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ. If one applies a reductionist approach to Scripture in relation to the Trinity and the hypostatic union, it would only lead to heretical conclusions.

    Third, McKeever frontloads his own approach to the matter by taking the phrase " last trumpet" and equating it with the seventh trumpet in Revelation (11:15- 19). (This is an erroneous assumption that I will deal with later.) McKeever says, " A significant thing is that verse 52 tells us WHEN all of this will occur, and this " at the LAST trumpet. . . . It would then seem reasonable to turn to the book of Revelation to find out something about this ' last' trumpet." [3]

    Other than a fraction of this single chapter, which very weakly argues for his " last trumpet" view, the rest of the book (17 chapters and about 350 pages) is a survival guide on how to make it alive through the tribulation. It just so happens that McKeever was a key player in the survivalist movement and he provides great detail, something lacking concerning His biblical arguments for posttribulationism, for how to prepare to survive the tribulation. I have often thought that if one really believes in posttribulationism, then, logically it should lead to survival preparation that would aid the church in going through the tribulation. I am sure that there are a few posttribulationists who have made some preparation, but such preparation appears to be generally lacking with those who hold this view.


    Biblical Trumpets

    Paul does teach in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the rapture will take place at the last trumpet. Do posttribulationist like McKeever have a point or is there a better explanation that takes into account the whole counsel of God on this matter? How does Paul' s last trumpet statement harmonize with pretribulationism?

    Throughout the Bible there are a number of trumpets being blown. For example in Numbers 10 there are trumpets being used in order to give commands to the people of Israel. For example, a trumpet is used to assemble the people for their journey and another trumpet that signals the start of their journey. There were trumpet sounds that would tell the people to stop and another sound telling them to assemble. Depending upon whether the people were moving are getting ready to move, the last trumpet would signal them to move or if moving, a second last trumpet sound would tell them when to stop. So even in this context, for example, there are multiple " last trumpets."


    Trumpets in Revelation

    Some midtribulationist and posttribulationists attempt to equate the " last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15- 18. Revelation 11:15, does not say specifically " last trumpet." Instead, the Revelation passage says " the seventh angel sounded." The seventh trumpet is the seventh in a series of judgments. The seventh trumpet is the last in a series of trumpet judgments but it is not the last judgment in the series, seven more judgments (bowls) follow.

    The " last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is singular, referring to one judgment, not a sequence of seven. Ellicott notes, " There are no sufficient grounds for supposing that there is here any reference to the seventh Apocalyptic trumpet (Rev. xi. 15), or to the seventh and last trumpet." [4] Henry Thiessen agrees:

    If he had thought of this trumpet as one of seven, he would undoubtedly have said something like the following: " For when the trumpets will be sounded and the time comes for the last one to sound, the dead in Christ shall be raised." At any rate, there is no ground for identifying the " trump" in 1 Cor. 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15. Those in the Revelation introduce fearful judgments upon the world and mankind; this one calls the dead in Christ out of their graves and summons both the ones raised and the believers still living into the Lord' s presence.[5]

    If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11. The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.


    1 Corinthians 15:52

    The context of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is very different than the context of Revelation 11:15. 1 Corinthians 15:52 better harmonizes with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which says, " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Both passages speak of the rapture and judgment is absent from both. The trumpet in both are the last or final command that the Lord gives to the church, resulting in the translation of all Believers. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost cites the following reasons as to why the " last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is different from any of the trumpet judgments in Revelation.

    There seem to be a number of observations which make it impossible for one to identify these two trumps. (1) The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . sounds before the wrath of God descends, while, . . . the chronology or Revelation indicates that the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath. . . . (2) The trumpet that summons the church is called the trump of God, while the seventh trump is an angel' s trumpet. . . . (3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets have preceded it so that it can not be said to be the last of a series. The trumpet that closes the tribulation period is clearly the last of a series of seven. (4) In 1 Thessalonians 4 the voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet summons the dead and the living and consequently is heard before the resurrection. In the Revelation, while a resurrection is mentioned (11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection, showing us that two different events must be in view. (5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians issues in blessing, in life, in glory, while the trumpet in Revelation issues in judgment upon the enemies of God. (6) In the Thessalonian passage the trumpet sounds " in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In Revelation 10:7 the indication is that the seventh trumpet shall sound over a continued period of time, probably for the duration of the judgments that fall under it, for John speaks of the angel that shall " begin to sound." . . . (7) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians is distinctly for the church. Since God is dealing with Israel in particular, and Gentiles in general, in the tribulation, this seventh trumpet, which falls in the period of the tribulation, could not have reference to the church without losing the distinctions between the church and Israel. (8) The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake in which thousands are slain, and the believing remnant that worships God is stricken with fear. In the Thessalonian passage there is no earth quake mentioned. . . . (9) While the church will be rewarded at the time of the rapture, yet the reward given to " thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" can not be that event. The rewarding mentioned in Revelation 11:18 is seen to take place on the earth after the second advent of Christ, following the judgment on His enemies. Since the church is rewarded in the air, following the rapture, these must be two distinct events.[6]


    Conclusion

    The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the final command that Christ provides for His church when He sends the signal to gather us together for the meeting in the sky that we know as the rapture. The contexts of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and that of Revelation 11 are totally different from one another. About the only similarity between the two is that the word " trumpet" is used in both. (Actually the word " trumpet" is not even used in Revelation 11:15- 19. The text actually says, " the seventh angel sounded" (11:15), clearly implying that a trumpet is sounded as noted in Revelation 8:2). The respective contexts are totally different. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, there is the context of things related to the church age, while Revelation 11 speaks of judgment during the tribulation. No such silver bullet argument exists for posttribulationism since I believe that it is clear that the New Testament does not teach such a view. Maranatha!

    *********
    Endnotes here: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...stTrumpet.html
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistos View Post
    Only the Bride is raptured...

    OT saints & Trib saints are resurrected at the 2nd coming.

    Two different events, three different groups of people.
    Scripture tells us the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God cry out when the 5th seal is broken. Revelation 6:9-11 This would include some of the OT saints.
    "The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the defense of my life; whom shall I dread?" Psalm 27:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by I Am's child View Post
    Scripture tells us the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God cry out when the 5th seal is broken. Revelation 6:9-11 This would include some of the OT saints.
    More likely the OT Saints will be resurrected sometime after the bowl judgements begin and not too long before the Second Coming.

    This particular topic is being discussed here - http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1405...The-Lamb/page5 - within the larger context of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve53 View Post
    More likely the OT Saints will be resurrected sometime after the bowl judgements begin and not too long before the Second Coming.

    This particular topic is being discussed here - http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1405...The-Lamb/page5 - within the larger context of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
    Thanks for the references. That certainly gives me something to think about. Daniel 11:36-12:2 is pretty compelling where it says "everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued" ((NASB) underlining by me). Revelation 6:9 does say "the souls of those slain" not all "souls of those slain". I just love all the layers in scripture. I'm sure when we get to heaven the answers to all our questions will be so obvious that we won't understand how we could have missed them.
    "The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the defense of my life; whom shall I dread?" Psalm 27:1

  12. #12

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    the last trumpet is the voice of Jesus - It is His voice that John hears as a trumpet speaking to Him in the revelation.

    the meaning of the word "last":


    Strong's Greek #2078
    2078 ἔσχατος [eschatos /es·khat·os/] adj. A superlative probably from 2192 (in the sense of contiguity); TDNT 2:697; TDNTA 264; GK 2274; 54 occurrences; AV translates as “last” 46 times, “lowest” twice, “uttermost” twice, “last state” twice, “ends” once, and “latter end” once. 1 extreme. 1a last in time or in place. 1b last in a series of places. 1c last in a temporal succession. 2 the last. 2a last, referring to time. 2b of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth. 2c of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest.
    The word last typically indicates at the end of something, perhaps at the end of this current age? Or in the last days? Or the last for the church? Or maybe it refers to Christ Himself being the last as in alpha and omega, the first and the last? I am not a Greek scholar so don't know for sure, but it might also be descriptive of the type of blast He sounds- the last trumpet voice of the Lord used to raise the dead?

    RT

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    Quote Originally Posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    The Last Trumpet

    by Thomas Ice


    Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

    - 1 Corinthians 15:51- 52

    It is not unusual for some posttribulationists to think that they have fired a silver bullet which they believe destroys the possibility of the pretribulational rapture teaching. That shot is usually thought to be in the form of the argument relating to " the last trumpet" as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Even though some think they have found a slick and simple solution to the timing of the rapture, they fail to realize that the New Testament teaching concerning this issue is more sophisticated than that.


    Scripture Or A Survival Guide?

    I recall years ago meeting and talking with the late Jim McKeever at a Christian Book Sellers convention in the early 90s. He made the " last trumpet" argument to me at that time. Later I read his book entitled Christian Will Go Through The Tribulation.[1] Judging from the title, I thought it would be a biblical treatise providing through reasoning to support the book' s title. It was any thing but that! He basically presented a single argument, (the last trumpet argument), in just a few pages and drew the following conclusion:

    If a Christian will put out of his mind all of his preconceived ideas about a Rapture occurring at the beginning of the Tribulation, and will look objectively at what the Scriptures have to say, I believe he will conclude that the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dead will be raised at the " last trumpet." In Revelation, at the LAST trumpet we see the beginning of Christ' s reign and the FIRST resurrection. Nothing could be simpler. There are no complications, if you accept the fact that the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation.[2]

    First of all, I arrived at my pretribulational beliefs through the study of the Bible, thus, I am not going just put them out of my mind when I am challenged to examine the beliefs of others. I doubt the Bereans put their understanding of the Bible out of their minds when " they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). So we are to do just the opposite of what McKeever and others like him when they suggest that we approach any issue with an open mind. I do not want to be open-minded when examining issues, I want to be biblically-minded.

    Second, we should not use a reductionist approach to Scripture, as McKeever suggests, when an issue involves a degree of sophistication. Such an approach is often used by opponents of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ. If one applies a reductionist approach to Scripture in relation to the Trinity and the hypostatic union, it would only lead to heretical conclusions.

    Third, McKeever frontloads his own approach to the matter by taking the phrase " last trumpet" and equating it with the seventh trumpet in Revelation (11:15- 19). (This is an erroneous assumption that I will deal with later.) McKeever says, " A significant thing is that verse 52 tells us WHEN all of this will occur, and this " at the LAST trumpet. . . . It would then seem reasonable to turn to the book of Revelation to find out something about this ' last' trumpet." [3]

    Other than a fraction of this single chapter, which very weakly argues for his " last trumpet" view, the rest of the book (17 chapters and about 350 pages) is a survival guide on how to make it alive through the tribulation. It just so happens that McKeever was a key player in the survivalist movement and he provides great detail, something lacking concerning His biblical arguments for posttribulationism, for how to prepare to survive the tribulation. I have often thought that if one really believes in posttribulationism, then, logically it should lead to survival preparation that would aid the church in going through the tribulation. I am sure that there are a few posttribulationists who have made some preparation, but such preparation appears to be generally lacking with those who hold this view.


    Biblical Trumpets

    Paul does teach in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the rapture will take place at the last trumpet. Do posttribulationist like McKeever have a point or is there a better explanation that takes into account the whole counsel of God on this matter? How does Paul' s last trumpet statement harmonize with pretribulationism?

    Throughout the Bible there are a number of trumpets being blown. For example in Numbers 10 there are trumpets being used in order to give commands to the people of Israel. For example, a trumpet is used to assemble the people for their journey and another trumpet that signals the start of their journey. There were trumpet sounds that would tell the people to stop and another sound telling them to assemble. Depending upon whether the people were moving are getting ready to move, the last trumpet would signal them to move or if moving, a second last trumpet sound would tell them when to stop. So even in this context, for example, there are multiple " last trumpets."


    Trumpets in Revelation

    Some midtribulationist and posttribulationists attempt to equate the " last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15- 18. Revelation 11:15, does not say specifically " last trumpet." Instead, the Revelation passage says " the seventh angel sounded." The seventh trumpet is the seventh in a series of judgments. The seventh trumpet is the last in a series of trumpet judgments but it is not the last judgment in the series, seven more judgments (bowls) follow.

    The " last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is singular, referring to one judgment, not a sequence of seven. Ellicott notes, " There are no sufficient grounds for supposing that there is here any reference to the seventh Apocalyptic trumpet (Rev. xi. 15), or to the seventh and last trumpet." [4] Henry Thiessen agrees:

    If he had thought of this trumpet as one of seven, he would undoubtedly have said something like the following: " For when the trumpets will be sounded and the time comes for the last one to sound, the dead in Christ shall be raised." At any rate, there is no ground for identifying the " trump" in 1 Cor. 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15. Those in the Revelation introduce fearful judgments upon the world and mankind; this one calls the dead in Christ out of their graves and summons both the ones raised and the believers still living into the Lord' s presence.[5]

    If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11. The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.


    1 Corinthians 15:52

    The context of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is very different than the context of Revelation 11:15. 1 Corinthians 15:52 better harmonizes with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which says, " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Both passages speak of the rapture and judgment is absent from both. The trumpet in both are the last or final command that the Lord gives to the church, resulting in the translation of all Believers. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost cites the following reasons as to why the " last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is different from any of the trumpet judgments in Revelation.

    There seem to be a number of observations which make it impossible for one to identify these two trumps. (1) The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . sounds before the wrath of God descends, while, . . . the chronology or Revelation indicates that the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath. . . . (2) The trumpet that summons the church is called the trump of God, while the seventh trump is an angel' s trumpet. . . . (3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets have preceded it so that it can not be said to be the last of a series. The trumpet that closes the tribulation period is clearly the last of a series of seven. (4) In 1 Thessalonians 4 the voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet summons the dead and the living and consequently is heard before the resurrection. In the Revelation, while a resurrection is mentioned (11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection, showing us that two different events must be in view. (5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians issues in blessing, in life, in glory, while the trumpet in Revelation issues in judgment upon the enemies of God. (6) In the Thessalonian passage the trumpet sounds " in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In Revelation 10:7 the indication is that the seventh trumpet shall sound over a continued period of time, probably for the duration of the judgments that fall under it, for John speaks of the angel that shall " begin to sound." . . . (7) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians is distinctly for the church. Since God is dealing with Israel in particular, and Gentiles in general, in the tribulation, this seventh trumpet, which falls in the period of the tribulation, could not have reference to the church without losing the distinctions between the church and Israel. (8) The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake in which thousands are slain, and the believing remnant that worships God is stricken with fear. In the Thessalonian passage there is no earth quake mentioned. . . . (9) While the church will be rewarded at the time of the rapture, yet the reward given to " thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" can not be that event. The rewarding mentioned in Revelation 11:18 is seen to take place on the earth after the second advent of Christ, following the judgment on His enemies. Since the church is rewarded in the air, following the rapture, these must be two distinct events.[6]


    Conclusion

    The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the final command that Christ provides for His church when He sends the signal to gather us together for the meeting in the sky that we know as the rapture. The contexts of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and that of Revelation 11 are totally different from one another. About the only similarity between the two is that the word " trumpet" is used in both. (Actually the word " trumpet" is not even used in Revelation 11:15- 19. The text actually says, " the seventh angel sounded" (11:15), clearly implying that a trumpet is sounded as noted in Revelation 8:2). The respective contexts are totally different. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, there is the context of things related to the church age, while Revelation 11 speaks of judgment during the tribulation. No such silver bullet argument exists for posttribulationism since I believe that it is clear that the New Testament does not teach such a view. Maranatha!

    *********
    Endnotes here: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...stTrumpet.html
    THANK YOU, that is what I was wanting to read an indepth explanation of the last trumpet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurryupJesus View Post
    THANK YOU, that is what I was wanting to read an indepth explanation of the last trumpet!
    It's a good one!
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbaganoosh View Post
    why would God deviate now?
    Since He fulfilled the spring feasts all in the same year of each other, I expect He will fulfill the fall feasts all in the same year of each other, as well...

    (see Hosea 6:3 [regarding Israel] - "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter [SPRING rain - He did that at His FIRST coming] and former [FALL] rain unto the earth [He will do that at His SECOND Coming]."

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbaganoosh View Post
    keep in mind, rosh hashana is a 2 day event due to the difficulty in predicting the new moon. this satisfies the no man knows the day rule.
    The "no man knows the day or the hour" type verses (Matthew 24:29-31, 36, [Isaiah 11:12], etc) are in the context of His Second Coming, to the earth, at the time of His prophesied/promised earthly Millennial Kingdom, and thus, the "idiom" would apply at that time.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedinthebeloved View Post
    Since He fulfilled the spring feasts all in the same year of each other, I expect He will fulfill the fall feasts all in the same year of each other, as well...
    Can you elaborate more on this,as to why you think the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same year of each other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by acceptedinthebeloved View Post
    The "no man knows the day or the hour" type verses (Matthew 24:29-31, 36, [Isaiah 11:12], etc) are in the context of His Second Coming, to the earth, at the time of His prophesied/promised earthly Millennial Kingdom, and thus, the "idiom" would apply at that time.
    No one knows the day or hour is actually a hebrew idiom for the feast of trumpets.

    Everyone knows the day Jesus returns for the second time. Daniel tells us exactly. To the day. Just count the days from the abomination of desolation.

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    J.D. Farag (the Calvary Chapel pastor in Hawaii) is currently going through a series of lectures/videos on "Why the Rapture of the Church Has to Happen Before the 7-Year Tribulation". Today's (Sept. 18) installment is part 7. In one of the earlier parts (part 4) he went into an in-depth explanation of the trumpets and the last trumpet (which are for Israel, which is/are for the Church). Unfortunately I cannot remember everything that he said, but I think that he also believes that the Rapture is going to happen in conjunction with Rosh Hashanah.

    Here is the link for part 4 (on the trumpets): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFGrzxO9Dgw

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    Can you elaborate more on this,as to why you think the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same year of each other?
    Well, for one thing, I'm saying, "as opposed to being spread out over [at least] a seven year period," as many are saying, when they plug in the general idea that Bubbaganoosh and HemiDave777 were talking about in their posts.

    Secondly, as I said, I believe Matthew 24:29-31, 36 [Isaiah 11:12] will be "fulfilled" at the time of His Second Coming (likely on/around Rosh Hashanah... Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement... and possibly involving the Sabbath between the two, known as "the Sabbath of Return" [Heb 4:9, Ex 31:17, Col 2:16-17]), for Israel... not our rapture (... and I believe Hosea 6:3 describes the "timing" of the Second Coming [FALL rains]... just as it describes the "timing" of the fulfillment of the SPRING feasts at His FIRST coming [SPRING rains]).

    Tabernacles (in the same year) may pertain somehow to the Millennial Kingdom... however, the 75 days (in most years) which fall between Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement and Hanukkah (the Feast of Dedication - John 10:22, Haggai 2:18 and this date referred to 4-5x in that chapter... and possibly Hab 2:2-3, which refers to "an appointed time [mow'ed - used only of three of the feasts (aka "harvest festivals"), I believe]... at the end" - see also Daniel 8:19, 11:27, 11:35 "the end shall be at the time appointed [mow'ed]) could correlate with Daniel's 1335 days (the "blessed" day) somehow ("blessed," as in Matthew 25:34 kingdom entrance, etc).

    Just some general thoughts, here... hope they make sense (at this late hour... again... )


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    Quote Originally Posted by JFrancisco View Post
    No one knows the day or hour is actually a hebrew idiom for the feast of trumpets.

    Everyone knows the day Jesus returns for the second time. Daniel tells us exactly. To the day. Just count the days from the abomination of desolation.
    Oops, sorry... somehow I overlooked your post.

    I understand your point, but Jesus wasn't saying "no one will EVER know [the timing of Second Coming]"... "Knoweth" is in the "present tense"... that is, He was saying, "no one presently knows the day or the hour of the Second Coming" (per context)... after His resurrection/ascension, I believe He knew.

    He's not saying He doesn't want them to know.

    He gave precise "time prophecies" in the OT which pertained to the very day He would ride into Jerusalem on the colt to announce Himself, and then said what He did in Luke 19:42 - "Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes." He wanted them to know. And He wants the future trib saints to "know"... and so He tells about the timing, in His Word (which will be understood by some, at the time of the trib - Daniel 12:10 [and likely Daniel 11:33, 35]). But in Matthew 24:36 (etc), regarding His Second Coming (per context), He's not trying to say, "You won't EVER know... no one will EVER know"... He's saying, "no one PRESENTLY knows" (and then goes on to show how those who disregard His Word will be caught off guard [at His Second Coming], just like in the days of Noah... BECAUSE they do not heed His Word, nor believe what His Word has to say [and we know the info is in there], and thus, will not be watching and ready). So yes, I believe the Second Coming will take place on or around Rosh Hashanah (the "fulfillment" of the fall feasts... for Israel... all in the same year of each other, just as His spring feasts were "fulfilled" all in the same year [Hosea 6:3]).

    Hope I'm making sense... it's late and I'm tired. (Me-----> )


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