Doesn't John 3:5 require baptism for salvation?

[faithandgrace]

I asked my fiance when he became born again and when he got baptized. He said when he was a child. I forget the exact age. I think he said he was baptized at age six or something. He said there was never a time when he didn't believe in Jesus Christ as his Savior and that since he's one of the Elect, he can't pinpoint a time that he "got saved" since he technically was saved even before he was born.

Yeah, I know.

I get what he's saying, but I'm not sure if it's accurate. I always thought baptizing infants and children was in vain because they don't have the knowledge to actually know of their sins, repent and accept Jesus Christ as savior. BUT, in his case, being the genius that he is, I can see him actually have the intellectual knowledge to realize and accept Christ at a very early age.

I didn't want to press the issue and question his salvation, but something just doesn't sound right to me. Am I missing something?

[matheteou]

I asked my fiance when he became born again and when he got baptized. He said when he was a child. I forget the exact age. I think he said he was baptized at age six or something. He said there was never a time when he didn't believe in Jesus Christ as his Savior and that since he's one of the Elect, he can't pinpoint a time that he "got saved" since he technically was saved even before he was born.

Yeah, I know.

I get what he's saying, but I'm not sure if it's accurate. I always thought baptizing infants and children was in vain because they don't have the knowledge to actually know of their sins, repent and accept Jesus Christ as savior. BUT, in his case, being the genius that he is, I can see him actually have the intellectual knowledge to realize and accept Christ at a very early age.

I didn't want to press the issue and question his salvation, but something just doesn't sound right to me. Am I missing something?

My daughter was 6 also (she's now 8), and there a many here who were saved at an early age. What seems to be bothering you is he is from a Calvinistic background, one of the Elect, which we all actually are, chosen before the foundation of the world. What sin(s) would such a young one repent of other than their "it's all about me" attitude (disobedience) and unbelief in God? Most adults (teens also) don't remember what their "sins" were at 5 or 6 as they are more aware of what is closer in time and what they "lusted after" then (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life).

Are there other concerns that you have about him other than his salvation testimony, like his walk, fruit, etc?

[His Bride]

A newborn baby is still a sinner because she or he was born with sin inherited through Adam. All of the sins which we commit throughout our lives come from that. I heard one pastor say it very clearly, " You sin because you are a sinner. You aren't a sinner because you sin." Does that make sense?

[Kliska]

I guess one of the factors for me is; did he ask to be baptized when he was that age, meaning did he willingly volunteer? If so, I think it appropriate. Also, since it really isn't the baptism by water that saves, then it isn't precisely a salvational issue; hence, it would be between him and the Lord if he ever feels drawn to be baptized again (not saying that you don't get to give him input, that's always helpful, but ultimately I believe he'd feel the tug of the Spirit if he were to "need" to be baptized again for whatever reason).

And, as long as he has true faith in Jesus, I don't think he'd have to pinpoint precisely when that started; for some of us who believed and faithed at a young age it is hard to be too precise.

[faithandgrace]

I guess one of the factors for me is; did he ask to be baptized when he was that age, meaning did he willingly volunteer? If so, I think it appropriate. Also, since it really isn't the baptism by water that saves, then it isn't precisely a salvational issue; hence, it would be between him and the Lord if he ever feels drawn to be baptized again (not saying that you don't get to give him input, that's always helpful, but ultimately I believe he'd feel the tug of the Spirit if he were to "need" to be baptized again for whatever reason).

And, as long as he has true faith in Jesus, I don't think he'd have to pinpoint precisely when that started; for some of us who believed and faithed at a young age it is hard to be too precise.

I understand that salvation and baptism are two separate things. But baptism is supposed to follow true conversion, and I was just wondering if it's actually possible to have true conversion as a small child. I too have believed in Christ ever since I can remember. I always considered myself a Christian, but I now know that I wasn't truly a follower of Christ. I didn't comprehend the full gospel until my teens. My fiance was baptized by his father, who I believe was a Baptist preacher at the time. I'll have to ask him if it was more the influence of his dad that led him to get baptized.

[faithandgrace]

My daughter was 6 also (she's now 8), and there a many here who were saved at an early age. What seems to be bothering you is he is from a Calvinistic background, one of the Elect, which we all actually are, chosen before the foundation of the world. What sin(s) would such a young one repent of other than their "it's all about me" attitude (disobedience) and unbelief in God? Most adults (teens also) don't remember what their "sins" were at 5 or 6 as they are more aware of what is closer in time and what they "lusted after" then (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life).

Are there other concerns that you have about him other than his salvation testimony, like his walk, fruit, etc?

I hate to think about it, but yeah, there are concerns. Nothing major, but it's the little things. All of his best friends are unbelievers, gambling, smoking, dating adultresses with tongue rings and actually mistaking them for Christ followers, etc. OK, perhaps TMI. He is a wonderful man in most ways and I admire him in a lot of ways. He's helped take care of his dying mother and his little brother. He prays with people at work, he treats everybody with the utmost respect. But I can't help but wonder if someone who'd had a true conversion would continue to smoke and gamble, etc. I have no doubt that he'd never reject the name of Jesus Christ, even if it cost him his life. But then I remember the scripture that says they claim to know God, but by their actions deny Him. I want to help him, but he always get's defensive and I think it stems from assuming he was saved his entire life. We're supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, right? And we're supposed to be open to Christian counsel? I dunno. I guess if he had "found Christ" as an adult, I'd think he was just backslidden or whatever. But now that he claims he accepted Christ as a child, I wonder if he truly accepted Him at all.

[Kliska]

I understand that salvation and baptism are two separate things. But baptism is supposed to follow true conversion, and I was just wondering if it's actually possible to have true conversion as a small child. I too have believed in Christ ever since I can remember. I always considered myself a Christian, but I now know that I wasn't truly a follower of Christ. I didn't comprehend the full gospel until my teens. My fiance was baptized by his father, who I believe was a Baptist preacher at the time. I'll have to ask him if it was more the influence of his dad that led him to get baptized.

Right, because he's the one that will have to make that call, as it is different for everyone. I was a believer since a very very young age; I was also a faither from a very young age, and that can be a different experience than some. There usually is no huge conversion experience when one has faithed in Christ from young age; no huge outward change, I should say, because you're a child and haven't embedded yourself in these huge outward sins, although still a sinner, they aren't as "showy" (forgive the expression, this can be hard to explain in words). It's all about; Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Following true faith at any age a Baptism is a good chance (if lead by the Spirit) to confess Christ before men, and share your faith publicly.

I do believe children are capable of conversion and faithing in Christ, and I think is supported by scripture, which may bring your mind some ease: Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

It's not a hard and fast answer, because it will be your fiance's call.

[Cindy S.]

I was baptized at around age 3 in a Christian Reformed (calvinistic) Church.

I don't remember anyone asking me if I loved Jesus and in fact, I don't remember the ceremony.

I didn't live for Jesus until my forties and got baptized as an adult after I made my own personal decision, one that my parents however good intended couldn't make for me.

And, Baptism doesn't save you!

[Tall Timbers]

But baptism is supposed to follow true conversion, and I was just wondering if it's actually possible to have true conversion as a small child.

I read from the bible and talk to my kids about surrendering their lives to Christ and living for Him regularly. Both my girls have said the sinner's prayer of redemption, they're currently 14 and 12, and did so about a year and a half ago. My boys are 10 and 8 right now and the 8 year old is asking about it. Just as with the girls, I don't jump right into guiding them through surrendering their life to Christ the moment they ask about it. I want them to truly understand what they're doing and I want them to live all of their life for Christ. I suspect that before this summer is out, my 8 year old will have surrendered his life to Christ. Even so, I continue to read to my daughters and share the salvation message, just in case.... and it's my job to raise them in Christ, of course. When we're older and accept Christ, in many but not all cases we've done plenty of screwing up and the salvation experience leaves a mark on us, whereas the younger person, though sinners, are relatively innocent, and aside from their surrender, not much is going to change, at least initially, and I should say that for most, but not all. What should occur of course, is the long term course of their lives, the choices they make, the things they do, and most importantly perhaps, when they're older and they fall or come upon hard times, they have that inner knowledge to turn to Jesus for help.

We live in a period of apostasy, the churches, I believe, are full of people who have never truly given their lives to Christ... and they're not just the ones sitting in the back rows... They're elders, preachers, leaders of the church...

My advice is to examine your fiance through the Word, through the Holy Spirit with whom you are sealed, and by your fiance's fruits. Keep your eyes wide open, because it is our nature to notice the good and discount the rest, especially when we have an emotional attachment to a person. You will know him by his fruits. And I pray that you will find Jesus in your fiance, and may you have a very blessed life together along with the saplings you produce and raise for the Lord.

[Grey Eagle]

.

We live in a period of apostasy, the churches, I believe, are full of people who have never truly given their lives to Christ... and they're not just the ones sitting in the back rows... They're elders, preachers, leaders of the church...

I think you hit the nail on the head there!

[FaithContender]

I read from the bible and talk to my kids about surrendering their lives to Christ and living for Him regularly. Both my girls have said the sinner's prayer of redemption, they're currently 14 and 12, and did so about a year and a half ago. My boys are 10 and 8 right now and the 8 year old is asking about it. Just as with the girls, I don't jump right into guiding them through surrendering their life to Christ the moment they ask about it. I want them to truly understand what they're doing and I want them to live all of their life for Christ. I suspect that before this summer is out, my 8 year old will have surrendered his life to Christ. Even so, I continue to read to my daughters and share the salvation message, just in case.... and it's my job to raise them in Christ, of course. When we're older and accept Christ, in many but not all cases we've done plenty of screwing up and the salvation experience leaves a mark on us, whereas the younger person, though sinners, are relatively innocent, and aside from their surrender, not much is going to change, at least initially, and I should say that for most, but not all. What should occur of course, is the long term course of their lives, the choices they make, the things they do, and most importantly perhaps, when they're older and they fall or come upon hard times, they have that inner knowledge to turn to Jesus for help.

I really like how you said all that, TT.

[MsSophie]

I read from the bible and talk to my kids about surrendering their lives to Christ and living for Him regularly. Both my girls have said the sinner's prayer of redemption, they're currently 14 and 12, and did so about a year and a half ago. My boys are 10 and 8 right now and the 8 year old is asking about it. Just as with the girls, I don't jump right into guiding them through surrendering their life to Christ the moment they ask about it. I want them to truly understand what they're doing and I want them to live all of their life for Christ. I suspect that before this summer is out, my 8 year old will have surrendered his life to Christ. Even so, I continue to read to my daughters and share the salvation message, just in case.... and it's my job to raise them in Christ, of course. When we're older and accept Christ, in many but not all cases we've done plenty of screwing up and the salvation experience leaves a mark on us, whereas the younger person, though sinners, are relatively innocent, and aside from their surrender, not much is going to change, at least initially, and I should say that for most, but not all. What should occur of course, is the long term course of their lives, the choices they make, the things they do, and most importantly perhaps, when they're older and they fall or come upon hard times, they have that inner knowledge to turn to Jesus for help.

TallTimbers, I respect the way you are handling that with your children. I think it's important for children to understand as well as they are capable what it means. When our daughter was eleven she began asking more in depth questions and also saying she wanted to be baptized. We had her study the book of John with our youth pastor and us for a two or three weeks.

[ingel]

My question to you is this: If baptism is "required" how do you explain the thief on the cross? Christ told him,"This day you will be with me in paradise." if they didn't take him off the cross, baptize him and put him back on the cross, how was he to be in paradise with Christ? i know this doesn't have any reference to the scriptures quoted above, but my husband was raised in a Church of Christ environment and this has been a past discussion of ours. He can't explain Jesus' comments away to me.

[Lynn]

I hate to think about it, but yeah, there are concerns. Nothing major, but it's the little things. All of his best friends are unbelievers, gambling, smoking, dating adultresses with tongue rings and actually mistaking them for Christ followers, etc. . . He is a wonderful man in most ways and I admire him in a lot of ways. He's helped take care of his dying mother and his little brother. He prays with people at work, he treats everybody with the utmost respect. But I can't help but wonder if someone who'd had a true conversion would continue to smoke and gamble, etc. . . then I remember the scripture that says they claim to know God, but by their actions deny Him. I want to help him, but he always gets defensive and I think it stems from assuming he was saved his entire life. We're supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, right? And we're supposed to be open to Christian counsel? I dunno. I guess if he had "found Christ" as an adult, I'd think he was just backslidden or whatever. But now that he claims he accepted Christ as a child, I wonder if he truly accepted Him at all.

faithandgrace, you raise some extremely strong red flags in this post. I hope that you plan to have a 'long' engagement with this person. It doesn't appear to me that the two of you are in strong agreement about the most important thing in life, our relationship with Jesus Christ and the transformation that results when we are genuinely born again. You say he gets 'defensive' and I'm thinking this negative behavior is going to be stronger after marriage, as most things are. While there is still time to do so, look carefully at what the two of you believe and how that translates into every day life (choice of leisure time activities, choice of friends, etc.) I see enough here in your post to suggest caution, because these are serious issues that could cause extreme unhappiness later on, once the knot's been tied.

[Tall Timbers]

I hate to think about it, but yeah, there are concerns. Nothing major, but it's the little things. All of his best friends are unbelievers, gambling, smoking, dating adultresses with tongue rings and actually mistaking them for Christ followers, etc. OK, perhaps TMI. He is a wonderful man in most ways and I admire him in a lot of ways. He's helped take care of his dying mother and his little brother. He prays with people at work, he treats everybody with the utmost respect. But I can't help but wonder if someone who'd had a true conversion would continue to smoke and gamble, etc. I have no doubt that he'd never reject the name of Jesus Christ, even if it cost him his life. But then I remember the scripture that says they claim to know God, but by their actions deny Him. I want to help him, but he always get's defensive and I think it stems from assuming he was saved his entire life. We're supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, right? And we're supposed to be open to Christian counsel? I dunno. I guess if he had "found Christ" as an adult, I'd think he was just backslidden or whatever. But now that he claims he accepted Christ as a child, I wonder if he truly accepted Him at all.

I'm in agreement with Lynn here... there are some really big red flags saying stop, stop. We are most easily deceived in our interpersonal relationships, especially with the one we lay our future hopes and dreams upon (until after the marriage). You've shared enough here to be counseled to use extreme caution when going forward. Only going by your pair of posts, there is at least the appearance that your fiance could be one of the multitudes, who, because he attends or belongs to a Christian church, believes he is a Christian, while never having met or surrendered their lives to our Lord Jesus.

And if he is one who is not conforming himself to the Word, then, FaithandGrace, he is not ready to be a husband and father, and there is very likely a wonderful man out there, for you, who is.

Be frank with him as the rest of your life will bear the results of your decisions in this matter. Never condescend, but say and ask whatever you must, and you will know him by his fruits.

[Tall Timbers]

double post

[faithandgrace]

Thanks everyone for your input. What you say makes perfect sense.

I need to pray incessantly for my fiance and this relationship.

[Lynn]

Thanks everyone for your input. What you say makes perfect sense.
I need to pray incessantly for my fiance and this relationship.

Glad that you are making it a serious priority in your prayers. Very young adults don't have the 'years' yet to see that when a marriage is undertaken, you are going to be 'in business' with this other person for LIFE. All of the many decisions that are faced in life (deciding which job to take & where to live, buying a house, raising children--how many, what kind of discipline to use, etc.) is STRONGLY impacted by the other person. Even if you are in agreement about the major issues of life already, marriage is what I refer to as God's 'school house' where He daily teaches us to become godly Christ-like people. On the other hand, if before marriage you already have some major concerns, the 'school house' can later become the 'wood shed'. Just take your time as you pray and evaluate this person as a potential life-time mate.

[HeIsEnough]

My question to you is this: If baptism is "required" how do you explain the thief on the cross? Christ told him,"This day you will be with me in paradise." if they didn't take him off the cross, baptize him and put him back on the cross, how was he to be in paradise with Christ? i know this doesn't have any reference to the scriptures quoted above, but my husband was raised in a Church of Christ environment and this has been a past discussion of ours. He can't explain Jesus' comments away to me.

Though that is a very good question, especially as it takes place in the previous dispensation, there is even a better one.

Acts 10

39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

It is my belief that the Lord did this on purpose, to expressly and emphatically annul any teaching that regeneration comes from water baptism. But as men many times do, we ignore what God has said and replace it with our own thoughts. God tells us that His word is living and active, and we don't ponder that enough. He has taken all contributions from man and removed them, and told us to preach the word, it has the power.

[Hootmon]

It is my belief that the Lord did this on purpose, to expressly and emphatically annul any teaching that regeneration comes from water baptism.